The call of the Father.

[Watchman 2]

Unbelief and disobedience are the same word.



JLB

No there not!

If you want to reverse the action of pisteuo, you put an A in front of it, "Apisteuo."

Disobedience, is a different Greek word," Apeitheo." 545 in the Strong's.

Unbelief is even another word, " Apistia" 570 in the Strong's.

 

[Watchman 2]

I'm really trying to understand you, so I really hope you can help me. You wrote the following:

Your premise in this statement is "The truth that you're convinced of Comes from God's word." From this premise you conclude "[therefore] God's word [is] your "object of Faith." So I ask you again to help me understand your reasoning that takes you from your premise to your conclusion. Why does the premise of believing a truth from God's word necessarily means the object of my faith is the word itself and not the thing the word is conveying. For example, if God's word says that Jesus is God and I then believe that Jesus is God and proceed to worship, fear, and value Him supremely, how is He not the object of my faith?

I highlighted "your" premise, I simply wrote what was in your reply # 231. I then have a detailed reason as to why it can't be NT saving Faith. Maybe just reread #237?

 

[OzSpen]

My premise is the correct understanding of pisteuo, the Greek word used 248 times in the NT, that was mistranslated with the words believe, believer, and believing.

The definition of pisteuo from the Vines Greek dictionary is " a personal surrender to Him !!!!! Not to what He s,aid, not to what He claims to be, not what He did on Calvary!

Watchman 2,

Don't you understand that 'believe' is a verb, 'believer' is a noun, and 'believing' is a participle?

Pisteuw could never be translated as 'believer' or 'personal surrenderer' or the one surrendering BECAUSE pisteuw is not a noun or a participle.

Do you read and know the grammar and syntax of NT Greek?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No there not!

Watchman 2,

Sadly, you are having problems with English grammar when you stated, 'No there not!'. You meant 'No they're not' = no they are not.

Do you want 'there' to function as an adverb, a pronoun, a noun, an interjection, or an adjective?

Or, do you mean 'they are', which is abbreviated to 'they're'?

Ox

 

[OzSpen]

My premise is the correct understanding of pisteuo, the Greek word used 248 times in the NT, that was mistranslated with the words believe, believer, and believing.

The definition of pisteuo from the Vines Greek dictionary is " a personal surrender to Him !!!!! Not to what He s,aid, not to what He claims to be, not what He did on Calvary!

Pisteuo is a verb, an action word. Specifically, an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence.

1) the act, a personal surrender to"' Him ."""

2) based upon the belief, that He will accept the surrendered life.

3) sustained by confidence, in the many daily decisions we make that prove to God we really have surrendered our life to Him and that it's not ours anymore but His now.

Without the Continually surrendered life aspect of pisteuo, its not NT saving Faith that can result in recieving the Spirit of Christ. It can't be replaced with just belief in what God's word says. We can't skirt the altar, and go right to worship, fear and value.

Your kind of building on another false premise in that we accept Christ, when He accepts us, " our surrendered life! "

Watchman,

Pisteuw, according to Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Lexicon means, 'believe something ... be convinced of something' (1 Cor 13:7; 1 John 4:16), 'testimony was believed' (2 Thess 1:10) [1957:666].

There are many other examples of the use of the verb pisteuw in BAG. None of them indicate what you want pisteuw to mean.

You are relying too heavily on Vine's Dictionary when there is more extensive scholarship available.

Thayer gives some meanings of pisteuw as:

1. 'The thing believed being evident from the preceding context' (Matt 24:23 [26]; Mk 13:21; 1 Cor 9:18).
2. Especially 'in a moral and religious reference, pisteuein [the infinitive] is used in the N. T. of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of the soul ... absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something' (Matt 8:1321:22; Mk 5:36; 9:23....) [1887/1962:511].

To want to exclude the meaning of 'I believe' for pisteuw goes beyond the information supported by the 2 major lexicons.

Do you want me to check out the meaning of pisteuw in Kittel & Friedrich (eds) and Colin Brown (ed)? These are the 2 major word studies for students of the NT.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Watchman 2,

Sadly, you are having problems with English grammar when you stated, 'No there not!'. You meant 'No they're not' = no they are not.

Do you want 'there' to function as an adverb, a pronoun, a noun, an interjection, or an adjective?

Or, do you mean 'they are', which is abbreviated to 'they're'?

Ox

I'm reading along Oz....
but will no longer engage in this conversation...
We're up to post no. 245 and are still discussing a word.
I find this incredible.....

 

[Watchman 2]

Watchman,

Pisteuw, according to Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Lexicon means, 'believe something ... be convinced of something' (1 Cor 13:7; 1 John 4:16), 'testimony was believed' (2 Thess 1:10) [1957:666].

There are many other examples of the use of the verb pisteuw in BAG. None of them indicate what you want pisteuw to mean.

You are relying too heavily on Vine's Dictionary when there is more extensive scholarship available.

Thayer gives some meanings of pisteuw as:

1. 'The thing believed being evident from the preceding context' (Matt 24:23 [26]; Mk 13:21; 1 Cor 9:18).
2. Especially 'in a moral and religious reference, pisteuein [the infinitive] is used in the N. T. of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of the soul ... absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something' (Matt 8:1321:22; Mk 5:36; 9:23....) [1887/1962:511].

To want to exclude the meaning of 'I believe' for pisteuw goes beyond the information supported by the 2 major lexicons.

Do you want me to check out the meaning of pisteuw in Kittel & Friedrich (eds) and Colin Brown (ed)? These are the 2 major word studies for students of the NT.

Oz

Strong's: "pisteuo means NOT just to believe."

 

[Watchman 2]

Watchman 2,

Sadly, you are having problems with English grammar when you stated, 'No there not!'. You meant 'No they're not' = no they are not.

Do you want 'there' to function as an adverb, a pronoun, a noun, an interjection, or an adjective?

Or, do you mean 'they are', which is abbreviated to 'they're'?

Ox

This is the only correct post that you've presented!

 

[Watchman 2]

Watchman 2,

Don't you understand that 'believe' is a verb, 'believer' is a noun, and 'believing' is a participle?

Pisteuw could never be translated as 'believer' or 'personal surrenderer' or the one surrendering BECAUSE pisteuw is not a noun or a participle.

Do you read and know the grammar and syntax of NT Greek?

Oz

You still haven't given me a strongs number for " pisteuw" proving it's a Greek word.

But ya, go with that! The definition of saving Faith is " I believe".

Out of the 248 times pisteuo is used in the NT, "believer"is used as a verb one time.

And I focus on the Vines because I know from my " experience" of having done that it's absolutely correct.

 

[OzSpen]

Strong's: "pisteuo means NOT just to believe."

So are you saying these lexicographers don't know what they are talking about and all their research is wasted on you and your fixation on Mr Vine's dictionary?

 

[OzSpen]

You still haven't given me a strongs number for " pisteuw" proving it's a Greek word.

But ya, go with that! The definition of saving Faith is " I believe".

Out of the 248 times pisteuo is used in the NT, "believer"is used as a verb one time.

And I focus on the Vines because I know from my " experience" of having done that it's absolutely correct.

I have no need to do that. I quoted from 2 of the 'bibles' of Greek lexicons that define pisteuw.

You haven't answered my question: Do you read Greek and understand Greek grammar and syntax?

I will not continue this pedantic interchange with you.

 

[Watchman 2]

I have no need to do that. I quoted from 2 of the 'bibles' of Greek lexicons that define pisteuw.

You haven't answered my question: Do you read Greek and understand Greek grammar and syntax?

I will not continue this pedantic interchange with you.

No reason to, pisteuw is not a Greek word!

 

[JLB]

No there not!

If you want to reverse the action of pisteuo, you put an A in front of it, "Apisteuo."

Disobedience, is a different Greek word," Apeitheo." 545 in the Strong's.

Unbelief is even another word, " Apistia" 570 in the Strong's.

At some point you are going to have to allow the scriptures and context to define your understanding of biblical words.


EXAMPLE:


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV



For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
Romans 11:30 NKJV


For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Romans 11:30 KJV



Strongs G543 — apeitheia


Strongs G544 — apeitheō



Both of these words carry the meanings of unbelief and disobedience.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

No reason to, pisteuw is not a Greek word!

(source: Romanization of Greek)

Greek	Classical[citation needed]	ALA-LC [3] (2010)	Beta Code [12]
α	a	a	A
αι	ae	ai	AI
β	b	b	B
γ	g	g	G
n [n. 1]	n [n. 1]
δ	d	d	D
ε	e	e	E
ει	e or i	ei	EI
ζ	z	z	Z
η	e	ē	H
θ	th	th	Q
ι	i	i	I
κ	c	k	K
λ	l	l	L
μ	m	m	M
ν	n	n	N
ξ	x	x	C
ο	o	o	O
οι	oe	oi	OI
ου	u	ou	OU
o
π	p	p	P
ρ	rh [n. 2]	rh [n. 2]	R
r	r
σ	s	s	S / S1
ς	S / S2 / J
τ	t	t	T
υ	y	y	U
u [n. 3]	u [n. 3]
υι	ui or yi	ui	UI
φ	ph	ph	F
χ	ch	ch	X
ψ	ps	ps	Y
ω	o	ō	W

 

[for_his_glory]

Let's look at your definition of "believe", " convinced of a truth."

The truth that your convinced of Comes from God's word, which makes Gods word your "object of Faith."

God's word can't be the object of Faith, the object of Faith has to be God Himself, a real living person. The covenant has to be with Christ, not His word! That's the first point!

The second point!
When we begin the salvation journey, none of us begins with the Spirit of Christ ( aka Holy Spirit.)

So at the beginning of the salvation journey, because we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours!!! So how can we claim anything in God's word ( believing in God's word ) as ours when it's not ours yet? Rom.8:9

You may have not seen the post where I said the biggest problem with the mistranslated words believe, believe, and believing, is that it changes the object of Faith from God Himself, a real living person, to God's word and His promises.

God's word becomes part of our surrendered life later in the salvation process, after we've received His Spirit.

In Greek, the root word from which we get faith, the noun is "pistis" and believe, the verb is "PISTUEO". Faith means belief, firm persuasion, assurance, firm conviction, faithfulness. Faith is confidence in what we hope for and the assurance that the Lord is working, even though we cannot see it.

The Christian faith professes an unreserved belief in the Bible being God's word for mankind. God's word is true, tested and unchanging. Saving faith is also full and reserved confidence in God, in His love for us, and in His power to help us whatever comes our way. God's word is the scriptures from the beginning before the foundation of the world without end. Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is our guide through the Holy Spirit that leads us into God's righteousness and to know the mind of Christ.

We begin our salvation journey by first hearing the word of God preached to us as faith comes by hearing the word of God. Then the five requirements to salvation are: confession, repentance, faith regeneration and the Holy Spirit. These five requirements all happen at the same time through the Spiritual rebirth.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Out of the 248 times pisteuo is used in the NT, "believer"is used as a verb one time.

Can you share these scriptures with us?

There are 59 variants to the word pisteuw/pisteuo in the Greek as all mean a different form of believe. To lengthy, but can be found here.

classic.netbible.org - NETBIBLE: Strong4100

 

[XRose]

Back to the question.

Can a person called by the Father, that has never heard of Christ or His Gospel, respond in saving Faith that if continued will result in recieving the Spirit of Christ?

how can they as they lack the map -Bible- that points to Jesus.

 

[OzSpen]

You still haven't given me a strongs number for " pisteuw" proving it's a Greek word.

But ya, go with that! The definition of saving Faith is " I believe".

Out of the 248 times pisteuo is used in the NT, "believer"is used as a verb one time.

And I focus on the Vines because I know from my " experience" of having done that it's absolutely correct.

Watchman 2,

Pisteuw cannot be used in the NT as a noun, believer, because pisteuw is a verb.

When will you get it that a verb is not a noun?

2 Cor 6:15 uses the noun 'believer': τίς δὲ συμφώνησις χριστοῦ πρὸς βελιάρ; ἢ τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου.

Pistw (with iota subscript) is the masculine, singular, dative of pistos. The same verse uses the word for unbeliever, apistou, which is masculine, singular, genitive of apistos.

Oz

 

[Watchman 2]

Watchman 2,

Pisteuw cannot be used in the NT as a noun, believer, because pisteuw is a verb.

When will you get it that a verb is not a noun?

2 Cor 6:15 uses the noun 'believer': τίς δὲ συμφώνησις χριστοῦ πρὸς βελιάρ; ἢ τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου.

Pistw (with iota subscript) is the masculine, singular, dative of pistos. The same verse uses the word for unbeliever, apistou, which is masculine, singular, genitive of apistos.

Oz

You must show the word your presenting is in the Greek dictionary and it's reference number before a discussion concerning it.

 

[Watchman 2]

Watchman 2,

Pisteuw cannot be used in the NT as a noun, believer, because pisteuw is a verb.

When will you get it that a verb is not a noun?

2 Cor 6:15 uses the noun 'believer': τίς δὲ συμφώνησις χριστοῦ πρὸς βελιάρ; ἢ τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου.

Pistw (with iota subscript) is the masculine, singular, dative of pistos. The same verse uses the word for unbeliever, apistou, which is masculine, singular, genitive of apistos.

Oz

In regards to a real Greek word pisteuo used 248 times in the NT, 4100 in the Strong's.

In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated " believers".