The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

WITHOUT CHOICE CREATION HAS NO MEANING

Do you have a scripture for this statement ?

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Likewise, we cannot choose God because our free will is going to always choose that which it desires - as sinful people w/ a sinful nature the choice is obvious: to sin.

Wrong.
UNtil God draws a man we cannot choose.
After the Father begins to draw a man that part of the mans spirit is awakened and choice is presented that was not available to him prior to that moment.
When the Father draws WE choose to either remain in rebellion or to cling to our Creator.
THAT is the PURPOSE of ALL of this, friend..

We do not have a natural inclination to choose the things of God due to our fallen, sinful nature.

Until the Father draws a man his ONLY inclination is toward the fallen, sinful nature.
Once that drawing has begun a new choice is presented...one of continuing in rebellion or running to the One who draws.
And thus the purpose for mans creation.

God must put a NEW nature in us before we can choose GodThe NEW nature (God's Spirit in us) will now have a new desire - to follow God, not our sinful nature. This is why there is that internal battle that Paul describes in Romans 7..

Did you stumble there because it sounds like you agree with me

Without choice there would be NO internal battle at all.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

WITHOUT CHOICE CREATION HAS NO MEANING

Do you have a scripture for this statement ?

Do you have a scripture for this statment ?

The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

If not, play this silly game with someone else.

 

[Ret]

This is an analogy I came up with and though it may not be perfect, I feel it demonstrates my point effectively. Ephesians 2:1 says that we were spiritually DEAD, not ill, but dead. I liken this to a drown victim lying helplessly at the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in, brings the victim to the surface (without any help from the victim), and resuscitates the victim. In this situation, the lifeguard did 100% of the work in bringing the victim back to life. Upon being resuscitated, the victim begins to cough and slowly opens his eyes to sees the lifeguard that he hadn't even noticed before. Now, this is called compatibilism - the lifeguard did not force the victim to cough and open his eyes, but the victim would have never been able to do this on his own without the resuscitation from the lifeguard.

Appreciate the analogy tod...it's the same with just plain breathing. Does God FORCE anyone to breathe? What does the body do when there is 'NO AIR' or 'can't breathe'...? They start gasping for breath...and not by choice but because that is the way God made them/us in the first place...!

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

This is an analogy I came up with and though it may not be perfect, I feel it demonstrates my point effectively. Ephesians 2:1 says that we were spiritually DEAD, not ill, but dead. I liken this to a drown victim lying helplessly at the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in, brings the victim to the surface (without any help from the victim), and resuscitates the victim. In this situation, the lifeguard did 100% of the work in bringing the victim back to life. Upon being resuscitated, the victim begins to cough and slowly opens his eyes to sees the lifeguard that he hadn't even noticed before. Now, this is called compatibilism - the lifeguard did not force the victim to cough and open his eyes, but the victim would have never been able to do this on his own without the resuscitation from the lifeguard.

Appreciate the analogy tod...it's the same with just plain breathing. Does God FORCE anyone to breathe? What does the body do when there is 'NO AIR' or 'can't breathe'...? They start gasping for breath...and not by choice but because that is the way God made them/us in the first place...!

eh..not buying it.

Instinctive reflexes are God given, for certain, but that has nothing to do with REAL choice.
And frankly, it is quite possible to overcome the survival instinct and take ones life, as Im sure we all already know...its called suicide. Focusing on the breathing reflex doesnt nullify scriptural concepts or the reason for mans creation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

Sorry but I presented VERY clear scriptures that show plainly that the word DOES have a meaning of simply 'foreknowing'.

Thats fine, but the problem you impose is that you take this simple meanng of foreknowing by God to imply that He foreknew because He was enlightened by seeing something would happen before Hand, thats blasphemy, abstractedly speaking, Gods simple foreknowing is because He determined it to happen, so , of course He foreknows duh..

acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

So when using that definition of foreknowledge, its based upon His determinate counsel and foreknowledge..

again this is stressed by peter in acts 4:

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

So God foreknew the subjects in vs 27 would do what they did, because His counsel determined it before to be done and to be done by the specific people who done it..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Thats fine, but the problem you impose is that you take this simple meanng of foreknowing by God to imply that He foreknew because He was enlightened by seeing something would happen before Hand, thats blasphemy, abstractedly speaking, Gods simple foreknowing is because He determined it to happen, so , of course He foreknows duh..

You can lay off the 'blasphemy' crap any time there S...youre not frightening anyone here

Ive presented a VERY scriptural view that takes ALL of the relevant data into account.
Instruction by its very nature PRESUMES choice, friend..that is fact.
Gods word showing that man is instructed to NOT rebel when drawn by God PROVES that there IS choice to be made concerning our salvation...like it or not.

So God foreknew the subjects in vs 27 would do what they did, because His counsel determined it before to be done and to be done by the specific people who done it..

I dont care about your misuse of a couple verses, friend.
What we KNOW is that it is a TWO step process...shall I REpost it again ?

G4267
??????????
progin?sk?
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).


For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

Heres a couple verses where the word is used that SHOW that it DOES have a facet of 'foreknowing'...

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on guard, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being carried away by the error of the wicked;
(2 Peter 3:17 EMTV)

Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
(Acts 26:5 KJV)

So sorry about your luck, S....the word DOES have an understanding of 'foreknowing'....knowing BEFOREHAND>...

And we know that man is given a CHOICE to repent or remain in rebellion.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

.

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[toddm]

Likewise, we cannot choose God because our free will is going to always choose that which it desires - as sinful people w/ a sinful nature the choice is obvious: to sin.

Wrong.
UNtil God draws a man we cannot choose.
After the Father begins to draw a man that part of the mans spirit is awakened and choice is presented that was not available to him prior to that moment.

I think we're saying the same thing here.

When the Father draws WE choose to either remain in rebellion or to cling to our Creator.
THAT is the PURPOSE of ALL of this, friend..

Here, I believe, will be our greatest point of disagreement. Can you provide Scripture that backs up your view of "ineffectual drawing"? I see in John 6:37 that "all that the Father gives me WILL (definitely) come to me" [parenthesis mine].

Until the Father draws a man his ONLY inclination is toward the fallen, sinful nature.

Again, I agree.

Once that drawing has begun a new choice is presented...one of continuing in rebellion or running to the One who draws.

Again, can you show me where this idea comes from in Scripture. John 6:37 seems to contradict the idea that we somehow have a choice in the matter. Is God's grace so ineffective that we would much rather choose to remain unregenerate? Can you show me from Scripture that God does not overcome man's will at precisely His right timing (ie, Jacob's wrestling, Paul's conversion)?

Did you stumble there because it sounds like you agree with me

Without choice there would be NO internal battle at all.

No, I didn't stumble. Paul is not talking about a "pre-conversion battle" though. The inward battle is not one of whether to accept God's grace or not and remain unregenerate. The internal battle is only there because there are now two opposing natures - sinful (our first nature) and regenerate (God's Spirit in us). Romans 7, in no way, allows for the inward struggle to be a case of believing God for salvation or rejecting His salvation. I fully agree that we have a choice each day to follow God's will or follow our sinful nature, but this is after the fact that we are ALREADY Christians.

Again, this is not a 'puppet theory', but a compatibility with God's divine regeneration. God enables us to live (like the lifeguard), but we make the choice to open our eyes and get up off the floor once we've been resuscitated (faith & repentance).

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I think we're saying the same thing here.

Probably agree more than you think, T.
I didnt get directly into all of the details as I was only responding to the hateful OP in the beginning posts here.
Scripture does teach us that it is required that the Father draw before man CAN come to Him.

Here, I believe, will be our greatest point of disagreement. Can you provide Scripture that backs up your view of "ineffectual drawing"? I see in John 6:37 that "all that the Father gives me WILL (definitely) come to me" [parenthesis mine].

Uh...yeah...see my last post, T....its VERY clear.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43471&p=526019#p526011

Again, can you show me where this idea comes from in Scripture. John 6:37 seems to contradict the idea that we somehow have a choice in the matter. Is God's grace so ineffective that we would much rather choose to remain unregenerate? Can you show me from Scripture that God does not overcome man's will at precisely His right timing (ie, Jacob's wrestling, Paul's conversion)?

Again...see my last post.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43471&p=526019#p526011
Man CAN reject God and salvation or those passages are all lies.
I dont like relying on ONE verse or passage, brother....that leads to all sorts of misinformation

 

[toddm]

If someone is automatically rejecting God because of their sinful nature, then is that a choice? It does not seem to be a legitimate choice to reject God if one cannot choose God unless he is first drawn by God (a point we both agree on). So, are we really choosing to reject God when we are innately already doing so by our very nature?

 

[Ret]

Instruction by its very nature PRESUMES choice, friend..that is fact.

FoC...there's other scripture that doesn't exactly say that...

• Psalms 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether...
  
  13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb...
  
  16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them...KJV

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

If someone is automatically rejecting God because of their sinful nature, then is that a choice?

Nope.
They dont even HAVE any choice UNTIL the Father draws.
Once He has and that part of the spirit is awakened in the man, its like an invitation is given and we can either RSVP that we're attending or that we're not.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Revelation 3:20 KJV)

"and open the door"
Not, "I'll knock the door down and force him to eat with me"

It does not seem to be a legitimate choice to reject God if one cannot choose God unless he is first drawn by God (a point we both agree on).

Definitely agree.
When God gives out the 'invitation' a man then has a choice to make.

So, are we really choosing to reject God when we are innately already doing so by our very nature?

When the drawing begins thats when the choice is offered.
Paul shows the internal struggle that exists within us, our flesh fighting against the spirit, and we have to decide to either keep up the good fight and run to the Creator who draws, or give in to the flesh and remain in rebellion.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)


And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Instruction by its very nature PRESUMES choice, friend..that is fact.

FoC...there's other scripture that doesn't exactly say that...

• Psalms 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether...
  
  13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb...
  
  16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them...KJV

Im sorry, but I try not to pit on verse against another but to harmonize them all together into a whole.
Something in Psalms that isnt directly stating that man DOESNT have any choices in salvation doesnt nullify the MANY that show that he does

 

[savedbygrace57]

foc says:

Something in Psalms that isnt directly stating that man DOESNT have any choices in salvation doesnt nullify the MANY that show that he does

So give us a a scripture that says man has a choice in salvation..

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

Something in Psalms that isnt directly stating that man DOESNT have any choices in salvation doesnt nullify the MANY that show that he does

So give us a a scripture that says man has a choice in salvation..

Oh good grief, poster....READ THE THREAD !!!

I have NO interest in REposting everything Ive posted already because you dont want to read it the first time

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

foc says:

Something in Psalms that isnt directly stating that man DOESNT have any choices in salvation doesnt nullify the MANY that show that he does

So give us a a scripture that says man has a choice in salvation..

Then again....sure, Ill flood this thread with what Ive ALREADY posted in the matter....I mean, since you ASKED for me to provide something here

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

So give us a a scripture that says man has a choice in salvation..

Does man have a CHOICE to open the door or not when Jesus knocks?
Apparently since the it shows 'and opens the door'....not forcibly knocked down by Jesus ;)
And understandably the statement is conditional...which flies in the face of hyper predestination fallacy which makes it all into absolutes.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)


And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

===============================================

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

So give us a a scripture that says man has a choice in salvation..

But gee....I guess I misunderstood your demands, s...
It just dawned on me that you requiring a verse that literally says (using the exact wording) 'man has a choice in salvation'

Well, lets see here.
I can play along or I can turn your own illogical demands on the texts back onto your own argument.
Hmmm...which is more in line with my personality

Ok, I got it ...
How about YOU give US a scripture THAT SAYS "man DOESNT have a choice in salvation"
Remember now...Im DEMANDING the EXACT wording now....just as I presented it

.
ugh....
.