The burden of proof

[Obadiah]

The question asked in the OP of this thread was: What specifics does the bible actually show and demonstrate that are evidence that it is God who designed all we see in our known universe.

So back to the topic. Off topic posts, especially those designed as personal attacks will be deleted.

Obadiah.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This burden of proof thing is a dumb item period. I mean, we belief and it is called Faith and the unbeliever, we like to call them, have placed their God given faith elsewhere. They cannot begin to prove their faith because it is a lie and without their turning to try God on the terms He has dictated we have no chance of turning them without the intercession of God,

Words! Those go straight to God, no matter where else they end up. I am sometimes guilty of speaking when I shouldn't and must repent and ask for forgiveness but the attitude, growing, in God's Church, today, is I'll, just, ask for forgiveness later, is dangerous. We are pushing aside the truth that God knows our hearts and the heart must be changed.

 

[smaller]

I might observe what basis of proof believers seek to establish in their witnesses of proof, supposedly to unbelievers, first and foremost. I hesitate to term these techniques. Sharing or witnessing proofs is a more elegant term. We are called to be witnesses. So the question is still, to what?

Some simple thoughts and measures that I have engaged in over decades.

What basis is used?:

If we follow the example of God in Christ, there are many things we could observe about His methods. His axiom was that apart from God, He could do nothing. So a credible witness should understand that we're in the same shoes. Secondly, He related to the ills and captivity of the people. He related to people and was made a human being Himself specifically to RELATE to us individually as humanity, Himself being such a MAN. Personal relativity is an important thing for any witness. Jesus loved the people. If a witness to Jesus can't love the people they witness to, that witness will more than likely be quite ineffective. It was one thing for God to thunder from on High at the top of Mount Horeb and scare the dickens out of everyone in the process. But if we observe the effectiveness of that speaking, all over the age of 20 save for 2 wound up suffering the fate of unbelief anyway, and God destroyed them all in the desert. They did not enter the promised land because of UNbelief. So even with such an incredible string of miraculous external physical proofs it availed the HEARERS nothing other than to scare them into submission to a far more powerful entity. (this is good topic matter in itself, God's manifestations to Israel and the administration of the Law by Divine Interventions.) And in that fear, the fear of a greater Being, the fear of being KILLED by that entity, was the establishment of an entire people called Israelites. But we can observe such a basis really didn't do them any good in the end as to their physical life. External tangible proof has it's limitations. Fear as a basis of establishment also has it's limits.

Maybe the most important for a witness for themselves is seeing how God 'related' to us in the form of a MAN, being made a Man Himself. It's not that any unsaved person has to try, in their mind, to establish the empirical side of Jesus having lived as a real person, though later that part will be examined by any believer. The chain of relativity hooks from us to the unbeliever, and from us to our relativity to Christ to introduce the evidence of our witness. Relativity to those being witnessed to is of the utmost importance. Paul used this methodology continually. This was probably the underlying basis of Paul's entirety of witness:

1 Cor. 9:
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

The witness of Christ is made in RELATIVITY to the ills and internal captivity of the people and IN LOVE with them. In the end Paul didn't really care how Jesus Christ was preached or presented. So in Paul's sight, no matter how Jesus was preached, it was not a BAD thing. People who believe eventually find out that they themselves have to sort things out for themselves, as it usually goes. Some are more personally intense about it. Probably many more aren't.

What proofs can actually be established?:

Again, the ways and means here can vary greatly. A lot, I might even say the majority of camps of Christianity are formed on the basis of FEAR. Not saying that's a bad thing, but also a lot of witnesses get caught up with this as their basis of proof. They try to scare people into belief. Under that methodology there is a lot of manipulations of people. The majority of believers are held in their respective denominations by FEAR. That is the theological string that holds the majority of denominations together and this basis as to how that fear is established also divides them. Such camps spread the Gospel on the basis of fear, in order to take people captive and camp them into denominations by FEAR. I consider such camps to be 'emotionally' based, and that emotion trigger is FEAR and the witnesses witness in, by and through FEAR. They fear that they must witness in order to please God. They fear that someone will be lost. They fear the inadequacies of their efforts. Fear also demands threat to impose it. The various threats may be overtly or covertly delivered by the 'witnesses' to the people being witnessed to. Again, not saying fear doesn't have it's place. But it's also an area that is sorely abused, and often amounts to brainwashing manipulations and abuses of people by reason of threat, force, intimidation, and manipulations to induce FEAR. This was the ground where most of the early churches divided and became their eventual denominations. But it, to me is a very worldly approach. Those are the same methods that the world of the wicked deploys to us daily. Threats, force, intimidation and manipulations to induce fear, leading to captivity and subjugation. It's also very infectious. The 'run for your lives' mentality appeals to the fight or flight systems that we have pre-built into our psyches. Such appeals may have their effects, but they don't necessarily make good long term disciples. The methods induce beaten captive fearful flocks of pew sitters sitting and established under fear based systems. I'd speculate and suggest that the majority of christianity sits in these types of religious systems today. And that the result of this methodology is endlessly splitting denominations and equally endless proselytizing to steal each others sheep. Such systems are very worldly in their methods and natures.

There are other ways to relate to people. We can point to the internal reality proofs that they themselves have. They are quite simple. We appeal to their inner man. That is the heart of witnessing and 'who' it is we are seeking to relate to. In every person they have a conscience. That conscience they themselves will witness to thoughts of both good and evil. They themselves will relate to conscience internal conviction when they violate their conscience. They themselves will relate to the joy of feeling good in their inner man, in their heart when they do good and when they love and when they do right there is internal JOY. These are the proofs that God Himself has set into every person. Their conscience. Their inner self. Their own convictions. Their own joy of doing good. These are the things of God and the groundwork already laid within all.

It really is the inner man we are seeking in our witness. It is 'that man' we seek to 'lay hands on.' To introduce the Love of God in Christ to them as part of their inner equation. Part of the proof already resides within them. On that ground we can relate and convey spiritual matters as conveyed by Jesus Christ in order to establish AN INTERNAL RELATIONSHIP with God in Christ. We know that relationship to be a REALITY. WE then are part of the PROOF.

In the end, it is The Spirit Christ who has to enter them. We make the introduction through our witnessing. They already have the proving grounds built into them all. We plant the seed, His Word, however we are led to see relativity to them, applied and planted. It is God who gives the increase.

God in the end decides who He Will lift up and who will be locked against Him or blinded to Him. It is only Christ who must set the captive free. And free from what should be part of the witnessing. We really are seeking to convey the inner freedom in Christ of being divided from captivity to their own INTERNAL EVIL conscience. It is that internal EVIL conscience that presently rules the utterly wicked world of the spiritually blinded.

And that EXTERNAL PROOF is available to point to in such an overwhelming fashion I couldn't begin to even show how much proof is on the outside, in the external senses, to show the working of evil internal wickedness in man.

Jesus came to free us and divide us from such evil wickedness. The evil wickedness that MAN has built into ourselves. It is between these workings of good and evil in the conscience, that He Stands in our respective temples as our Internal Ally. We present an invitation in our witness for Him to enter into their own temple.

Ask, Seek, Knock. It is the door of the inner man that only He can open. Laying stumbling blocks will not help the process. If your own temple has been over run in faith by His Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness and His Real Love, you will ooze it from the pores of your own life and into the world of those around you, whom God brings to you. Those are the implements whereby God Will Destroy the world of the wicked.

 

[childeye]

The problem with the op in this thread, is it is framed in a false dichotomy from the get go. The term "God" is an axiom, as in the beginning of a sound reasoning, or in other words, a constant which points to those things pertaining to "The Eternal". To ask the question how the bible proves that God created all things is therefore a question formed in ignorance of this fact. For since the term "God" is the term referring to that source of energy that created all things, it's no different than asking the question of how does a math book prove that the number one is not the number two.

 

[Edward]

This burden of proof thing is a dumb item period. I mean, we belief and it is called Faith and the unbeliever, we like to call them, have placed their God given faith elsewhere. They cannot begin to prove their faith because it is a lie and without their turning to try God on the terms He has dictated we have no chance of turning them without the intercession of God,

Words! Those go straight to God, no matter where else they end up. I am sometimes guilty of speaking when I shouldn't and must repent and ask for forgiveness but the attitude, growing, in God's Church, today, is I'll, just, ask for forgiveness later, is dangerous. We are pushing aside the truth that God knows our hearts and the heart must be changed.

It is dumb because it is in there, but not a single verse or two, it's the entire bible. I guess the big thing of proof that it demonstrates is that it wrote history before it came to pass.
Even some believers have their faith elsewhere than God. They read a little in the bible and form a picture of God and then perhaps remember good ol' Uncle Earls testimony when God helped them that one time and how He did it. So that adds to the picture and then what happens is that God will do something for them, but in a different way than He did for Uncle Earl, so it doesn't compute for them and they reject it, or rather, are distracted by their own thoughts on what should be happening, and it didn't happen like that for Earl so God don't work like that...and miss it.
God does want to reveal who He is, not just confirm who we think He is. He said something about no mind can even comprehend Him...so it's kind of dumb to think that we can question Him or ask for proofs. He already gave it to us. If we can't get it, then we're either not reading His word enough, or praying enough, or walking in faith enough...or something, because He also said that, Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the Lord of hosts./ so live for the Spirit.

I thought the same thing about words. They are power and belong to God. They are a gift that He has given us. ow what are we going to do with it?

Oh great! Born into a war behind enemy lines, and have been surrounded by liars my entire life. Geez it takes 50 years just to figger out what going on here. I am not from here or of this world and realm, but the spiritual realm...which is a mystery, is how I am supposed to live. Yep. No doubt about it. I do need my Bible.

Proof is a given, it's all around us and in a book. All we have to do is apply faith.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is dumb because it is in there, but not a single verse or two, it's the entire bible. I guess the big thing of proof that it demonstrates is that it wrote history before it came to pass.
Even some believers have their faith elsewhere than God. They read a little in the bible and form a picture of God and then perhaps remember good ol' Uncle Earls testimony when God helped them that one time and how He did it. So that adds to the picture and then what happens is that God will do something for them, but in a different way than He did for Uncle Earl, so it doesn't compute for them and they reject it, or rather, are distracted by their own thoughts on what should be happening, and it didn't happen like that for Earl so God don't work like that...and miss it.
God does want to reveal who He is, not just confirm who we think He is. He said something about no mind can even comprehend Him...so it's kind of dumb to think that we can question Him or ask for proofs. He already gave it to us. If we can't get it, then we're either not reading His word enough, or praying enough, or walking in faith enough...or something, because He also said that, Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the Lord of hosts./ so live for the Spirit.

I thought the same thing about words. They are power and belong to God. They are a gift that He has given us. ow what are we going to do with it?

Oh great! Born into a war behind enemy lines, and have been surrounded by liars my entire life. Geez it takes 50 years just to figger out what going on here. I am not from here or of this world and realm, but the spiritual realm...which is a mystery, is how I am supposed to live. Yep. No doubt about it. I do need my Bible.

Proof is a given, it's all around us and in a book. All we have to do is apply faith.

AMEN! We to stop trying to figure and believe.