The birth date of Christ

[Deborah13]

Ok so now I'm curious; so would that birth date have been during Sukkot, I wonder what day Yom Kippur was?

 

[Sinthesis]

What is the 12240 day criteria?

 

[jocor]

Like history, prophecy repeats itself, but there's no reason this passage cannot also apply to Christ, as it quotes Psalms 2 which is quoted for both Christ, and all other sons of God (Revelation 2:26-28) who will rule and reign with him.

So for the time being, the subject here of this thread is to realize that this passage also applies to Christ and yields some valuable information as to the time of his birth.

The one main reason it cannot apply to Messiah is that Messiah was not born after the woman started labor pains as in Rev 12:2:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​

Messiah was born before the woman's pain came:

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
​

The birth pains represent the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:8, 21)

Mat 24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. NASB​

You would need to reject these Scriptures and take Rev 12 out of the prophetic timeline in order to have it speak of Messiah's birth.

 

[Butch5]

Ok so now I'm curious; so would that birth date have been during Sukkot, I wonder what day Yom Kippur was?

HI Deb,

This is very interesting, I understand that Christ was born on Rosh Hashanah, I looked up Tim's date of Sept 18, 1BC. and found that date was Rosh Hashanah.

 

[Deborah13]

HI Deb,

This is very interesting, I understand that Christ was born on Rosh Hashanah, I looked up Tim's date of Sept 18, 1BC. and found that date was Rosh Hashanah.

Hi Butch
Thanks!

 

[Deborah13]

Just some info. about this day. The Torah calls this day Yom Teruah, the first day of the 7th month. It literally means 'day of shouting'. Lev. 23:23-25, Num.29:1-6 and here....
Jos 6:5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
The word shout in this verse is verb and noun forms of the word "Teruah".
There is also something very different about this holy day. While the Torah gives at least one reason for all the other feast days, there is not reason given for this day, it appears it's just to rest.
So why is it called Rosh Hashanah, 'head of the year'.
“The names of the months came up with them from Babylonia.” (Jerusalem Talmud, Rosh Hashanah 1:2 56d)

If this day is the day our Lord was born it is truly a day of shouting. :woot
Psa 100:1 A Psalm of Thanksgiving. Shout to YHVH, all the earth.

 

[Gregg]

What is the 12240 day criteria?

Yes Sinthesis,

Tim needs to disclose the 'esoteric' source of his 12240 days if he is going to build a case around it.

Jacor is correct in that the male child of Rev 12:5 is not the Christ. I will begin a thread regarding Rev 12:5.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch
Thanks!

You're welcome, I was of the understanding that His birth was Sept 12, 3 BC. However, in that year Rosh Hashanah was on Sept 10th. It is possible that the calendars are a bit off so I am not rejecting the Sept 12 3 BC. date. I am not sure about the stars in the crown on Tim's date. I am interested to see if the two additional stars were in the crown that year. If they weren't then I don't see how Sept. 18 1 BC could be the date.

 

[Sinthesis]

The one main reason it cannot apply to Messiah is that Messiah was not born after the woman started labor pains as in Rev 12:2:

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​

Messiah was born before the woman's pain came:

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
​

The birth pains represent the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:8, 21)

Mat 24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. NASB​

You would need to reject these Scriptures and take Rev 12 out of the prophetic timeline in order to have it speak of Messiah's birth.

Rev 12:2 can, and does, apply to Jesus if we are willing to take Isa 66:7 in the spirit of Rom 4:17, where we know that the purpose of Israel was always to bring us the Messiah, even before Israel existed. This way of understanding also reveals the retroactive nature of the Gospel providing for the salvation of the OT faithful. So we can look at Israel as being delivered even before she was created, and her entire history one long period of travail until the promised sabbath rest in Christ.

 

[Gregg]

Rev 12:2 can, and does, apply to Jesus if we are willing to take Isa 66:7 in the spirit of Rom 4:17, where we know that the purpose of Israel was always to bring us the Messiah, even before Israel existed. This way of understanding also reveals the retroactive nature of the Gospel providing for the salvation of the OT faithful. So we can look at Israel as being delivered even before she was created, and her entire history one long period of travail until the promised sabbath rest in Christ.

see this thread regarding the male child:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...5-the-male-child-can-not-be-the-christ.54851/

 

[jocor]

HI Deb,

This is very interesting, I understand that Christ was born on Rosh Hashanah, I looked up Tim's date of Sept 18, 1BC. and found that date was Rosh Hashanah.

In 1 BC, Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah) was determined by visually spotting the 7th crescent moon of the year. As I understand it, there is no possible way for us to know if the crescent moon was spotted on Sept 18 or any other day. It may be a close estimate, but impossible to confirm.

 

[Butch5]

In 1 BC, Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah) was determined by visually spotting the 7th crescent moon of the year. As I understand it, there is no possible way for us to know if the crescent moon was spotted on Sept 18 or any other day. It may be a close estimate, but impossible to confirm.

Yes, as I said the calendars may not be accurate. Although it is my understanding (could be wrong) that modern computer programs that track the stars can a get fairly accurate date.

 

[jocor]

Yes, as I said the calendars may not be accurate. Although it is my understanding (could be wrong) that modern computer programs that track the stars can a get fairly accurate date.

How would they know when the new year began so they would know when the 7th month was? If Sept.18 was Trumpets, then the Abib new moon was around March 18. Have you determined that the new year started then as opposed to being postponed a month?

 

[reba]

You calendar guys. a question for ya... Peeking out once in while is the idea the Israelits had 2 calendars... one for every day then another for feast or something... Any idea why i might have such a thought.. (and never mind the obvious answer as to why )

 

[jocor]

Rev 12:2 can, and does, apply to Jesus if we are willing to take Isa 66:7 in the spirit of Rom 4:17, where we know that the purpose of Israel was always to bring us the Messiah, even before Israel existed. This way of understanding also reveals the retroactive nature of the Gospel providing for the salvation of the OT faithful. So we can look at Israel as being delivered even before she was created, and her entire history one long period of travail until the promised sabbath rest in Christ.

That is quite a stretch.2

 

[tim-from-pa]

About the 12240 days. No, the bible does not specifically say that … “and he liveth amongst us twelve thousand, two hundred and two score days” or anything like that. But if can be accurately deduced mathematically by defining upper and lower limits (if I may sound like a math teacher for a moment).

Now hold that thought for a moment as I say this much: that he died at Passover at full moon is non-negotiable. That he was born at the feast of Trumpets at new moon is based on the interpretation of Revelation 12, so again, I have no doubt the time of the year he was born. Rather, to pin the actual year is to use the 12240 days to find what candidate years these two known events happened. Let's get that straight. The 12240 has nothing to do with the time of the year he was born or died. It has to do with figuring the years BC and AD. If anyone reads too much in the 12240 days in determining the time of year he was born or died, then that makes me saying something I'm not.

We will use biblical passages to deduce the number of days, their limits, convert to lunar months, again a low and high limit.

1. The age of service: 30 years. When Jesus hit that age, he was due to begin his service, not before, and if after, not long at all. Jesus would not have said to his Father, “Hey, can you spare a week or two vacation, then I'll start?”. Once he hit 30, he had to prepare immediately to set out, perhaps ordaining his baptism not long after that. But he was 30.
   
   
2. Days in 30 years = 30 x 365.2422= 10957 days, but Jews go by lunar months so to find the nearest lunar month is 10957/29.530588=371.05. So he would be “30” no sooner than 371 lunar months later 371 x 29.530588 = 10956. This is close, so we see that 371 lunar months is very close to 30 solar years. So 10956 is the lower limit of starting his ministry in days and if he started later, not much.
   
   
3. He ministered for 3.5 years: (Luke 4:24-27) This was foreshadowed. In the bible, 3.5 years again is not usually the solar years, but based on lunar months. Because of Daniel and Revelation, there's two limits that I can see: the more common 1260 days, and perhaps 1290 days (c.f. The two witnesses, and the time of persecution in the end times, aka prophetic years). In solar years, the former is 3.45 years, and the latter is 3.53years. So the lower limit of ministry is 1260 days, the upper 1290 days.
   
   
4. Lower limit age + lower limit ministry = 12216 days
   
   
5. Lower limit age + upper limit ministry = 12246 days
   
   
6. Converting to lunar months: 12216/29.530588 = 413.7 months approx from his new moon birth. This is past full moon, so he had to live to the next full moon. 12246/29.530588=414.7 lunar months. That's too long, and to go to the next full moon after that is yet another 3.5 weeks (a 3.5 week “vacation” past his 30th birthday is the only way this can be accomplished).
   
   In other words, he had to live at least 413.7 months, but no more than 414.7 months. That means being born at new moon and dying at full moon, he lived 414.5 lunar months.
   
   
7. 414.5 x 29.530588 = 12240 days (to the nearest day) Q.E.D.
   

Later, I'll give some scripture that hints at 12240 or multiples thereof.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The bible is a coded book, above and beyond the straightforward interpretation of the text in that deeper information can be found within hidden places. One of which is gematria. Those who don't know what the word means can look it up as a homework assignment tonight.

The number 12240 has several references, and can be related to other numbers as well. Some examples:

1) 12240 = 34 x 360 or exactly 34 prophetic years.
2) Compare verse John 21:10-11, this number is related to Christ and being fishers of men.
3) There's a single verse in scripture with gematria of 12240: Acts 13:41 which is the work of Christ.

Even extra-biblical sources, not the least of which is the Great Pyramid (which is not the only one), has about a 3' geometric triangle formed from a step that some dubbed the "Christ Triangle" with a hypotenuse of 33.512 (Pyramid) inches. Converted to days is 12240. Before we dismiss that as hogwash, the same angle of the descending passageway, which is the angle of this triangle, when laid on the north face of the pyramid , that angle north of east points to Bethlehem. Not everyone considers the pyramid Egyptian, but some call it "the pillar of Enoch".

But extra-biblical sources aside, I think there's definitely a case for a biblical 12240 days (as opposed to say, 12238 or something just close to it) considering that the bible is replete with numbers, and meanings attached to those numbers. Everything down to the distance, time, and measurement was already determined by God.

 

[Sparkey]

Well, I like it. Mostly because I can see the shepherds out with their flocks in September. Also because it lines up with the holy days. As far as the astronomical and "extra-biblical"? Tim, I am happy to accept you as an authority. You are far more learned in this than I am and I'll tell ya, I'm no slouch when it comes to research, but nowhere close to you (hehehe, well - on this subject anyways <<-- my pride made me say that !).

Thanks! And thank you for continuing to explain. Knowledge weighs nothing so pile it on, brother, pile it on!

 

[Edward]

The bible is a coded book, above and beyond the straightforward interpretation of the text in that deeper information can be found within hidden places. One of which is gematria. Those who don't know what the word means can look it up as a homework assignment tonight.

The number 12240 has several references, and can be related to other numbers as well. Some examples:

1) 12240 = 34 x 360 or exactly 34 prophetic years.
2) Compare verse John 21:10-11, this number is related to Christ and being fishers of men.
3) There's a single verse in scripture with gematria of 12240: Acts 13:41 which is the work of Christ.

Even extra-biblical sources, not the least of which is the Great Pyramid (which is not the only one), has about a 3' geometric triangle formed from a step that some dubbed the "Christ Triangle" with a hypotenuse of 33.512 (Pyramid) inches. Converted to days is 12240. Before we dismiss that as hogwash, the same angle of the descending passageway, which is the angle of this triangle, when laid on the north face of the pyramid , that angle north of east points to Bethlehem. Not everyone considers the pyramid Egyptian, but some call it "the pillar of Enoch".

But extra-biblical sources aside, I think there's definitely a case for a biblical 12240 days (as opposed to say, 12238 or something just close to it) considering that the bible is replete with numbers, and meanings attached to those numbers. Everything down to the distance, time, and measurement was already determined by God.

Thanks brother! That's cool and good info. For those who may think they see a mistake with the 360...the old time jewish years were based on a 360 day year, not 365.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Tim, I can't even pretend to really understand it really. But getting enough that it's interesting and I'm doing some extra reading too.