THE BLESSED HOPE vs UNIVERSAL MOURNING

[reba]

So what is the "hope" and what is the "glory" in the context of this thread which speaks of a "Blessed Hope"?

Been around forums long enough to know not to jump into the box someone has built ...
I see Christ in you and i as a blessed hope..
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Hope is something one would want to achieve... I hope to become more and more Christlike.. I do not say His return is not a blessed hope sure it is...
He is Glory...
You may think i have not answered but i have...

 

[john darling]

Hope is something one would want to achieve... I hope to become more and more Christlike..

I think this concept of "I want to become more Christlike" is pretty much the essence of Jesus' death on the cross. Perhaps if we had a long enough time span we could eventually learn to become perfect (in submission to Jesus), though dozens of lifetimes would probably still not be enough. Perfection is the standard God set, even though we fall so very short of it.

But grace/forgiveness is there to give us hope that even when we do fall, we can still get back up again and keep trying to be more Christlike.

 

[Sinthesis]

Do you believe that since you have not yet experienced the rapture, at least as you see it, that Christ has not yet redeemed and purified you to himself?

Do you believe that you are sinless, perfect in body, soul and spirit, and glorious in your appearance?

And that's the whole point of this thread. I asked Sinthesis: "Do you believe that you are sinless, perfect in body, soul and spirit, and glorious in your appearance?". He chose not to answer, because the answer is obvious. But he also dodged the obvious question (which you have also dodged). If we are not presently sinless, perfect in body, soul, and spirit, and glorious in appearance, then at what point will we be? That's what "the Blessed Hope" is all about, and that question has to be answered from Scripture. I could provide the answer, but I would like to see how others provide that answer.

The first person to dodge a question in this thread was you. The answer to your question is not obvious because we, as Christians, are already accounted as sinless, perfect in body, soul and spirit, and glorious in appearance. This fact is only reduced to an unseen blessed hope when one can't see spiritual reality with underdeveloped spiritual eyes. Will this all be ratified physically? Yes, but spiritual trumps physical, so the true nature of salvation is fulfilled in our current spiritual relationship with Christ, and not the various physical gifts this relationship promises throughout eternity. And which is why we are 'saved' even now, and don't need to wait until the end for that designation.

As to 'blessed hope' vs 'universal mourning', you're comparing apples to oranges. For us, the Hope of Judaism has been fulfilled in the Joy of Christianity. In a Christian world view it is Joy that stands in contrast to the mourning of the unbeliever. Both exist concurrently even today, so they can't be used as justification for a sequential two phase apocalypse.

 

[Deborah13]

 

[ezrider]

I think this concept of "I want to become more Christlike" is pretty much the essence of Jesus' death on the cross. Perhaps if we had a long enough time span we could eventually learn to become perfect (in submission to Jesus), though dozens of lifetimes would probably still not be enough. Perfection is the standard God set, even though we fall so very short of it.

But grace/forgiveness is there to give us hope that even when we do fall, we can still get back up again and keep trying to be more Christlike.

What is the standard of perfection?
Is it perfect obedience to the law?
Is it perfect obedience to Faith, and what does that mean?
Is it perfect obedience to the Flesh, or obedience to the Spirit?

Or, is our perfection measured by the forgiveness, grace and mercy that we bestow unto others, as the Lord has bestowed unto us, in spite of any of our sins or our sin nature in the flesh?

 

[ezrider]

I have a hypothetical question that I would hope you might consider, as I believe it relates in some fashion to the OP and the blessed hope, especially in light of the scripture that reba has posted in referencing Col 1:27. I would really like to hear some of your thoughts.

What would the kingdom of God have looked like through the kingdom of Israel had the children of Israel accepted the voice of the Lord when he descended upon the mountain in a cloud andburning fire and had done as he had promised and had written His laws into the hearts and minds at that time? You know an Israel from the scriptures that rejected the word of the Lord on the mountain that burned with fire, and they chose to follow Moses instead.

But how would we perceive the kingdom had the children of Israel accepted the voice of the Lord that day? Would they even have a King to rule over them? Even in their rejection of the Lord's voice in the wilderness, He did not appoint a King over them until the children of Israel demanded they have one so they could be like the heathen nations around them. But it was not that way from the start. In the beginning of that kingdom, Judges were appointed over them, not a king.

In our blessed hope, which is Christ in us, the scripture tells us that we will be:

1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This was the word of the Lord to the children of Israel as they were to prepare themselves for the Lord to descend upon the mountain on the third day.

Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

So how would you picture that kingdom had they not feared the all consuming fire that descended upon the mount. Had he written his laws into their hearts and mind in that day, how would you know or perceived God as the head of that kingdom.

 

[john darling]

Wow, such a fantastic question, ezrider! This is an exciting topic! I believe this question is very similar to "what will it be like ruling with Jesus during the 1000 year reign".

If the children of Israel had listened to God? I think they would not have demanded a king and we'd still have tribal judges. In the Revelation God gets back to that concept once more by re-establishing the 12 tribes each of which I believe will have leaders acting as tribal judges.

Then there's the two witnesses who will have a fair bit of power, but even with them there are two counseling together so it's still different from the concept of a single king making all the decisions.

However, we don't really need to wait until the 1000 year reign to act on God's desire for Christians to become that kingdom of holy priests. The teachings and the mandate already exists. It's just that during the 1000 year reign we'll finally have the authority to enforce the values of Heaven in the world, whereas as it is now, we only have the power to enforce those values in our own lives, personally.

But when you get Christians who are willing to judge themselves and apply the values of Heaven in their own lives through deep personal conviction, then you develop genuine Christian community where we CAN get back to a system of judges, at least within that community.

This is part of being born again where we learn a completely new set of day-to-day values. When Jesus said "follow me" people quit their jobs working for the systems of man and started working for the kingdom of Heaven. It's not that they didn't work anymore, but rather that they started working for a new motivation other than money. They forsook materialism and private ownership. They lived communally and the book of Acts says as a result of all this they were described as "those who have turned the world upside down".

They became a priestly nation, at least for a time. I believe this is what God wants for us even now. There are aspects of the revelation which help to make that clear (like the Mark of the Beast where we will be called on to reject buying and selling thus rejecting the systems of Man), but Jesus' teachings stand independent of the Revelation, too. We can apply them now without waiting around for circumstances (like he Mark) to force us to act.

 

[john darling]

What is the standard of perfection?
Is it perfect obedience to the law?
Is it perfect obedience to Faith, and what does that mean?
Is it perfect obedience to the Flesh, or obedience to the Spirit?

Or, is our perfection measured by the forgiveness, grace and mercy that we bestow unto others, as the Lord has bestowed unto us, in spite of any of our sins or our sin nature in the flesh?

I think, even within the Biblical context, there can be various levels or understandings of perfect. I personally believe the concept of "never stop trying to follow God, no matter how much you fail" is a perfect attitude, even though our behavior may still remain sinful.

However, I still think that perfection, in the sense of not sinning anymore, is the standard. God knows how much trouble we have in reaching that standard, but it's in his nature to have high standards for us.

It's not like he's being unreasonable. That's why he gave the Israelites a chance to atone for their sins and why he later sacrificed Jesus and why I believe the perfect attitude is one of never giving up. Jesus' death has made it possible for us to over come the condemnation that comes with failure.