The burden of proof

[r3alink]

(Post deleted, failure to follow moderator's instructions. Obadiah.)

 

[jasonc]

(Post deleted, response to deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Sinthesis]

A friend I must fear and serve, that's not a friendship that's a totalitarian relationship.

Where did I say "must"? Read the post again. God is yielding, so that what you see of Him will often be influenced by what you are looking for. It's interesting that you focused on fear and service, for those were the only widely available options before Christianity.

 

[Edward]

A friend I must fear and serve, that's not a friendship that's a totalitarian relationship.

But it is not a totalitarian relationship. We perhaps could fear this, considering that the only experience that we have is with men. You can't really say that about the new, uh...servitude position that we would fill. Like for instance, the difference between a good employer and a bad employer means everything. If you've ever had a great job with a fantastic boss, then you know what I'm talking about. If the Boss is good enough...(and no one can out give God, lol) then it would be more like a friendship than a crappy job where one dreads going to work because the Boss is a (bleep).

A friend that you have to fear and serve? Not so much. It would be more likened to...your father. You fear and serve your dad, yet He is good to you because he loves you, and sometimes when he's hard on you...he's only trying to teach you something important. Discipline, honor, endurance, patience and so on. There's nothing wrong with that.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. In scripture, most of the time when, even saints would have occasion to be in front of the Lord...they would be very frightened, and the Lord would always tell them to fear not...I think that this is because to stand in the presence of such holiness, brings all of ones iniquities to the surface and we would know of them, and be crapping our pants consequently. So yes, God is to be feared. And rightly so. BUT! He is also to be praised and thanked for His longsuffering and mercy! We would all be dead without that.

 

[r3alink]

But it is not a totalitarian relationship. We perhaps could fear this, considering that the only experience that we have is with men. You can't really say that about the new, uh...servitude position that we would fill. Like for instance, the difference between a good employer and a bad employer means everything. If you've ever had a great job with a fantastic boss, then you know what I'm talking about. If the Boss is good enough...(and no one can out give God, lol) then it would be more like a friendship than a crappy job where one dreads going to work because the Boss is a (bleep).

A friend that you have to fear and serve? Not so much. It would be more likened to...your father. You fear and serve your dad, yet He is good to you because he loves you, and sometimes when he's hard on you...he's only trying to teach you something important. Discipline, honor, endurance, patience and so on. There's nothing wrong with that.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. In scripture, most of the time when, even saints would have occasion to be in front of the Lord...they would be very frightened, and the Lord would always tell them to fear not...I think that this is because to stand in the presence of such holiness, brings all of ones iniquities to the surface and we would know of them, and be crapping our pants consequently. So yes, God is to be feared. And rightly so. BUT! He is also to be praised and thanked for His longsuffering and mercy! We would all be dead without that.

I did fear my father, but that was because he was a bully. If he truly loved me I would have nothing to fear.

 

[r3alink]

(Post deleted, failure to follow moderator's instructions. Obadiah.)

 

[Edward]

I did fear my father, but that was because he was a bully. If he truly loved me I would have nothing to fear.

God's not a bully, but He does chastise those He loves, for being disobedient. But if we seek Him with our whole heart and obey Him, then we can get to a place where we may boldly approach the throne of grace. There's good relationships, and great relationships. It's largely up to us how close of a relationship that we have with our Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ok so you christians say bible god has to be an invisible spirit who lives in the hearts of all his believers, you also say he intercedes on occasions testing mankind to weed out who is the tare's and the wheat.

Your understanding of God is extremely flawed. The first thing to grasp, not to understand, and many claiming the faith do not have a grip on it, is that there is only One God though there are many gods. The One God is one god in three persons. I do not know a single person that can accurately define how that can be but it is, exactly what God teaches of Himself and therefore must be grasped though it cannot be explained by simple men.

The three persons in this One Godhead are from top down, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit, also God. They are not three gods because the Bible, the revelation of God, inspire by the same, teaches they are all One God. The Father is a Spirit Being with no physical extension into the Time/Space Continuum He had His Son create for our benefit.

The Son, on the other hand performed a miracle and was born a baby of a virgin woman to sacrifice His Blood on the cross to pay for the transgressions of any that will seek Him. He resurrected that human body and His Spirit is there now, giving Him the ability to be seen when He returns, seven years after the Pretender, a man, is revealed and rules the world with a one world nation also known as The One World Government.

Bet you thought I forgot about the heart thing... here we go. The Holy Spirit also known as the Holy Ghost is one amazing spirit person. He is able to live in the hearts of every person on the earth at the same time. Now letś discuss that heart for a moment. This term is used for a Hebrew word that is not the heart that pumps your blood but rather is where God, our LORD will find yours and mt eternal spirits. There is much discussion where in oneś body this heart is located but being a spiritual matter none can be certain before Jesus returns to rule the whole world for a thousand years.

You know you have this spirit heart because things that are wrong trouble your spirit even if it is logical that these things should not effect you at all.

So in your mind bible god is careful not to reveal his presence or he would screw up his plain of salvation. But then when you are confronted by the burden of proof you are quick to point out the order and design of the universe as absolute proof of bible god.

But may I ask,

What specifics does the bible actually show and demonstrate, that's evident that it is bible god who designed all we see in our known universe.

This is a difficult first thing to understand or to, at least, grasp for the unbeliever that is seeking the truth. The proofs you seek are there in the prophecies that have been fulfilled that are listed throughout the entire Bible but let's deal with one that is observable now.

Hosea 9:10 & Matthew 24:32-34, these scriptures teach us a great deal about the Jewish people and the Matthew passage is the prophecy about May 14, 1948, the day it was fulfilled by Israel (the fig tree) being reborn on the earth in a single day. You will want to dig into this deeper and if you search 'May 14, 1948+Israel+fig tree+Bible' you can dig much deeper into this matter. There is much more but to much at a time makes for to much to do and there is already too much stress in the world.

May God bless as you seek.

 

[r3alink]

God's not a bully, but He does chastise those He loves, for being disobedient. But if we seek Him with our whole heart and obey Him, then we can get to a place where we may boldly approach the throne of grace. There's good relationships, and great relationships. It's largely up to us how close of a relationship that we have with our Lord.

Lets get back to my OP, what does the bible demonstrate and reveal about this universe that we can confirm now and lead us to be sure bible God did create this universe.
The law of god was one reply, the earth being a circle was another, and also the earth hanging on nothing was one and of course biblical prophecy is yet to be mentioned.

 

[r3alink]

Your understanding of God is extremely flawed. The first thing to grasp, not to understand, and many claiming the faith do not have a grip on it, is that there is only One God though there are many gods. The One God is one god in three persons. I do not know a single person that can accurately define how that can be but it is, exactly what God teaches of Himself and therefore must be grasped though it cannot be explained by simple men.

The three persons in this One Godhead are from top down, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit, also God. They are not three gods because the Bible, the revelation of God, inspire by the same, teaches they are all One God. The Father is a Spirit Being with no physical extension into the Time/Space Continuum He had His Son create for our benefit.

The Son, on the other hand performed a miracle and was born a baby of a virgin woman to sacrifice His Blood on the cross to pay for the transgressions of any that will seek Him. He resurrected that human body and His Spirit is there now, giving Him the ability to be seen when He returns, seven years after the Pretender, a man, is revealed and rules the world with a one world nation also known as The One World Government.

Bet you thought I forgot about the heart thing... here we go. The Holy Spirit also known as the Holy Ghost is one amazing spirit person. He is able to live in the hearts of every person on the earth at the same time. Now letś discuss that heart for a moment. This term is used for a Hebrew word that is not the heart that pumps your blood but rather is where God, our LORD will find yours and mt eternal spirits. There is much discussion where in oneś body this heart is located but being a spiritual matter none can be certain before Jesus returns to rule the whole world for a thousand years.

You know you have this spirit heart because things that are wrong trouble your spirit even if it is logical that these things should not effect you at all.



This is a difficult first thing to understand or to, at least, grasp for the unbeliever that is seeking the truth. The proofs you seek are there in the prophecies that have been fulfilled that are listed throughout the entire Bible but let's deal with one that is observable now.

Hosea 9:10 & Matthew 24:32-34, these scriptures teach us a great deal about the Jewish people and the Matthew passage is the prophecy about May 14, 1948, the day it was fulfilled by Israel (the fig tree) being reborn on the earth in a single day. You will want to dig into this deeper and if you search 'May 14, 1948+Israel+fig tree+Bible' you can dig much deeper into this matter. There is much more but to much at a time makes for to much to do and there is already too much stress in the world.

May God bless as you seek.

I knew that bible prophesy would be mentioned, it is the christians ace in the hole.

 

[Gary]

Lets get back to my OP, what does the bible demonstrate and reveal about this universe that we can confirm now and lead us to be sure bible God did create this universe.

That information has been provided. Follow the link.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...the-burden-of-proof.57186/page-2#post-1029063

.

 

[chessman]

Lets get back to my OP, what does the bible demonstrate and reveal about this universe that we can confirm now and lead us to be sure bible God did create this universe.
The law of god was one reply, the earth being a circle was another, and also the earth hanging on nothing was one and of course biblical prophecy is yet to be mentioned.

That's at least 5 'demonstrations' that lead us to believe that God (as God is revealed in the Bible) created the universe. However, did you have a # in mind that would clinch it for you, make it as you say "sure" for you? I'll give a couple evidences I've always personnally found persuasive (just so I contributed to answering your specific question). But I did wonder myself if you had a # in mind that would make it "sure" for you and actually persuasive?

Evidence(s) is not persussaion. If they were the same then looking around at all the things plainly made in the universe would persuade everyone. But it doesn't. Some people just don't like God. I don't know why that is. If it is true (and I'm persuaded it is true) the Bible God created the universe with His plan for it's purpose, we'd better get on board with His plan or go find our own universe. Friendly God or Bully God, He's the only God with a functional plan for the future. Everything else, becomes extinct. Just look around the universe. It's all coming to an end relatively soon (without Bible God's plan, that is):

Your and my life, human species extinction, the planet Earth's life friendly environment, the Sun's fuel, the Milky Way's collision and finally the entire universe. All die! Which, BTW, the Bible prophecies. (Eccl 3:1)

Oh, just a point of observation also, if there were 1,000s of these types of 'demonstrations' in the Bible, they wouldn't change Bible God into another god such as Casper the Friendly God or something. What possible difference does it make how friendly God is? Bible God either truly is Creator God of the Bible or He's not. I've always found it extremly odd that some people claim not to trust in God because He's too mean for their taste.

But as you say, back to the OP topic:

1. We use time within universal Law equations (F=M•A) for example being one of the simplist, as if time is as physical as mass or force. Seems odd for time to be a created part of the created universe doesn't it? Surly time was around forever, right? Wrong.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor me his prisoner, but suffer along with me for the gospel, according to the power of God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace that was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.​

Also, you might consider how this relates to my observation above. I'm not ashamed of the testimony of the Lord (including His justice and Wrath testimonies).

2.

Job 9:9 He is the one who made the Bear and Orion,the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
​

A claim you either think is false or don't care that it's true because God's to much of a bully.

Job 38:31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,or can you loosen the cords of Orion?
​

It's only very recently that astronomers have measured the relative motions of the stars that form Pleiades and Orion. Guess what? Pleiades' stars evidently formed together from the same gas cluster and thus move together such that they have and will always continue to appear as they do now from Earth (binding them together). Orion's stars, on the other hand, are not physically anywhere close to one another and dis-associated (they only appear to be close from Earth) and are moving in different directions from each other, "loosing" them in appearance from Earth. Lucky guess, 1,000s of years prior to the invention of red-shift measurements? I'm persuded not. But some people just don't care.

Oh, the rest of Job 9 is not a bad read either. Or The rest of Job. Or the rest of Bible God's book. It will not persuade you, though. Only provide evidences. 1,000s of them.

 

[r3alink]

That's at least 5 'demonstrations' that lead us to believe that God (as God is revealed in the Bible) created the universe. However, did you have a # in mind that would clinch it for you, make it as you say "sure" for you? I'll give a couple evidences I've always personnally found persuasive (just so I contributed to answering your specific question). But I did wonder myself if you had a # in mind that would make it "sure" for you and actually persuasive?

Evidence(s) is not persussaion. If they were the same then looking around at all the things plainly made in the universe would persuade everyone. But it doesn't. Some people just don't like God. I don't know why that is. If it is true (and I'm persuaded it is true) the Bible God created the universe with His plan for it's purpose, we'd better get on board with His plan or go find our own universe. Friendly God or Bully God, He's the only God with a functional plan for the future. Everything else, becomes extinct. Just look around the universe. It's all coming to an end relatively soon (without Bible God's plan, that is):

Your and my life, human species extinction, the planet Earth's life friendly environment, the Sun's fuel, the Milky Way's collision and finally the entire universe. All die! Which, BTW, the Bible prophecies. (Eccl 3:1)

Oh, just a point of observation also, if there were 1,000s of these types of 'demonstrations' in the Bible, they wouldn't change Bible God into another god such as Casper the Friendly God or something. What possible difference does it make how friendly God is? Bible God either truly is Creator God of the Bible or He's not. I've always found it extremly odd that some people claim not to trust in God because He's too mean for their taste.

But as you say, back to the OP topic:

1. We use time within universal Law equations (F=M•A) for example being one of the simplist, as if time is as physical as mass or force. Seems odd for time to be a created part of the created universe doesn't it? Surly time was around forever, right? Wrong.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor me his prisoner, but suffer along with me for the gospel, according to the power of God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace that was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.​

Also, you might consider how this relates to my observation above. I'm not ashamed of the testimony of the Lord (including His justice and Wrath testimonies).

2.

Job 9:9 He is the one who made the Bear and Orion,the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
​

A claim you either think is false or don't care that it's true because God's to much of a bully.

Job 38:31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,or can you loosen the cords of Orion?
​

It's only very recently that astronomers have measured the relative motions of the stars that form Pleiades and Orion. Guess what? Pleiades' stars evidently formed together from the same gas cluster and thus move together such that they have and will always continue to appear as they do now from Earth (binding them together). Orion's stars, on the other hand, are not physically anywhere close to one another and dis-associated (they only appear to be close from Earth) and are moving in different directions from each other, "loosing" them in appearance from Earth. Lucky guess, 1,000s of years prior to the invention of red-shift measurements? I'm persuded not. But some people just don't care.

Oh, the rest of Job 9 is not a bad read either. Or The rest of Job. Or the rest of Bible God's book. It will not persuade you, though. Only provide evidences. 1,000s of them.

A place before time is not just a biblical concept, I believe the aboriginals have a place before time called "dream time" as for pleiades and orion and it's biblical connection, I concede I know nothing about it and will first have to study what your claiming carefully before I accept a connection.

 

[chessman]

But I did wonder myself if you had a # in mind that would make it "sure" for you and actually persuasive?

Do you have a # of evidences in mind that would persuade you?

A place before time is not just a biblical concept, I believe the aboriginals have a place before time called "dream time"

How do you know that they didn't get the idea handed down to them from their ancestors? Are you aware of several of the most ancient written Chinese language symbols that seem to have Biblical account origins? Also, that's not really my original point about time, nor the Bible's point. My point was that what the Bible God's Word says about time matches up to the truth of time within the universe (no matter what aboriginals or Chinese say about it). The truth is, time isn't a "concept" according to the Bible. It's real and was really created. that's the point, time is NOT a "concept'? Concepts don't solve equations of motion, gravity or light travel. However, time is a component within these equations, just like gravity, mass and forces are. Rather amazing, really. If you spend to time to think about it

I concede I know nothing about it and will first have to study what your claiming carefully before I accept a connection.

It's always a good idea to check sources and study what other's say carefully. Many people say things that are wrong (Christians and non-Christians). It's my claim that the Bible God hasn't said anything that's wrong within His Word, however. About time, the Earth, the Stars or the afterlife. Some people agree, some don't.

 

[smaller]

Ok lets say I'm evil. Is friendship with god now to be feared any less or now to be served any less than I pointed out.

We all have an evil conscience, as prior noted. None of us are exempt.

On that basis we fear God. We all can be over run or given over to that working in us no matter what we believe as viewed from the outside. In the realm of theology such external matters are far down on the list of priorities. We are engaged primarily with internal matters of our hearts and minds. Internally is the origination of all thought and it is thought that runs our respective machines.

It is a good thought that God is and remains against evil. And on that basis, the fact of an evil conscience yes, God is against everyone to some degree. I'm against evil as well, particularly my own thoughts in that direction.

Understanding God or creation from the external prospects really wouldn't make any difference to the internal problems we all bear. I'm sure you've heard this mantra in a lot of churches:

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

If you believed or didn't based on external proofs the fact of having an evil conscience won't change internally. Many ways the wicked heart of man proof is set before all of our eyes, externally, daily. Even our own.

It is from that working we seek separation by our faith.

Faith is always an internal matter. The answers from faith arrive internally. It is by faith, we engage the matters of God.

No man can give faith to anyone.

Faith, Grace, Love, Mercy. All intangibles. All meaningless and worthless to the carnal mind.

 

[By Grace]

Do I dare say I was a christian for many years or does my lack of faith now disqualify me from understanding your faith now.

OF COURSE NOT!

All you need to do is to simply ask Jesus to forgive you for your foolishness, which is sinful rebellion, and then simply ask Jesus to save you from the penalty of sin.

Going to a good church will also help you grow in faith. The way to find one is call the pastor of the church, and simply ask him this question, "Do you believe that the original documents of the Bible are without error, and are the only rules for both our faith and our way of life?"

Then go to the ones that ask "Yes" . Keep in mind that finding a good church is a process, and every church has a different personality.

 

[r3alink]

(Post removed. Repeated refusal to comply with moderators simple requests. Obadiah.)

 

[smaller]

(Post removed. Response to removed post. Obadiah)

 

[By Grace]

What are you saying, that gods law is mans conscience. But not the whole law right?

Not really. Your sentence seems to make them equal, and they are not. Nevertheless, ALL humanity, no matter what they create as their own law, they violate that law of their own.

Romans 2

ESV | ‎Ro 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
‎2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. ‎
3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? ‎
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? ‎
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
​

.
That is why the Bible says in Romans 3:23 that there is no exception to the fact that we have broken the law of God.

ESV | ‎Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
​

As a result of our sinning, there is a penalty we all have to pay, and that is our death, and eternal separation from God:

ESV | ‎Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

You should notice that the conjunction I highlighted is extremely important, and that what comes afterward is the difference between life and death. It means that despite our having to peay the death penalty for our sins, those who have Jesus Christ as their Savior will not live in pain and torment as punishment for our sins. Instead, they alone will have eternal life.

Is that something that you want to have, eternal life, and not eternal punishment for your sins?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I knew that bible prophesy would be mentioned, it is the christians ace in the hole.

If you wish to discuss, that's cool. For intentional ignorance, accented with a smirk will get you nothing but eternity in Hell, your choice, not mine. I offered more if you did a little personal digging and you did not even pretend. I was on your side many more years than I have served God.