Bible Study The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture

[JM]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=26907

The rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation as coop admits. Don't get me wrong, I believe the prewrath rapture view makes the most sense, but I say that with some doubt due to the reasons stated in the quotations.

~JM~

I believe it's possible the great multitude was raptured, but it could also be those mentioned in Rev. 6:9, the text doesn't say how they got there.

~JM~

I do consider myself post trib/pre wrath but the whole thing is confusing. VanKampen does a wonderful job of showing the errors of pretrib-ism but I've yet to see a critic from the prewrath camp on any other view.

~JM~

 

[JM]

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudie ... ewrath.htm

An Evaluation of the New "Pre-Wrath" Rapture Theory

Areas of Agreement · Major Areas of Problem

The new "Pre-Wrath" rapture theory was devised by Robert Van Kampen and has been popularized largely by Marvin Rosenthal. The major work on this subject has been Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" (1990). However, Van Kampen has now published two of his own works, "The Sign" (1992) and "The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple" (1997). The subtitle of Rosenthal's book reads: "A new understanding of the Rapture, the Tribulation, and the Second Coming." The word "new" is both in italics and in a different color than the rest of the type. This own self-acknowledgment of their view places them under the same condemnation as that of Pre-Tribulationism as not being part of the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), but instead being a new innovation. According to Rosenthal's own assessment of himself, he is "in the technical sense . . . not a scholar," and he refers to Van Kampen simply as a "Christian businessman." This lack of scholarship is reflected in his book, which demonstrates a definite unfamiliarity with Biblical Greek.

Areas of Agreement

1. The wrath of God occurs only after the rapture (p. 61).

2. The Day of the Lord is a time of God's wrath (p. 35).

3. "The Rapture occurs on the very day the Day of the Lord begins" (p. 117).

4. On page 189 he states, "Those four words, 'at the last trump,' reveal in the clearest possible way the precise occasion when the Rapture of the church will occur."

5. According to his chart on page 61, the rapture occurs after the Great Tribulation. This is by definition the Post-Trib position.

6. He also argues very vigorously that there is only one coming (pp. 129, 222-224).

Major Areas of Problem

1. He proposes a strict sequential interpretation of the book of Revelation (p. 35, 112), which is crucial to his position. This has already been discussed in chapter 3.

2. He divides the 70th week into three parts (p. 61), whereas the Bible routinely divides it only into two. He places the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord somewhere in the middle of the second half (p. 61). He also states that the starting point of the Day of the Lord is crucial to his position (p. 117, 126), yet there is no biblical justification to place this starting point where he does.

3. In order to distinguish the rapture from what he calls the "return in glory," he has a rapture where Christ is not bodily present (p. 217-218). Compare this to the only rapture passage in the Bible which states that "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven" (1 Thess. 4:16).

4. If he can maintain a gap of up to several years between the rapture and the "return in glory" yet still claim that this is one event, then the only difference between his position and that of pre-tribulationism (seven years) is the duration of this gap.

______________________________

Any thoughts Judy? How about this one:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6476/prewrath.html

 

[jgredline]

Major Areas of Problem

1. He proposes a strict sequential interpretation of the book of Revelation (p. 35, 112), which is crucial to his position. This has already been discussed in chapter 3.

2. He divides the 70th week into three parts (p. 61), whereas the Bible routinely divides it only into two. He places the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord somewhere in the middle of the second half (p. 61). He also states that the starting point of the Day of the Lord is crucial to his position (p. 117, 126), yet there is no biblical justification to place this starting point where he does.



4. If he can maintain a gap of up to several years between the rapture and the "return in glory" yet still claim that this is one event, then the only difference between his position and that of pre-tribulationism (seven years) is the duration of this gap.

Actually JM
You have a point here. My biggest problem is the ''TIME LINE'' of all this...
I have found twice as many problems with this view and will post them up shortly. I am crossing my T's and dotting my I's before I get lynched....I will say this and may change my mind. But according to the Pre Wrath position The church is basically going to go through the tribulation...Nearly all if not all 7 years...when the bible clearly says that the church age is over at the start of chapter 4....

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.â€Â


Here is a commentary I scanned into my computer from Jon Coursen....
This really does make the most sense to me...

In chapter 4, we begin the third and final section of the Book of Revelation, as John writes of “the things which shall be hereafter†(see Revelation 1:19).
Revelation 4:1 (a)
After this…
The Greek words here are meta tauta. It’s the same phrase used in the divine outline, where John was instructed to write of the things which he had seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (1:19). After what? After chapters 2 and 3â€â€after church history. I find it interesting that in the first three chapters of the Book of Revelation, the word “church†appears nineteen times. From chapter 4 on, however, it never appears. Why? Because in chapter 4, the church is taken off the scene and into heaven.

Revelation 4:1 (b)
…I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven…
I like this! In verse 20 of chapter 3, we saw Jesus knocking at the door. Anyone who opens the door of his heart to the Lord will have the door of heaven opened to him.

Revelation 4:1 (c)
…and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet…
This trumpet sound draws my mind back to 1 Thessalonians.…
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–18
Obviously this is speaking of the Raptureâ€â€when the Lord appears in the clouds to take us, His bride, to heaven.

Revelation 4:1 (d)
Come up hither…
When I hear the Lord saying, “Come up hereâ€Ââ€â€I’m goingâ€â€and so are you! This is a phrase I can’t wait to hear!

Revelation 4:1 (e)
…and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Meta tautaâ€â€hereafter. Why do you suppose this phrase is used twice in this verse? I suggest it is because the Lord doesn’t want us to miss it. After these things, after church historyâ€â€when the last person gets saved; when the last one is added to the kingdom; when the bride of Christ is completeâ€â€we’re going up!

Revelation 4:2 (a)
And immediately I was in the spirit…
I’m really looking forward to being in the spirit, to being immediately changed. How many of you today found yourself thinking a fleshly thought, reacting in a fleshly way, or doing something in the flesh? We all struggle with this constantly. We all fail continually. But there’s coming a day when we will no longer struggle with the flesh because when we see Him, we shall be like Him (1 John 3:2). I’m really looking forward to that.

Revelation 4:2 (b)
…and, behold, a throne was set in heaven…
The first thing that captures John’s eye is a throne set, or literally “planted†in heaven. I suggest this was a vital concept for Pastor John to pass on to his flock in the midst of terrible persecution. “I saw a throne set,†said John.
Just as the altars whereupon the children of Israel worshiped Baal or Ashtaroth in Old Testament times were portableâ€â€able to be moved from one “high place†or grove to anotherâ€â€the high places and altars of today’s pagan deities are constantly in flux. If you’re worshiping at the altar of materialism, you get the house or buy the car and worship there for a week or two, a year or tenâ€â€but then it doesn’t work anymore. You have to have a newer house or better car. So you move.
Or, if you’re worshiping at the altar of sensuality, you worship there for a whileâ€â€until that altar doesn’t work anymore and you have to find someone else. If you worship at the altar of intellectualism and immerse yourself in the study of this philosophy or that concept, a month or a year later, you’re bored with it.
That’s why we live in a culure that says, “Been there, done that, now what?†Not so with the Lord. I’ve been walking with Him for forty years, and I’m not at all bored. My relationship with Him just gets better and more interesting, more challenging and more intriguing because His throne is set.

Revelation 4:2 (c)
…and one sat on the throne.
John likens the One on the throne to precious stones.…

 

[jgredline]

OK
Another verse that would seem to support the pre trib view is found here....
As I was reading my bible this verse jumped out at me...

The Faithful Church

Revelation 3:7-13
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opensâ€Â: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lieâ€â€indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.†’


When Jesus is saying ''I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.''

So the way I read and see this goes like this; Jesus is speaking of a future event....What future event ? Jesus must be refering to the Tribulation...
So what is he telling his Church? He says that ''I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world''

To look at it even closer The Greek verb τηρέω (tereo)“to keep†is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from†or “out ofâ€Â...to take care of, to guard......this phrase, “keep … from†supports the pretribulational rapture of the church....

This view does not pose any problems with the time lines....

 

[jgredline]

OK
I just scanned this commenatry again from Jon Coursen...It is a little differant than my view on this verse, but does not contradict..



Rev 3;10

Revelation 3:10 (a)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience…

What is the word of His patience? In 2 Thessalonians 3:5, we are told that God is establishing us in the patience of waiting for Jesus Christ. I point this out because the church at Philadelphia is the church interested in Bible prophecy. Although in the first two centuries, the topics of Jesus’ Second Coming and the Rapture of the church were central themes of preaching and writing, Bible prophecy was lost as an interest in the church until the 1800s because people said, “It’s impossible for a nation to come back from the dead. “It’s unthinkable that the Jewish people could have a national identity again. It’s gotta be an allegory. Why would the Middle East be the focal point of a battle? Who cares about the Middle East?†We now understand why that region of the world is so strategic: oil. Economically, militarily, politically, the attention of the whole world is constantly focused on the Middle East.

Revelation 3:10 (b)
…I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation…
The Greek word translated “from†is ek, which means “out of.†In other words, Jesus says, “You at Philadelphia, you of little strength, you’ve kept My Word and you haven’t denied My Name. You’ve gone through the open door, and you’ve been patiently awaiting My coming. Because of this, I will take you out of the time period of temptation yet to come.â€Â

Revelation 3:10 (c)
…which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I believe the church is the group of people who will be taken out of the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world. This is not simply local persecution in Philadelphia, but a time of difficulty that encompasses the entire globe. And there’s only one event that fits this description: the Tribulation.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. Your points are well thought out. I believe that the Church of Philedelphia are born again Christians and I believe that is for todays church. The Laodicea church I believe are all those churches that are liberal and the Catholic Church and other churches. This is forming up right now, but there is still time to repent. And to be born again, wee must repent. I know you like McArthur, and I believe he has teaching on this. Also Chuck Smith does.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

OK
Another verse that would seem to support the pre trib view is found here....
As I was reading my bible this verse jumped out at me...

The Faithful Church

Revelation 3:7-13
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opensâ€Â: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lieâ€â€indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.†’


When Jesus is saying ''I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.''

So the way I read and see this goes like this; Jesus is speaking of a future event....What future event ? Jesus must be refering to the Tribulation...
So what is he telling his Church? He says that ''I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world''

To look at it even closer The Greek verb τηρέω (tereo)“to keep†is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from†or “out ofâ€Â...to take care of, to guard......this phrase, “keep … from†supports the pretribulational rapture of the church....

This view does not pose any problems with the time lines....

jg,

The verse of Scripture that you point out as allowing one of the seven churches to rapture out of this world prior to the tribulation is not declaring that the church of Philidelphia will be raptured out of the world prior to the rapture. But instead it is declaring that Jesus Christ will "keep" them during this terrible time.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:10

The Greek word τηρησης is translated in the KJV as "keep". The definition of τηρησης (keep) is hold fast, keep, reserve, preserve, and watch.

This word is used in Revelation 3:10 and is the same word that Jesus used in His prayer to the Father in John 17:15.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

It is quite a stretch to determine that this verse guarantees that the Church will be raptured out of the world prior to the tribulation in light of all of the verses that point to the Church going through the tribulation. No where is the word tribulation used in the New Testament apart from the Church.

Michael

 

[jgredline]

jg,

The verse of Scripture that you point out as allowing one of the seven churches to rapture out of this world prior to the tribulation is not declaring that the church of Philidelphia will be raptured out of the world prior to the rapture. But instead it is declaring that Jesus Christ will "keep" them during this terrible time.

First the church of phily is really the elect....

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:10

The Greek word τηρησης is translated in the KJV as "keep". The definition of τηρησης (keep) is hold fast, keep, reserve, preserve, and watch.

This word is used in Revelation 3:10 and is the same word that Jesus used in His prayer to the Father in John 17:15.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

Michael
I humbly disagree with you here...First my 1550 TR new testiment uses the word τηρησω (tereo)...

10 Οτι ετηρησας τον λογον της υπομονης μου καγω σε τηρησω εκ της ωρας του πειρασμου της μελλουσης ερχεσθαι επι της οικουμενης ολης πειρασαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης
1550 Textus Recepts.....The way the Greek is laid out it in this verse it is crucial to unerstand that the two words ''will keep'' equal one Greek word τηρησω (tereo) This is also laid out in the ''future tense'' which affirms what I said...“to keep†is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from†or “out ofâ€Â...to take care of, to guard......this phrase, “keep … from†supports the pretribulational rapture of the church....

If I were to use ''only'' the word ''keep'', then you would be correct, but the Greek grammer does not allow it in this instance....

The KJV reads Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The NKJV reads 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

It is quite a stretch to determine that this verse guarantees that the Church will be raptured out of the world prior to the tribulation in light of all of the verses that point to the Church going through the tribulation. No where is the word tribulation used in the New Testament apart from the Church.

Michel

I am not saying this is written in stone or I am guaranteeing this view....What I am trying to do is look at what the scriptures are saying and I don't see where the Church is going to go through the tribulation....

 

[JM]

A quote on Revelation 4:1
1. After these things I looked = introduces a new unit in John’s vision sequence. After these things is clearly a textual marker. However, care should be exercised when stating what is actually indicated by this marker. The exact same phrase is used in Revelation 7:9; 15:5 and 18:1. Whatever else the marker indicates, it does not indicate a temporal shift. This does not mean that a significant amount of time has transpired between the units of material. Rather, the marker indicates that John received the vision in units of material. Revelation 1:1-3:22 is the first unit. Revelation 4:1-7:8 is the second unit. Revelation 7:9-15:4 is the third unit. Revelation 15:5-17:18 is the fourth unit. The last unit of material John saw is contained in Revelation 18:1-22.

2. The first voice which I had heard = connects us back to chapter one. The first voice John heard was that of "one like a son of man." This is none other than the Lord Jesus, Himself. As He has detailed His role as Judge of the church, He indicates to John the next sequence of events to follow. He is judge of the world.

3. Come up here = indicates that John must leave earth and enter heaven. On three separate occasions, John will be invited to a place to see a revelatory vision (4:1; 17:1; 21:9). The fact that John is called up into the heaven should not be pressed at this point. While this unit begins in heaven, it ends on earth.

Unfortunately, some pretribulationists have tortured this verse to support their notion of the timing of the Lord’s removal of the elect from earth to heaven. However, this view is usually argued by laymen who merely repeat what they have heard others say. There is no exegetical or scriptural basis for this claim.

4. Show you = this particular verb is used eight times in the book of Revelation (1:1; 4:1; 17:1; 21:9, 10; 22:1, 6, 8). In six of the eight cases, an angel interprets the events seen by John (17:1; 21:9, 10; 22:1, 6, 8). In this particular vision, however no interpretation is necessary. John clearly sees the events and understands their significance (5:1, 2, 6, 11; 6:1, 12; 7:1).

5. After these things = "after what things?" is an important question. Pretribulationists like Robert L. Thomas attempt a divorcement between the "church age" and the events that constitute Revelation 4-19. Thomas states, "The prophecies [of Revelation 4-19] will describe what will happen after the period of the church has run its course (Thomas, Revelation 1-7, 337)." Thomas’ exegesis is clearly biased.

There is no textual basis to claim that the "church age" has ended at Revelation 3:22. The are no explicit passages of Scripture that make such a claim. The argument that Revelation 4-19 does not involve the church is one of silence. It goes like this: the absence of any reference to the church between Revelation 4:1 and 18:24 means it is not involved in the events that constitute this section. Therefore, the church must be raptured to heaven.

This is called an argument from silence. It is not an argument at all. This type of logic can cut both ways. The term church is also absent from Revelation 20-21, which deals with the millennium and eternity future. The term church is never used to designate an entity in heaven. It is as if the church disappears from history after Revelation 3. However, this is clearly not the case.

For the record, I'm Prewrath and still studying this massive topic.

~JM~

 

[JM]

OK
I just scanned this commenatry again from Jon Coursen...It is a little differant than my view on this verse, but does not contradict..



Rev 3;10

Revelation 3:10 (a)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience…

What is the word of His patience? In 2 Thessalonians 3:5, we are told that God is establishing us in the patience of waiting for Jesus Christ. I point this out because the church at Philadelphia is the church interested in Bible prophecy. Although in the first two centuries, the topics of Jesus’ Second Coming and the Rapture of the church were central themes of preaching and writing, Bible prophecy was lost as an interest in the church until the 1800s because people said, “It’s impossible for a nation to come back from the dead. “It’s unthinkable that the Jewish people could have a national identity again. It’s gotta be an allegory. Why would the Middle East be the focal point of a battle? Who cares about the Middle East?†We now understand why that region of the world is so strategic: oil. Economically, militarily, politically, the attention of the whole world is constantly focused on the Middle East.

Revelation 3:10 (b)
…I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation…
The Greek word translated “from†is ek, which means “out of.†In other words, Jesus says, “You at Philadelphia, you of little strength, you’ve kept My Word and you haven’t denied My Name. You’ve gone through the open door, and you’ve been patiently awaiting My coming. Because of this, I will take you out of the time period of temptation yet to come.â€Â

Revelation 3:10 (c)
…which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I believe the church is the group of people who will be taken out of the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world. This is not simply local persecution in Philadelphia, but a time of difficulty that encompasses the entire globe. And there’s only one event that fits this description: the Tribulation.

Quote on Rev. 3:10


1. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance = in verse 8 above, John states the fact first and gives the supporting reasons afterwards. But in this verse the opposite is true--the reason is given first. It is important to understand that whatever the Philadelphians had to do to receive this promise is done before the promise is made. "You have kept" does not mean "you will keep." The Philadelphians obeyed the Lord’s command to abide even in the face of persecution.

2. Will keep you from = this phrase has been tortured by scholars. It simply means, "to keep out." While driving along a country road recently, I noticed a sign on a gate that said, "keep out, no trespassing allowed." This is the idea here.

3. The hour of testing = is defined as (1) a future event; (2) a worldwide event; (3) an event of testing; (4) an event focused on the earth-dwellers.

There are two future worldwide tests: (1) a great tribulation (Dan 12:1; Matt 24:15-21; Rev 13:7-8); and (2) the Day of the Lord (Jer 30:7; Luke 21:35; Rev 6:17). Scripture explicitly promises that faithful followers of Jesus Christ will be delivered from the Day of the Lord (I Thess 5:1-11; Luke 21:34-36). There is no explicit promise that the elect will not face the persecution of Satan/Antichrist, in fact many will die as martyrs.

4. Test = peirasmos = has two primary meanings: (a) to test in the sense of trying to learn the nature or character of someone or something by subjecting them or it to extensive examination (Louw-Nida, § 27.46) or (b) to tempt in the sense of attempting to cause someone to sin (Louw-Nida, § 88.308).

5. Those who dwell upon the earth = this phrase occurs nine times in the Revelation. It always refers to unbelievers who are hostile to God and his people.

This verse has been fought over by both pretribulationists and posttribulationists alike. Both believe that the correct interpretation of this verse will settle the issue concerning the timing of the Lord’s return to rapture his church into the heavens. Sadly, theology has gotten in the way of sound exegesis. With regards to the great persecution of God’s elect at the hands of Satan/Antichrist, this verse offers no hope.

 

[jgredline]

For the record, I'm Prewrath and still studying this massive topic.

~JM~

For the record, I'm Pre trib and still studying this massive topic.

As I have stated before. This area of scripture is not my strong point. At best I am pretty average on end times....and compared to you folks below ave.I will say that the Pre Wrath theory makes sense to me, but the time lines don't line up for me....I am almost done with Judys paper and I have a ton of questions, but for now I am still a pre tribber.

 

[Solo]

Michael
I humbly disagree with you here...First my 1550 TR new testiment uses the word τηρησω (tereo)...

10 Οτι ετηρησας τον λογον της υπομονης μου καγω σε τηρησω εκ της ωρας του πειρασμου της μελλουσης ερχεσθαι επι της οικουμενης ολης πειρασαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης
1550 Textus Recepts.....The way the Greek is laid out it in this verse it is crucial to unerstand that the two words ''will keep'' equal one Greek word τηρησω (tereo) This is also laid out in the ''future tense'' which affirms what I said...“to keep†is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from†or “out ofâ€Â...to take care of, to guard......this phrase, “keep … from†supports the pretribulational rapture of the church....

If I were to use ''only'' the word ''keep'', then you would be correct, but the Greek grammer does not allow it in this instance....

The KJV reads Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The NKJV reads 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The word Keep is the same word that you describe with a different subjugational ending. This same word is used identically the same in Revelation 3:10 as it is in John 17:15 .

You will come to an understanding in this area as well, as soon as we flush all of that preconceived teaching out of your skull!!!! :D :D :D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Forgive me for going off topic here.

Why is it that this thread, and a few others, are not fitting properly in my screen?

 

[jgredline]

The word Keep is the same word that you describe with a different subjugational ending. This same word is used identically the same in Revelation 3:10 as it is in John 17:15 .

You will come to an understanding in this area as well, as soon as we flush all of that preconceived teaching out of your skull!!!! :D :D :D

I agree that the word you are using is the same as in John 17:15...but it is not used in the same tense in the Rev 3:10.....

 

[Solo]

I agree that the word you are using is the same as in John 17:15...but it is not used in the same tense in the Rev 3:10.....

: : : : :

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:1-8

 

[Vic C.]

Major Areas of Problem

1. He proposes a strict sequential interpretation of the book of Revelation (p. 35, 112), which is crucial to his position. This has already been discussed in chapter 3.

I don't see this as a problem; it's simply a method of interpretation.

2. He divides the 70th week into three parts (p. 61), whereas the Bible routinely divides it only into two. He places the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord somewhere in the middle of the second half (p. 61). He also states that the starting point of the Day of the Lord is crucial to his position (p. 117, 126), yet there is no biblical justification to place this starting point where he does.

He did this by calculation the duration of the trumpet judgements and determined where he thought DOTL should start.

3. In order to distinguish the rapture from what he calls the "return in glory," he has a rapture where Christ is not bodily present (p. 217-218). Compare this to the only rapture passage in the Bible which states that "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven" (1 Thess. 4:16).

I think the point here is that Jesus doesn't physically return to Earth, which I believe is correct. Plus, I don't find this on the pages in question, 217-18. These pages are "antiChrist" pages.

4. If he can maintain a gap of up to several years between the rapture and the "return in glory" yet still claim that this is one event, then the only difference between his position and that of pre-tribulationism (seven years) is the duration of this gap.

Where does Van Kampen state there are several years between the rapture and the "return in glory"? I believe all Van Kampen said was that there would be something like it would be less than 30 days before the battle at Armageddon.
______________________________

Any thoughts Judy? How about this one:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6476/prewrath.html

Well I'm not Judy, but...

Last Trumpet

PreWrath says there are two; posttrib says there are one... Prewrath is correct. The Trump of God Paul writes about is NOT the seventh angelic trump.

Saints are Rewarded

It says prewrath says there are two. I don't recall Van Kampen teaching that. Page number please if I'm wrong.

2. Regarding the second half of Daniel's 70th week:

a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is "rendered useless" at the beginning of the DOTL. If so, the antichrist could complain to God that He was untrue to His word, since He had given him 42 months to act,

Well, my book does not say this at all on page 337.Is it a typo? I'd like to see the proper page numberif this was really written. It does stand to reason that Satan's power will be no match for God once HIS Wrath begins. I see Satan's power as having little effect once Wrath begins.

I really fon't have the time to dispute all of where Van Kampen was misrepresented on this link, but Jason, you have the book and have read it. You should be able to dispute the writer.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi J,

I may be repeating some stuff, but I want to comment anyway.

Actually JM
You have a point here. My biggest problem is the ''TIME LINE'' of all this...
I have found twice as many problems with this view and will post them up shortly. I am crossing my T's and dotting my I's before I get lynched....I will say this and may change my mind. But according to the Pre Wrath position The church is basically going to go through the tribulation...Nearly all if not all 7 years...when the bible clearly says that the church age is over at the start of chapter 4....

I believe this is nothing more than speculation. The Bible doesn't clearly say this. If it was that clear, we wouldn't be here debating. ;-) Besides, I believe the Bible is clear on the fact that the GT and Wrath are two seperate events and that the Trib IS NOT seven years in length. I just don't understand why the church feels it is exempt from Tribulation when Jesus teaches otherwise. Please read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.â€Â

No, it says what it says and we should not interject preconceived thoughts into the verse. I don't think it's proper to read a verse, then say, "well, I think it really means this". That's not good exegesis of scripture.

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This is a promise of protection, not removal. Michael explained it well.

Oh, if anyone really wants to critique the position, I recommend they read the book and not rely on web sources. They seem to misrepresent the position in many cases.

 

[Judy]

I haven't forgotten this topic.. I have a couple more busy weeks at work, with all the after christmas sales. Then I can once again post a reply.

This is a promise of protection, not removal. Michael explained it well.

Oh, if anyone really wants to critique the position, I recommend they read the book and not rely on web sources. They seem to misrepresent the position in many cases.

Not only that Vic, but this whole study touched on every question that has been ask so far.

 

[jgredline]

: : : : :

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:1-8

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Hey Michael
You just convinced me that Jesus is God... :wink:

 

[jgredline]

I haven't forgotten this topic.. I have a couple more busy weeks at work, with all the after christmas sales. Then I can once again post a reply.




Not only that Vic, but this whole study touched on every question that has been ask so far.

Judy.
Nobody that I can see is being critical. I for one am trying to learn this new to me theory of pre wrath....I have printed the papers you posted and there is alot of them, so I will not post again on this topic until I have finished them.
Hopefully in a few more days...or maybe a week...