The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The False teachers of the antichrist, and his followers, have taken one of Gods eternal precious truthes of scripture, that of Gods foreknowledge, and have wrested it to mean, that God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation.

This concept is extremely dishonoring to the God who created the heavens and the earth, and all therein, simply because it leaves Gods acquisition of knowledge at mans whim and mercy..Instead of the Great God Eternal knowing all things by reason of His Divine decree, that He purposed..God recieves knowledge of ones reponses only after having observed what the person has done..hence God was enlighten by His creature..

This is in direct conflict with job 21:

22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.

These wicked false teachers say God foreknows people and things because He looked down before time and saw them coming or acting, So Gods creatures give Him knowledge and increases His understanding; open theism is really at fault in this regards, one of the most blasphemous cults in the world today, with their ungodly view of God..but they are not alone by a long shot..there are many other false religons as the freewillers who teach this blasphemy..and though hand join in hand, they shall not go unpunished.prov 11:

21Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.

jude:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Re: The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

I think my next thread will be titled..."The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination"....or something to that effect




HyperCalvinism
God made me do it
By Wm Tipton

You've heard the old line that 'the devil made me do it', I’m sure, but we all know that is just silliness, the devil cant 'make' us do anything.
This group, hyper calvinists, has been around for a while, but is merely a sub-sect of the faith, thankfully.
Don’t mistake them for regular Calvinists who simply take predestination a bit too far. This particular group has removed all responsibility for their own sin from themselves, and instead of placing it where it might belong, on our sin nature, they put the guilt for OUR sin and disobedience right at Gods feet.

Simply put, this doctrine focuses on Gods sovereignty so greatly as to remove mans responsibility completely for his own sin..."GOD made me do it", so to speak.

What they do is use the fact that God is 'sovereign', a fact that we all acknowledge, to say that God has 'ordained' every act you and I will ever commit. They believe that it was not only Gods 'choice' that Adam sinned and man fell, but that God was in control of the whole thing, meaning that He 'forced' Adam to fall, for all intents and purposes. Now, they wont word it quite as directly as I do.

This group believes, from my understanding, that their spirits 'cannot' sin, thus thier spirits are not accountable for the sins that their flesh commits. If you ask them they will get into long-winded explainations trying to smokescreen what they believe in all of this, but the bottom line is that they believe that 'God made them do it' in regard to sin and disobedience.

What it breaks down to with these is that man has no real 'free will' and is only acting on what God has ordained. Man can do nothing that he isn't being made to by Gods sovereignty, and thus man is not actually guilty of the sin, but God must be as HE would be the one forcing man to commit it. They believe that every act you ever commit, whether good or evil, was set into motion by God Himself, and they will distort whatever scriptures they need to to make this lie seem palatable.

Here are some warning signs to look for, dear brethren.

- God, not man, is the 'source' of sin and evil (because God has supposedly 'ordained' our sin, even our fall) and man has no actual choice or will in the matter. God not only chose for man to fall, but literally is causing YOU to commit every sin you ever have and will. It isn’t our fault that we sin, but God’s.

Only Calvinists are supposedly the 'elect' and only they are 'christian'.

Here is a quote from a forum poster...

“...I am proposing that God purposed and decreed sin and Adams fall ...â€

This is the nonsense that these folks push. Instead of God foreknowing that Adam would sin, and therefore working out a plan of salvation for Adam, these folks say GOD is the origin of sin and disobedience. Of course, getting them to say it like that would probably be close to impossible, but it is factual.

And here another:

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€

Here is our response to the quote above:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)

foreknowledge
G4268
prog'-no-sis
From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Those people He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son.
It is a two step proceedure, not one.
God ‘foreknows’ from the foundation of the world, He then predestinates those whom He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son. If it were as these folks assert, there is no need in there being the foreknowing step...only predestinating would be mentioned or necessary.

So instead of God foreknowing Adams sin, and then putting a method of salvation into place for those whom He foreknows, hypercalvinists say that GOD is the one who made Adam sin and fall.
One problem with this nonsense, and there are many, is that this means that fully and finally GOD has sinned against Himself thru man. Preposterous.

Heres yet another, more obscene statement by another person of this horrid fallacy;

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

God’s word also says this;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 EMTV)

It seems pretty clear from God’s word that He will not cause anyone to sin or ‘tempt’ with evil. This scripture is very clear that it is WE who sin...who choose to sin...and it is not God who causes us to do so. But of course, expect the hypercalvinist to simply explain this passage away.

This group is quite dangerous in that their views must remove YOUR responsibility for YOUR sin. God would be the one making you sin from eternity past and as such you cannot be held accountable in that as the ‘elect’ you cannot ever go to hell, even if you were to blaspheme His Holy Spirit.
Again, they probably wont admit most of this, but it is only logical based on what they believe.

Currently this writing is just to warn against this heresy so that the brethren might be aware of the danger of this “christian†cult who blames God sovereigness for their own failings and sin.


2.0

This is a comment from a group of 'hyper' predestination types that believe that God ordains and controls EVERY act, thought, breath, etc that every man and woman will ever take part of in their lives.

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€

What this also means is that that unforgivable sin we all know about, whether we believe it can be committed by Christians or not isnt the issue, blasphemy of His precious Holy Spirit....would ACTUALLY be GOD doing so THRU man.

God supposedly 'controls' man, meaning his mouth as well as his body and mind, so that we must conclude that, even if they dismiss it somehow, that these heretics are actually claiming that GOD not only rapes children thru man since man doesnt control his own actions and sins, but also BLASPHEMES His own Holy Spirit by ordaining and controlling man to do so.
I actually got one to admit he believes just this..

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

That particular person lays out very clearly what this error believes

beloved57:
"You dont have a freewill, in fact your a robot, a human robot, your whole life has been scripted for you by God.. "

Supposedly man has no will at all to even commit sin. Apparently we can ONLY do what has been 'scripted' for us, therefore GOD is ultimately the one who causes us to sin....'God made me do it"

unbelievable...

 

[savedbygrace57]

follower of christ:

I think my next thread will be titled..."The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination"....or something to that effect

I see you merely reacted, but did you consider the points i made as to why i called it a blasphemous view ?

review the points and show me what you disagree with scripturally..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The False teachers of the antichrist, and his followers, have taken one of Gods eternal precious truthes of scripture, that of Gods foreknowledge, and have wrested it to mean, that God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation.

Oh please
WE look at the EVIDENCE presented in the WHOLE word of God and CONCLUDE that our God is NO monster up there cranking out souls on an assembly line stamping 'Heaven' or 'hell' on their heads, but DOES INDEED give man some CHOICE in the matter.

WITHOUT CHOICE, and I realize its hard for some to grasp this concept, CREATION HAS NO MEANING !

Think about that statement REALLY hard, SBG57

This concept is extremely dishonoring to the God who created the heavens and the earth,

WRONG !
It is actually honoring Him FAR more than the Puppet Master Doctrine could EVER do !
WE know that God is SO sovereign that He CAN allow man to have a LOT of freedom, including freedom of CHOICE, yet mans choices CANNOT overcome GODS will.

This "Puppet Master God' is SO unbelievably weak and feeble minded that He has to micromanage EVERYthing because apparnently if ONE free choice is allowed His ENTIRE plan falls apart :crazy

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

follower of christ:

I think my next thread will be titled..."The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination"....or something to that effect

I see you merely reacted, but did you consider the points i made as to why i called it a blasphemous view ?

review the points and show me what you disagree with scripturally..

REread my post

And Im responding directly as I type this. Im breaking my response into two smaller posts.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

and all therein, simply because it leaves Gods acquisition of knowledge at mans whim and mercy.

"aquisition"....thats a VERY nice attempt there, S...but that is HARDLY what we believe.
God CREATED MAN FOR fellowship with Him...BUT....because man has FREE WILL TO CHOOSE, many men CHOOSE evil and to reject what they were CREATED FOR.
They CHOOSE evil and REBEL AGAINST God and what He would have for them.
This 'acquisition' thing is just semantics to make it sound like WE are saying that God just popped up one day and ruined OUR plans...that is HARDLY what WE believe

These wicked false teachers say God foreknows people and things because He looked down before time and saw them coming or acting, So Gods creatures give Him knowledge and increases His understanding;

Let me tell you right here and now that your TONE is offensive.
So IF you want to play this game using this offensive tone and language, dont whine when we reciprocate....kwim ?

AGAIN...we can SEE words such as FOREKNEW in scripture and see what God SAYS;

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

TWO steps there, friend.
HE knew beforehand...foresaw....and THEN predestinated those who would CHOOSE to become conformed to the Image of His Son.
He did NOT simply predestinate anyone to become conformed to the image of His Son....He FOREKNEW/FORESAW FIRST !

 

[Drew]

Rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The False teachers of the antichrist, and his followers, have taken one of Gods eternal precious truthes of scripture, that of Gods foreknowledge, and have wrested it to mean, that God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation.

Even though I do not agree with your view on pre-destination, I do agree that it is probably incorrect to use the argument that "God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation".

But you should not engage in the demonizing rhetoric that you used in your previous life here, and as you demonstrate on other boards on which you participate. Fine, express your view, but please do not adopt this strong rhetorical stance. If your point is actually correct, you should be able to make the case without suggesting that those who disagree with you are minions of Satan.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Foreknowledge denotes a foreunion

The False teachers of our day have corrupted the word of God, in order to deify man, and make his actions the final cause of salvation, instead attributing Salvation to the Lord, The Triune God..

One way they do this is by corrupting the meaning of words, like the one foreknowledge of God. instead of understanding this to be an action of Gods heart toward a chosen people, they proclaim it as God viewing all men to act upon their actions, God, responding to mans actions and whims..

The word foreknowledge however, when used of the elect as in rom 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel

The word is made up of the greek word

ginôskô, which means an intimate knowing :

Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

4) to become acquainted with, to know

This is interesting, because the word is expressing the knowing of Christ of His church, His bride, His wife..

He knows us [the elect] as His wife, an intimate knowledge of..for the church, his body, is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh..

So those foreknown are those who were in a fore-union with Christ from before the world began..

remember Mary when she was pregnant, and Joseph had abstained from sexual intimacy

matt 1:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS

The word there is the same greek root word gnisko..but notice how the niv translates the word :

25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

You see, the word has that meaning, that of a union..so to foreknow, when speaking of those the Lord foreknew, its a fore-union, denoting intimacy..

Now, The Lord Jesus Christ knows his bride, his church that way..because we are members of His body..1 cor 12:

14For the body is not one member, but many.

Christ is the head of the one body..

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

col 1:

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

eph 5:

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body

So Christ knows his body because its in union with him..he knows each part of his body intimately, and cares for it or them..

Now, i hope its understood why Jesus will say in the last day in judgment, matt 7:


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Guess what ? I never knew you..the same greek word gnisko..Jesus is saying in essence, I never was in a union with you, I never had a fore-union with you, you never were my bride or part of my body, I never knew you like that..

Thats what foreknows means, it doesn't mean God or Jesus foreknowing anyones actions..but those who are fore loved intimately, in fore-union with him, his elect bride, wife given to him before the world began..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

The False teachers of our day have corrupted the word of God, in order to deify man, and make his actions the final cause of salvation, instead attributing Salvation to the Lord, The Triune God..

Oh blah.
Listen, S...WE are NOT going to stop talking and spreading the TRUTH here simply because YOU dont agree and cant handle the TRUTH.
So you can bombard this forum with your false doctrine and we WILL respond in kind. Its how forums like this work...deal with it.

NO ONE is deifying man by agreeing with Gods plan and word that man DOES HAVE A CHOICE

YOU are making our God some control freak who cannot stand for anyone to have a CHOICE.

And AGAIN....WITHOUT CHOICE CREATION IS WITHOUT MEANING !

I see you DIDNT take a moment to THINK about that statement, or find out how it applies to the scriptures.
Your mistake.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

TWO steps there, friend.
HE knew beforehand...foresaw....and THEN predestinated those who would CHOOSE to become conformed to the Image of His Son.
.

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

Oh blah.

Thats all you can say, because you cannot handle the truth, you run from it..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

Oh blah.

Thats all you can say, because you cannot handle the truth, you run from it..

huh
see *I* remember posting MORE than that in that post.
So maybe YOU need to learn to READ what IS posted

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

TWO steps there, friend.
HE knew beforehand...foresaw

There is a greek word for forseeing, its here:

proora?:

to foresee

it means to see before..

Paul uses this word here to denote foreseeing something Gal 3:


And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

acts 2 31

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So you are in error..to foreknow does not mean foreseeing something..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

TWO steps there, friend.
HE knew beforehand...foresaw

There is a greek word for forseeing, its here:

proora?:

to foresee

it means to see before..

Paul uses this word here to denote foreseeing something Gal 3:

So what ?
There are a variety of synonymous words that can be used to say something.
"divorce" for instance has probably half a dozen words used to speak about it in the NT.
There is only ONE word, however, that is literally speaking about the divorce writ, if memory serves.
Your point is pointless, Im afraid.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

acts 2 31

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

So you are in error..to foreknow does not mean foreseeing something..

Sorry poster but I'll take the scholars word over YOURs any day ;)

G4267
??????????
progin?sk?
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

Heres a couple verses where the word is used that SHOW that it DOES have a facet of 'foreknowing'...

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on guard, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being carried away by the error of the wicked;
(2 Peter 3:17 EMTV)

Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
(Acts 26:5 KJV)

So sorry about your luck, S....the word DOES have an understanding of 'foreknowing'....knowing BEFOREHAND>...

;)

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

So what ?

So you are in error and teach contrary to scripture..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I do agree that it is probably incorrect to use the argument that "God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation".

I wouldnt say that that is exactly how I believe.
'using' His foreknowledge makes it sound as if something were by chance and God didnt see it coming UNTIL He 'foresaw' it.
I believe God is outside temporal time and thus 'foreknows' all in a far deeper sense that the word 'foreknows' can actually convey. Words are pathetically weak and probably will never capture what God is because they are not capable of doing so, but 'foreknows', being what it is, is sufficient in presenting the idea that God does 'foreknow'.

When we see that He also 'predestinates' those whom He 'foreknew' a broader picture is painted that helps us understand a little more of the depth involved in the concepts that the writer is trying to convey.

What I simply do not believe is that God doesnt allow choice on mans part.
Instruction (as presented in scripture) by its very nature PRESUMES the ability to CHOOSE.
As hard as it seems for some others here to grasp that concept, it simply is fact.
We dont tell our children to wash the dishes then hold their hands for them to force them to wash them. We expect that THEY will make the CHOICE to do as we have instructed.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

So what ?

So you are in error and teach contrary to scripture..

So far youve yet to make your case or prove that mine is in error.
I hope this thread isnt going to deteriorate into a slew of hollywood one liners that should be reserved for Schwarzenegger Box office hits...

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

HE knew beforehand...foresaw....and THEN predestinated those who would CHOOSE to become conformed to the Image of His Son.

Now all you need to do is show us where or what scripture says that" God predestined some because He saw they would choose to be conformed to the image of His Son.".

 

[toddm]

Well, FOC, it seems that we have finally found a point of disagreement.

I agree w/ savedbygrace here. His point is that using the word "foreknowledge" in a sense of "God sees who will make a choice to follow Him" has a major flaw - it puts the ultimate decision on MAN, not GOD. Not matter how you dice it, God's decision to save one is now based on a condition and is therefore reactionary.

Now, though I would label myself a Calvinist, I do not go so far as to hyper-calvinism. God does not ordain sin, but he does certainly allow and even uses it to bring about His will and purpose. Furthermore, God does not condemn people to hell because people stand ALREADY condemned (John 3:16-18).

The problem w/ free will is this - no one is really and truly free. Our "Free Will" is governed by things that we naturally lean to or are inclined toward. For example, if we are presented with 2 kinds of dessert - one being our favorite and another being a least favorite - then even though we have the choice to choose the lesser favorite dessert, we won't. Likewise, we cannot choose God because our free will is going to always choose that which it desires - as sinful people w/ a sinful nature the choice is obvious: to sin. We do not have a natural inclination to choose the things of God due to our fallen, sinful nature. God must put a NEW nature in us before we can choose God. The NEW nature (God's Spirit in us) will now have a new desire - to follow God, not our sinful nature. This is why there is that internal battle that Paul describes in Romans 7.

This is an analogy I came up with and though it may not be perfect, I feel it demonstrates my point effectively. Ephesians 2:1 says that we were spiritually DEAD, not ill, but dead. I liken this to a drown victim lying helplessly at the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in, brings the victim to the surface (without any help from the victim), and resuscitates the victim. In this situation, the lifeguard did 100% of the work in bringing the victim back to life. Upon being resuscitated, the victim begins to cough and slowly opens his eyes to sees the lifeguard that he hadn't even noticed before. Now, this is called compatibilism - the lifeguard did not force the victim to cough and open his eyes, but the victim would have never been able to do this on his own without the resuscitation from the lifeguard.

Likewise, we are the lifeless victims in the pool (world), God must dive in, bring us out, and breathe life into us. Upon receiving life, we open our eyes to see Him and we respond.

On the word "foreknowledge", this word implies much more than merely foreseeing, as savedbygrace has already pointed out. Knowledge in this sense is the kind of intimate knowledge that a husband has with a wife. It is much more than knowing certain facts (ie, Bob will choose to follow Jesus on January 10, 2010). It is a deep, relational, intimate knowledge that God has for us...and it is out of that knowledge that He predestines us. The key questions to consider here are: 1) Who is in control of our eternal destination if it is up to us to make a decision, THEN based on that decision God moves? Is not God merely being reactive here?? and 2) Given our sinful nature, how would we ever even be able to make that choice to begin with?? I personally THANK GOD that it is not up to me, but that He does ALL the work in bringing me to Him!

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Well, FOC, it seems that we have finally found a point of disagreement.

Thats fine, T
As long as we're not going to do the ad hominems with this 'wicked ones' crap, Im good to go

I agree w/ savedbygrace here.

Again, thats fine. My views arent contingent on what S believes or anyone agreeing

His point is that using the word "foreknowledge" in a sense of "God sees who will make a choice to follow Him" has a major flaw - it puts the ultimate decision on MAN, not GOD. Not matter how you dice it, God's decision to save one is now based on a condition and is therefore reactionary.

Sorry but I presented VERY clear scriptures that show plainly that the word DOES have a meaning of simply 'foreknowing'.
Youre going to have to take that one up with God, Im afraid.

And the ultimate choice IS on man to either run TO his Creator or REBEL against Him.
Do you honestly believe, todd, that God was looking for a bunch of drones who only love Him BECAUSE He forced us to ?
Is THAT the God you worship and follow ?

Let me state this one more time and hopefully some here will begin to comprehend it..

WITHOUT CHOICE CREATION HAS NO MEANING

The problem w/ free will is this - no one is really and truly free.

nono, friend...NO One here said that we are 'truly free'....lets keep the apples out of the orange basket here.
*IF* we were 'truly free' then we'd have choices BEYOND heaven or hell....which we dont
We DO have the freedom to CHOOSE between those TWO destinations, however...and that only after the Father has begun to draw the man.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Our "Free Will" is governed by things that we naturally lean to or are inclined toward. For example, if we are presented with 2 kinds of dessert - one being our favorite and another being a least favorite - then even though we have the choice to choose the lesser favorite dessert, we won't.

And I know from experience that foods I USED to hate I NOW love and its because *I* decide one day to try it and keep trying it and then developed a taste for it.
The first few times I tried Sushi I hated it...ask my wife.
But I kept at it and now I LOVE the stuff and I even have learned to make it myself.

So even this is affected by conscious CHOICE