Bible Study The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture

[Judy]

Judy.
Nobody that I can see is being critical.

I didn't think they were.

 

[jgredline]

I didn't think they were.

: sorry Judy, I was thincking of a differant thread at the time..

 

[JM]

: sorry Judy, I was thincking of a differant thread at the time..

jg, you might want to have a look at this blog, it has some interesting posts.

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/

 

[jgredline]

jg, you might want to have a look at this blog, it has some interesting posts.

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/

Thanks JM
I will check it when I get home...Right now I feel the the red headed step child in this thread :-D but hey, its all good. :wink:

 

[JM]

One of my main concerns in the PreWrath doctrine was the shortening of the Great Tribulation a period of anywhere from 5 months to 1-1/2 years. In his book, "The Sign," Robert Van Kampen stated,

". . . The only specified time span of the six previous trumpets, which therefore must be between the Rapture and the end of the seventieth week, is that of the fifth trumpet, which will last five months (Rev. 9:5). The maximum length of the great tribulation by Antichrist therefore cannot exceed thirty-seven months (forty-two months less five months)" (p. 494).

In other words, the longest the Great Tribulation can last is no more than three years and one month because of Revelation 9:5:

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Van Kampen then goes on to say,

"In addition, if the sixth trumpet judgment is thirteen months long (Rev. 9:15) - which seems possible, but not probable - then the great tribulation will be shortened by that amount. How much shorter will be determined by the length of the first four and the sixth trumpet judgments" (Ibid).

Revelation 9:15 is this:

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I don't believe it is feasible to figure this in the time frame the PreWrath uses, but if it were to be used, then the great tribulation would be shortened by 18 months or 1-1/2 years, making it only 2 years long. Personally, I don't believe this whole scenario that it's shortened but lasts 3-1/2 years as has always been taught.

 

[Alan K]

“I will keep you from the hour of testing†(teœreœsoœ ek teœs hoœras tou peirasmou)


1) There are two main Greek prepositions that mean “from.â€Â

A) “ek†means “from out of†That is, the point of origin starts within the midst of what it is coming from.

Revelation 3:10 uses “ek†which would undermine the pretrib understanding of being protected from something that was never in the midst of it origin in the first place.

B) The second Greek preposition is “apo†which means ‘from†with the idea of the motion never starting within something.

For the pretrib view to work in this Revelation 3:10 the word “apo†would have been used, but it was not.

If it helps to see it visually, look at how “ek†and “apo†function in this chart on prepositions:

http://www.preceptaustin.org/fig2.jpg

2) What I have just given you is the classical Greek understanding of these two terms. However, in Hellenistic Greek, the Greek of the New Testament, these two meanings lost some of its clear cut meanings and thus became a little blurred and so overlapped with each other. Therefore, context is even more important for this verse.

3) The important question is not so much what the word “ek†means, but what is the “hour of testing†(hoœras tou peirasmou)?

Most would agree that this is referring to that period called the Day of the Lord’s Wrath. (There is an interesting case that can be made that the test of worshiping the “image of the Beast†may be the hour of testing, but that is another day).

And here is where prewrathers and Petribers would agree if in fact the “hour of testing†is the Day of the Lord’s wrath: We are raptured just before the commencing of God’s wrath.

But this brings us to the watershed question of the rapture debate: When does the Day of the Lord’s wrath begin?

The Pretrib view believes that the entire 70th week of Daniel is God’s wrath.

But it has been argued cogently by Prewrathers like myself that the Day of the Lord’s wrath begins when the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation is cut short.

See my article which argues that God’s wrath does not begin until the 7th Seal:

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/09/ ... e_cosm.php



Thanks for your time,
Alan Kurschner
http://www.prewrathrapture.com

 

[JM]

Welcome Alan. Come visit the End Times forum where we have a few threads you might be interested in.

Peace,

j

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Alan, welcome to the club. :

I have a decent knowledge of the PreWrath position and it seems to be the the most Scriptual position concering the timing of the harpazo within a future 70th. week. I also did a little studying on the probability of a historical 70th. week, with a future Tribulation, Wrath and Second Coming. I am nowhere near a place where I could expound, so I keep that under my hat. ;-)

... 3) The important question is not so much what the word “ek†means, but what is the “hour of testing†(hoœras tou peirasmou)?

Most would agree that this is referring to that period called the Day of the Lord’s Wrath. (There is an interesting case that can be made that the test of worshiping the “image of the Beast†may be the hour of testing, but that is another day).

And here is where prewrathers and Petribers would agree if in fact the “hour of testing†is the Day of the Lord’s wrath: We are raptured just before the commencing of God’s wrath.

Interesting, I have taken a different approach in my understanding of "the hour of testing". I believe the hour is the Tribulation and God is giving them the grace needed to avoid any sort of apostasy and to help them endure trial and tribulation; maybe even by means of Divine protection. It could and probably has something to do with refusing the Mark and death for doing so. I view this whole verse as a promise of protection throughout the Tribulation.

Because I am basically PreWrath, for this to mean the Day of the Lord doesn't work for me. By then the harpazo would have already taken place; no need for protection then.

But this brings us to the watershed question of the rapture debate: When does the Day of the Lord’s wrath begin?

The Pretrib view believes that the entire 70th week of Daniel is God’s wrath.

But it has been argued cogently by Prewrathers like myself that the Day of the Lord’s wrath begins when the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation is cut short.

See my article which argues that God’s wrath does not begin until the 7th Seal:

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/09/ ... e_cosm.php



Thanks for your time,
Alan Kurschner
http://www.prewrathrapture.com

You will get no argument form on that. ;-)


JG and myself were bouncing some ideas around on the meaning of tereo (keep). Many people of the PreTrib position want this to mean removal, when all instances of this word in the NT don't use this meaning. There is a Greek word for removal (kineo) that would work here, but that word is not used in Revelation 3:10. If the writer was trying to convey a meaning of removal and not protection, wouldn't the writer use kineo instead?

 

[Vic C.]

Jason,

On the previous page, you posted a quote... where is it from? Also;

I don't believe it is feasible to figure this in the time frame the PreWrath uses, but if it were to be used, then the great tribulation would be shortened by 18 months or 1-1/2 years, making it only 2 years long. Personally, I don't believe this whole scenario that it's shortened but lasts 3-1/2 years as has always been taught.

I personally don't have a problem with the timing. It's feasable, considering there is no definitive time period laid out for us in Scripture. We have to do some calculating to determine the possible duration of the GT. Besides, because something has always been taught, doesn't make it correct. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

Vic or anyone really..
Do you believe that the book of revelation is put together in chronological order? or do the various judgements seals, trumpets, bvowls inter twine and are unsequential?

Do you believe that the OT is a picture of the NT?

 

[Vic C.]

Vic or anyone really..
Do you believe that the book of revelation is put together in chronological order? or do the various judgements seals, trumpets, bvowls inter twine and are unsequential?

No. I believe some of chapter 11 and all of chapters 12-14 and most of 15 'rewind' back to the fifth seal and bring us up to the beginning of the vials (bolws) found at ch. 16.

Also, it is possible that ch. 20 and 21 are reversed. This I am unsure about. I'll have to go back to the book The Sign and find the chapter where Van Kampen writes about this.

Do you believe that the OT is a picture of the NT?

I believe much of the OT is a foreshadow of things to come. Some prophrcy is for us; some are not. Some Laws are for us; most are not. I believe we are not bound to the Feast; though I do believe they paly a part in the timeing of End Time events.

 

[Solo]

Vic or anyone really..
Do you believe that the book of revelation is put together in chronological order? or do the various judgements seals, trumpets, bvowls inter twine and are unsequential?

Do you believe that the OT is a picture of the NT?

I believe that the seven seals are a sequential chronilogical overview of what occurs after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that the seven trumpets are then more detailed within the seven seal time period, after which the bowl judgments are the wrath of God poured out on the entire unbelieving. As Revelation continues, I believe that it describes in greater detail yet what occurs to the believers during the time of the Great Tribulation, what occurs to the Jews during the time of the Tribulation, and what occurs to the unbelieving during the time of the tribulation and during the pouring out of the wrath of God.

Jesus paints a pretty good outline of Revelation in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

 

[Alan K]

Greetings,

Interesting, I have taken a different approach in my understanding of "the hour of testing". I believe the hour is the Tribulation and God is giving them the grace needed to avoid any sort of apostasy and to help them endure trial and tribulation; maybe even by means of Divine protection. It could and probably has something to do with refusing the Mark and death for doing so. I view this whole verse as a promise of protection throughout the Tribulation.

Exactly. This is basically what I believe. Let me explain. (First, I assume by "Tribulation" you mean the "Great Tribulation.")

Recently, I have written an exegetical paper arguing that the "hour of testing" is in fact, not the Day of the Lord's wrath, but the test of whether saints will worship the image of the beast" or refuse and stay faithful.

I have not posted it on the blog because there are more exegetical points that will take some time to really work through.

This is not to say that the "hour of testing" is rather the Day of the Lord's wrath. (And, actually, either position is congruent with the Prewrath position.)

As noted in my first post, I mentioned that most pretribers, prewrathers, and even postribers believe that the "hour of testing" is God's wrath during the Day of the Lord. Pretribers and Prewrathers believe we are raptured before the Day of the Lord; Postribers believe they are protected within the Day of the Lord and raptured afterwards.

Because I am basically PreWrath, for this to mean the Day of the Lord doesn't work for me. By then the harpazo would have already taken place; no need for protection then.

JG and myself were bouncing some ideas around on the meaning of tereo (keep). Many people of the PreTrib position want this to mean removal, when all instances of this word in the NT don't use this meaning. There is a Greek word for removal (kineo) that would work here, but that word is not used in Revelation 3:10. If the writer was trying to convey a meaning of removal and not protection, wouldn't the writer use kineo instead?

1) The term tereo means "keep, guard, protect." The mode of these meanings though must be determined by the context. To give one example, in John 17:15, Jesus prays for protection for his disciples. The term "tereo" does not carry the mode of protection, only the general concept of it. Yet, it is the context that provides us with the mode: Jesus prays for spiritual protection, not physical removal.

So the burden of proof is on pretribs (or any of us) to show the mode of protection, be it "removal" or spiritual or physical protection from within.

2) Yes, the writer could have used kineo, but tereo could be used to mean removal, but, again, only context can give it that meaning. Even though removal could have been in the mind of the writer, he may just wanted to communicate the fact of "protection" and not the mode (or means) of it.

3) Often Revelation 3:10 is considered the most debated verse in Revelation. It should not be. Because we should place our weight on explicit texts, and examine when the Day of the Lord begins.

4) There are a couple of strong arguments though that the "hour of testing" is the Day of the Lord. One in particular is that in Revelation 3:10, the test is given to the "earth dwellers." This phrase always refers to the ungodly.

In Conclusion

i. The mode of tereo (protection) must be determined by its context (as any word should be). And if the context does not indicate the nuance, then we should not let it say more than the general meaning.

ii. I lean to the idea that the "hour of testing" is not the Day of the Lord's wrath, but it is the test of worshiping the image of the Beast. The promise is that God will protect faithful believers with special grace to endure the intense temptation to give in to the image of the beast and his mark. It is a test during the Great tribulation, and not physical protection from God's wrath (Though, we will be raptured before the Day of the Lord's wrath.)

Most prewrathers believe that the hour of testing is the Day of the Lord's wrath, there are a couple of good arguments for that, which I will not deny.

iii. Any of the two positions are congruent with the Prewrath position. That is, both support it; and neither of them deny it.

iv. We need to be careful of reading too much into Revelation 3:10. I prefer to focus on explicit Biblical texts that teach that the Cosmic Disturbances occur sometime during the second half of the 70th week, which will announce the Day of the Lord's wrath.

Blessings,
Alan Kurschner
http://www.prewrathrapture.com

 

[JM]

Jason,

On the previous page, you posted a quote... where is it from? Also;


I personally don't have a problem with the timing. It's feasable, considering there is no definitive time period laid out for us in Scripture. We have to do some calculating to determine the possible duration of the GT. Besides, because something has always been taught, doesn't make it correct. ;-)

I think it was from this site:

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Prewrath1.htm

In Search Of The Origins Of The PreWrath Doctrine
Part 1: Lovett, Armstrong: Early Similarities To PreWrath?
By Ed Tarkowski

 

[Alan K]

In Search Of The Origins Of The PreWrath Doctrine
Part 1: Lovett, Armstrong: Early Similarities To PreWrath?
By Ed Tarkowski

Oh yes, Ed Tarkowski's search for the origins of the prewrath doctrine. Reminds me of the search for the Loch Ness monster 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

Jason, thanks.

Alan,

i. I lean to the idea that the "hour of testing" is not the Day of the Lord's wrath, but it is the test of worshiping the image of the Beast.

So do I, as I alluded to above. I'm thinking that as the intensity of Tribulation (GT from hereon in) increases, some may come to put their Faith in Jesus as opposed to worshipping the Beast. So, maybe it's not just for those who might be deceived into worshipping the Beast; it could be a means of bringing some into a saving knowledge of Jesus. During this time, I believe that the Gospel will be preached like never before.

Does that make sense?

2) Yes, the writer could have used kineo, but tereo could be used to mean removal, but, again, only context can give it that meaning. Even though removal could have been in the mind of the writer, he may just wanted to communicate the fact of "protection" and not the mode (or means) of it.

Got it. There is no method suggested on how they will be protected, so I am hesitant to think it is anything more than the Lord's protective Hand on them.

OK, we guess we can lay this to rest and concentrate on the duration of the GT and when the Day of the Lord begins. Maybe you can explain to [us] why you believe the GT is not the whole seven period and why the GT and DOTL are two different events and

Thanks in advance.

 

[Alan K]

Maybe you can explain to [us] why you believe the GT is not the whole seven period and why the GT and DOTL are two different events

1) The Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus cites Daniel 9:27 which says,

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.’â€Â

This "abomination of desolation" Jesus speaks of in Mt 24:15 begins what Jesus calls in verse 21, "great tribulation."

In other words, Jesus views the "abomination of desolation" as the cause that will begin the great tribulation. It does not happen before the "abomination of desolation."

And we know that this event occurs at the midpoint because Daniel specifically says so, "...In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.’[/i]â€Â

Incidentally, I realize that is is a popular and entrenched term, but I think that it is misleading to use the term "tribulation" to refer to the 70th week of Daniel. The Bible never calls the entire 70th week of Daniel this. Further, it blurs the nature of the distinctive periods of the Great Trib and the Day of the Lord's wrath.

2) To your second question, "and why the GT and DOTL are two different events ."

I believe that the Coming of Christ cuts short the Great Tribulation as Jesus teaches in Matthew 24. And this Coming will involve the rapturing the saints, and the subsequent Day of the Lord's wrath upon the ungodly.

I would refer you to two of my articles that explain this in a clear fuller fashion:

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/09/ ... d_paul.php

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/09/ ... e_cosm.php

If you have any questions on any points in them, feel free to ask.

I will be away from my computer most of the weekend though. But, I will try to check back soon.

Blessings,
Alan Kurschner