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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture
- Thread starter Judy
- Start date
reply
The Second Advent:
Now let's examine some scriptures concerning the Second Advent.
2 Thess. 1:6-9: It is evident from these Scriptures that Paul is referrring to the Second Advent described in Rev. 19:11-21. This is the same event he had referred to in 1 Thess. 5:22, when he said the Lord shall come ..as a thief in the night. He mentions the Second Advent first, because after he had written the first epistle to the Thess, it seems from the context, that someone had written a letter ( possibly forging Paul's name to it) saying that the Day of Christ ( referring to the Second Advent) was upon them. So Paul dealt with this in chapter 2.
Two Separate Events: 2 Thess. 2:1: At first glance, it would seem that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him are the same event. However, after studying the context closely, I believe the phrase the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is referring to the Second Advent which is also called the day of Christ in the next verse.
I believe Paul mentioned the Second Advent first, because some false teachers were saying the Day of Christ was at hand. He was trying to assure them that it was not true. He also pointed out the difference between the coming of the Lord to the earth at His Second Advent and our gathering together unto Him at the time of the Rapture. This seems to be the reason he mentioned them both in the same verse. Yet, these are definitely separate events. They are different in purpose and will be separated in time by exactly seven years.
Two Major Events before the Day of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:1-3: Paul assured them that he had not changed his doctrine. He said that there were two things which absolutely had to pass before the Day of Christ ( Second Advent) which referes to Christ's coming to the earth to set up His kingdom.
First: There would come a falling away. Second: The man of Sin ( Antichrist) would be revealed.
Let's investigate the Greek word apostasia, which translated falling away. It is only used two places in the New Testament. Here, in 2 Thess 2:3, it is translated falling away, but in Acts 21:21 it is translated forsake. The Amplified Bible footnotes 2 Thess. 2:3 stating, a possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is departure ( of the Church).
If you give time and thought to these verses, that seems to be the only possible meaning it could have in context which it was written.
I don't believe there will be wholesale backsliding in the Church before the return of Christ. There are some who have departed from the faith; there have always been some backsliders. But Paul is not referring to a backsliding Church. In the context, I am convinced he is referrin to the departure of the Body of Christ ( the Church) from the earth before the Man of Sin ( Antichrist) is revealed.
I will add more support later.
May God bless, Golfjack
The Second Advent:
Now let's examine some scriptures concerning the Second Advent.
2 Thess. 1:6-9: It is evident from these Scriptures that Paul is referrring to the Second Advent described in Rev. 19:11-21. This is the same event he had referred to in 1 Thess. 5:22, when he said the Lord shall come ..as a thief in the night. He mentions the Second Advent first, because after he had written the first epistle to the Thess, it seems from the context, that someone had written a letter ( possibly forging Paul's name to it) saying that the Day of Christ ( referring to the Second Advent) was upon them. So Paul dealt with this in chapter 2.
Two Separate Events: 2 Thess. 2:1: At first glance, it would seem that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him are the same event. However, after studying the context closely, I believe the phrase the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is referring to the Second Advent which is also called the day of Christ in the next verse.
I believe Paul mentioned the Second Advent first, because some false teachers were saying the Day of Christ was at hand. He was trying to assure them that it was not true. He also pointed out the difference between the coming of the Lord to the earth at His Second Advent and our gathering together unto Him at the time of the Rapture. This seems to be the reason he mentioned them both in the same verse. Yet, these are definitely separate events. They are different in purpose and will be separated in time by exactly seven years.
Two Major Events before the Day of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:1-3: Paul assured them that he had not changed his doctrine. He said that there were two things which absolutely had to pass before the Day of Christ ( Second Advent) which referes to Christ's coming to the earth to set up His kingdom.
First: There would come a falling away. Second: The man of Sin ( Antichrist) would be revealed.
Let's investigate the Greek word apostasia, which translated falling away. It is only used two places in the New Testament. Here, in 2 Thess 2:3, it is translated falling away, but in Acts 21:21 it is translated forsake. The Amplified Bible footnotes 2 Thess. 2:3 stating, a possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is departure ( of the Church).
If you give time and thought to these verses, that seems to be the only possible meaning it could have in context which it was written.
I don't believe there will be wholesale backsliding in the Church before the return of Christ. There are some who have departed from the faith; there have always been some backsliders. But Paul is not referring to a backsliding Church. In the context, I am convinced he is referrin to the departure of the Body of Christ ( the Church) from the earth before the Man of Sin ( Antichrist) is revealed.
I will add more support later.
May God bless, Golfjack
Vic C.
Member
Hi Jack,
Good post, but I disagree with the pretribulational, evangelical interpretation of apostasia. Yes, it does appear only twice in our NT, but it appears many times throughout the Greek Septuagint. In all cases it is meant to mean a falling out, defection of departure from Faith. This is exactly what Acts 21:21 is suggesting. Again, you add a assumption to your explaination. ("The Amplified Bible footnotes 2 Thess. 2:3 stating, a possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is departure ( of the Church)")
Now, I don't own a copy of the AMP, so I can't say if it has (of the Church) in it's footnootes, but lets take a look at the AMP verse:
I don't see where it suggests the Church will depart (be removed) before antichrist is revealed. That interpretation is rendered outside of a literal reading for the purpose of supporting a pretrb harpazo.
Good post, but I disagree with the pretribulational, evangelical interpretation of apostasia. Yes, it does appear only twice in our NT, but it appears many times throughout the Greek Septuagint. In all cases it is meant to mean a falling out, defection of departure from Faith. This is exactly what Acts 21:21 is suggesting. Again, you add a assumption to your explaination. ("The Amplified Bible footnotes 2 Thess. 2:3 stating, a possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is departure ( of the Church)")
Now, I don't own a copy of the AMP, so I can't say if it has (of the Church) in it's footnootes, but lets take a look at the AMP verse:
I don't see where it suggests the Church will depart (be removed) before antichrist is revealed. That interpretation is rendered outside of a literal reading for the purpose of supporting a pretrb harpazo.
reply
Vic, If you are not Evengelical, then what are you? Are you Born Again? Maybe, you don't agree with Evengelicals on this point. anyway, I guess we have differences of interpretations from the Bible about end-times. That's OK however. Have a very Merry Christmas.
May God bless, Golfjack
Vic, If you are not Evengelical, then what are you? Are you Born Again? Maybe, you don't agree with Evengelicals on this point. anyway, I guess we have differences of interpretations from the Bible about end-times. That's OK however. Have a very Merry Christmas.
May God bless, Golfjack
reply
Let's examine 2 Thess. 2:3-7: The scriptures reveal there is an appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed, and he will not be revealed until that time. The time allotted to him is an exact period of seven years. It begins immediately after the rapture of the Church.
His time is referred to as Daniel's Seventieth Week ( see Daniel 9:26, 27), which is a week of years. Therefore, it is a seven year period of time, no more or less. The Antichrist will come to his end the same day that Christ returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom ( Rev. 19:1-20).
Let's go to 2 Thess. 2:6: Christians are to reflect Christ who is the light of the world. We are capable of reflecting His light to a sin-darkened world such intensity that it restrains the Antichrist spirit. It is the Church ( Body of Christ) that withholds the Antichrist until the Church is taken out of the earth.
It seems that God turnede His time clock off concerning Israel after the sixty-nine weeks prophesied in Daniel 9: 25, 26. Daniel's Seventieth Week must begin at a prewcise time, and that is at the end of the Church Age. The last day of the Church age will bring about both the Resurrection of the righteous dead and the cathing away ( departure) of the Body of Christ, known as the Church. So we know thev true Church is what withholds and restrains the Antichrist until his time period arrives.
Let's examine 2 Thess 2:7: According to Strong's Concordance the word translated as both letteth and let in this verse means to hold down. It is the same word translated withholdeth in verse 6.
Now let's investigate verse 7 a little closer. Notice the pronoun, He: He who holods down will hold down until he be taken out of the way. The He who restrains or holds down in verse 7 by implicatiion seems to be the same referred to in verse 3 which will fall away or depart. We certainly couldn't apply the pronoun he to a falling away or a backsliding. However, the pronoun he has always applied to the Church. Therefore, I believe He who restrains or withholds the Antichrist from being revealed is the Church, the Body of Christ. The truth is that God has the Antichrist zipped up in a short time slot, and he can't be revealed until after the departure of the Church.
Let's examine the word he, as some seem to think in verse 7 refers to the Holy Spirit. More later about this.
May God bless, Golfjack
Let's examine 2 Thess. 2:3-7: The scriptures reveal there is an appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed, and he will not be revealed until that time. The time allotted to him is an exact period of seven years. It begins immediately after the rapture of the Church.
His time is referred to as Daniel's Seventieth Week ( see Daniel 9:26, 27), which is a week of years. Therefore, it is a seven year period of time, no more or less. The Antichrist will come to his end the same day that Christ returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom ( Rev. 19:1-20).
Let's go to 2 Thess. 2:6: Christians are to reflect Christ who is the light of the world. We are capable of reflecting His light to a sin-darkened world such intensity that it restrains the Antichrist spirit. It is the Church ( Body of Christ) that withholds the Antichrist until the Church is taken out of the earth.
It seems that God turnede His time clock off concerning Israel after the sixty-nine weeks prophesied in Daniel 9: 25, 26. Daniel's Seventieth Week must begin at a prewcise time, and that is at the end of the Church Age. The last day of the Church age will bring about both the Resurrection of the righteous dead and the cathing away ( departure) of the Body of Christ, known as the Church. So we know thev true Church is what withholds and restrains the Antichrist until his time period arrives.
Let's examine 2 Thess 2:7: According to Strong's Concordance the word translated as both letteth and let in this verse means to hold down. It is the same word translated withholdeth in verse 6.
Now let's investigate verse 7 a little closer. Notice the pronoun, He: He who holods down will hold down until he be taken out of the way. The He who restrains or holds down in verse 7 by implicatiion seems to be the same referred to in verse 3 which will fall away or depart. We certainly couldn't apply the pronoun he to a falling away or a backsliding. However, the pronoun he has always applied to the Church. Therefore, I believe He who restrains or withholds the Antichrist from being revealed is the Church, the Body of Christ. The truth is that God has the Antichrist zipped up in a short time slot, and he can't be revealed until after the departure of the Church.
Let's examine the word he, as some seem to think in verse 7 refers to the Holy Spirit. More later about this.
May God bless, Golfjack
Judy
Member
You say that Antichrist's time will be exactly 7 years no more no less. If this is true, then what do you do with Matt. 24:21-22 where God says that unless those days be shorten no one will survive and for the elects sake God will shorten those days.
- Matt 24:21. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22. "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.[/*:m:a0fef]
We know no such thing, You are going to have to give me chapter and verse please. And not just your assumption.
You what me to read what you have posted but you seem not to give me the same courtesy. So, I will post what this study says about who the restrainer is.
reply
Judy, What kind of Church do you belong to? This teaching about Michael the Archangel being the restrainer is very strange to me. My protection is found in our Lord Jesus Christ, and nobody else. This is why it is impossible for a Believer to go through any part of ther Tribulation. Again, what is a tribulation saint? What is a saint? Do you see the difference?
May God bless, Golfjack
Judy, What kind of Church do you belong to? This teaching about Michael the Archangel being the restrainer is very strange to me. My protection is found in our Lord Jesus Christ, and nobody else. This is why it is impossible for a Believer to go through any part of ther Tribulation. Again, what is a tribulation saint? What is a saint? Do you see the difference?
May God bless, Golfjack
Vic C.
Member
Re: reply
What am I? I am a new creature. :angel: I'm washed in the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He is my Messiah, my Savior. Yes I am born again, or born from above. Whether or not I am Evangelical doesn't mean I have to believe everything they say or teach. The Spirit instructs me to search the Scriptures for Truth and to test the spirits to see if they are of God.
For me, it's not just a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of proper exegesis and scriptural harmony. I guess I am more literal than literalistic. I first and foremost allow scripture to clarify itself over trying to be too critical. This is probably why I lean toward word for word translations derived from the TR. I tend to avoid thought for thought translations. After that, I will search for historical and cultural writings that may help clarify Scripture. This is how I interpret things like His birth, death, the Last Trunp, etc.
I hope this helps you understand how I "view" Scripture.
Peace,
Vic
You too... enjoy Christmas. I'm on my way to my sis's in a few for dinner. :-Dgolfjack said:
What am I? I am a new creature. :angel: I'm washed in the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He is my Messiah, my Savior. Yes I am born again, or born from above. Whether or not I am Evangelical doesn't mean I have to believe everything they say or teach. The Spirit instructs me to search the Scriptures for Truth and to test the spirits to see if they are of God.
For me, it's not just a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of proper exegesis and scriptural harmony. I guess I am more literal than literalistic. I first and foremost allow scripture to clarify itself over trying to be too critical. This is probably why I lean toward word for word translations derived from the TR. I tend to avoid thought for thought translations. After that, I will search for historical and cultural writings that may help clarify Scripture. This is how I interpret things like His birth, death, the Last Trunp, etc.
I hope this helps you understand how I "view" Scripture.
Peace,
Vic
S
Solo
Guest
Re: reply
I made a list of all verses of scripture that referred to the coming of Jesus Christ, and presented them to two pre-trib pastors who were unable to associate which ones were written for the Jews and which ones were written to the Church. The bottom line is that the entire New Testament was written to believers in Jesus Christ, not the unbelieving Jews.
The only verse of Scripture that aligns with the rapture is the verse in 2 Thessalonians 4 and the verses in 1 Corinthians 15. All other pre-trib ramble is speculative at best, and hopeful in the very least. At no time in History has the church been kept from the tribulation poured out on them by the enemy, and the great tribulation period will be no different. The great tribulation period will not cease until God cuts the time short for the believers, after which the wrath of God will be poured out on the unbelieving after the sixth seal.
Is Jesus talking to believers or unbelievers in Matthew 24 and Luke 21?
Do a study on Michael the Archangel. I was impressed that Michael was the restrainer after reading the Scriptures many years ago, prior to reading any prewrath books.golfjack said:
I made a list of all verses of scripture that referred to the coming of Jesus Christ, and presented them to two pre-trib pastors who were unable to associate which ones were written for the Jews and which ones were written to the Church. The bottom line is that the entire New Testament was written to believers in Jesus Christ, not the unbelieving Jews.
The only verse of Scripture that aligns with the rapture is the verse in 2 Thessalonians 4 and the verses in 1 Corinthians 15. All other pre-trib ramble is speculative at best, and hopeful in the very least. At no time in History has the church been kept from the tribulation poured out on them by the enemy, and the great tribulation period will be no different. The great tribulation period will not cease until God cuts the time short for the believers, after which the wrath of God will be poured out on the unbelieving after the sixth seal.
Is Jesus talking to believers or unbelievers in Matthew 24 and Luke 21?
reply
Just trying to be honest with you Judy. You see, I don't hang around other Christians that believe the way you do about end-times. If I offended you, I am sorry. It might help if you would tell me what Denomination you are from, but you don't have to. I am real honest when I say that I am Charismatic Pentecostal from a Word of Faith Church, and sure proud about what God has showed me from His Word. Merry Christmas.
May God bless, Golfjack
Just trying to be honest with you Judy. You see, I don't hang around other Christians that believe the way you do about end-times. If I offended you, I am sorry. It might help if you would tell me what Denomination you are from, but you don't have to. I am real honest when I say that I am Charismatic Pentecostal from a Word of Faith Church, and sure proud about what God has showed me from His Word. Merry Christmas.
May God bless, Golfjack
reply
Again, I am sorry if I picked on you. Next time I will have to speak to a general audience. I am glad that you are Baptist. I was worried by your statement about Michael the Archangel, that you were a morman. You have to realize that I am a Preacher, and sometimes I have to break some sacred cows or step on some toes. Therefore, Please forgive me for being so direct with you and others. I am called by God to preach the Word the best way I know how to.
May God bless, Golfjack
Again, I am sorry if I picked on you. Next time I will have to speak to a general audience. I am glad that you are Baptist. I was worried by your statement about Michael the Archangel, that you were a morman. You have to realize that I am a Preacher, and sometimes I have to break some sacred cows or step on some toes. Therefore, Please forgive me for being so direct with you and others. I am called by God to preach the Word the best way I know how to.
May God bless, Golfjack
reply
Let's examine Dan. 12:1-3: I believe verse 1 is another Christphany ( a pre-incarnate appearance of the Glorious Christ. Heb. 6:13 says I heard the man clothed in linen who swore by Him who lives forever ( Dan. 12:7; Heb. 6:13).
The main events of the end ( vv. 1-3:
1. Michael shall stand up... for the sons of your people ( v.1). This refers to the future. Rev. 12:7-10 describes Michael warring with Satan and casting him out of heaven, as Satan makes his final attempt to destroy Israel and the Tribulation saints, those who believe on Christ during the final seven years ( Rev. 12:13).
2. It shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation (V. 1). Christ said there will be great tribulation ( Matt. 24:21, 22).
3. Your people shall be delivered ( v. 1). So states Rev. 12:11, 14-16, as well as Zech. 12:9; 13:9; and 14:3, 4.
4. The dead will be resurrected ( v. 2). This is the clearest Old Testament testimony to the Resurrection. It was pronounced in its absolute fullness after Christ Himself conquered the grave and for us forever ( Rev. 1:18; 1 Cor. 35-44).
5. There will be rewards for 144,000 from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel, as well as for a great host of Gentles who will evangelize the nations during the Tribulation, having turned many to righteousness, in heaven they will shine like the stars forever and ever ( v. 3; Rev. 7:1-17). Saved souls of all denominations will receive a special reward in heaven ( 1 Thess. 2:19, 20).
Folks, this study has been good for me, as I was refreshed by studying my old notes from College. This will probably be my last post about that, and I imagine you guys will be glad. Merry Christmas to all, and happy soul hunting.
May God bless, Golfjack
Let's examine Dan. 12:1-3: I believe verse 1 is another Christphany ( a pre-incarnate appearance of the Glorious Christ. Heb. 6:13 says I heard the man clothed in linen who swore by Him who lives forever ( Dan. 12:7; Heb. 6:13).
The main events of the end ( vv. 1-3:
1. Michael shall stand up... for the sons of your people ( v.1). This refers to the future. Rev. 12:7-10 describes Michael warring with Satan and casting him out of heaven, as Satan makes his final attempt to destroy Israel and the Tribulation saints, those who believe on Christ during the final seven years ( Rev. 12:13).
2. It shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation (V. 1). Christ said there will be great tribulation ( Matt. 24:21, 22).
3. Your people shall be delivered ( v. 1). So states Rev. 12:11, 14-16, as well as Zech. 12:9; 13:9; and 14:3, 4.
4. The dead will be resurrected ( v. 2). This is the clearest Old Testament testimony to the Resurrection. It was pronounced in its absolute fullness after Christ Himself conquered the grave and for us forever ( Rev. 1:18; 1 Cor. 35-44).
5. There will be rewards for 144,000 from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel, as well as for a great host of Gentles who will evangelize the nations during the Tribulation, having turned many to righteousness, in heaven they will shine like the stars forever and ever ( v. 3; Rev. 7:1-17). Saved souls of all denominations will receive a special reward in heaven ( 1 Thess. 2:19, 20).
Folks, this study has been good for me, as I was refreshed by studying my old notes from College. This will probably be my last post about that, and I imagine you guys will be glad. Merry Christmas to all, and happy soul hunting.
May God bless, Golfjack
jgredline
Member
WOW
This is going to require some re-reading of this thread ;-)
So far what I see from Jack and the rest is ''almost'' the same thing. ''I'' believe the problem comes down to the definition of certain meanings...
I believe Vic did a good job of explaining the Pre Wrath position and from what He describes of what ''Pre Wrath'' I would call ''Pre Great Tribulation''....Techinically I believe from what is being described here is that the Pre Wrath theory will take place during the Great Tribulation period....
I don't believe this to be true, let me explain.
A chart of where Pre wrath is supposed to take place within the seven year or even the last 3.5 year period would really help....For all we know we could be in the tribulation period right now. Sure here in the US we live in our cosey homes, but Christians are being persecuted all around the world...Now I don't believe this because I believe that things will be much worse... I say this just to make a point.....Now when I say That I am a Pre trib kind of guy, I should say ''I am a Great Trib kinda guy''...I do not believe the Church will go through the last Three and a half years because that is where Gods Wrath will be poured out....as where the first 3 1/2 years are basically Satans....or the AntiChrist....I believe Christians will recognize him and try to expose him and thus lead to the mass persecution of the Saints...
Now for me alot hinges on this section of scripture...
1 Thess 5:9-11
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
So then the question becomes. When does the wrath of God begin? When is God going to pour his judgement on the ''Non believers''...Right before that happens, Thats when we are gone.....What Satan and the AnitChrist do are not a part of Gods wrath..Remember Satan is still the God of this world at this time....
Now again, if you were to talk to Christians in Malasia or Indonesia many would tell you that we are in the tribulation right now. Beheadings and the spilling of Christian blood is a regular thing in many countries through out this world....at this time..So how will we know when the seven year tribulation period really starts?
Anyway these are just some quick thoughts. I have never heard of Pre Wrath until I joined this board, but then again I have not done the deep study on end times like you folks have....
Well, I have some tamales waiting for me downstairs, so for now I am out.
This is going to require some re-reading of this thread ;-)
So far what I see from Jack and the rest is ''almost'' the same thing. ''I'' believe the problem comes down to the definition of certain meanings...
I believe Vic did a good job of explaining the Pre Wrath position and from what He describes of what ''Pre Wrath'' I would call ''Pre Great Tribulation''....Techinically I believe from what is being described here is that the Pre Wrath theory will take place during the Great Tribulation period....
I don't believe this to be true, let me explain.
A chart of where Pre wrath is supposed to take place within the seven year or even the last 3.5 year period would really help....For all we know we could be in the tribulation period right now. Sure here in the US we live in our cosey homes, but Christians are being persecuted all around the world...Now I don't believe this because I believe that things will be much worse... I say this just to make a point.....Now when I say That I am a Pre trib kind of guy, I should say ''I am a Great Trib kinda guy''...I do not believe the Church will go through the last Three and a half years because that is where Gods Wrath will be poured out....as where the first 3 1/2 years are basically Satans....or the AntiChrist....I believe Christians will recognize him and try to expose him and thus lead to the mass persecution of the Saints...
Now for me alot hinges on this section of scripture...
1 Thess 5:9-11
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
So then the question becomes. When does the wrath of God begin? When is God going to pour his judgement on the ''Non believers''...Right before that happens, Thats when we are gone.....What Satan and the AnitChrist do are not a part of Gods wrath..Remember Satan is still the God of this world at this time....
Now again, if you were to talk to Christians in Malasia or Indonesia many would tell you that we are in the tribulation right now. Beheadings and the spilling of Christian blood is a regular thing in many countries through out this world....at this time..So how will we know when the seven year tribulation period really starts?
Anyway these are just some quick thoughts. I have never heard of Pre Wrath until I joined this board, but then again I have not done the deep study on end times like you folks have....
Well, I have some tamales waiting for me downstairs, so for now I am out.
Vic C.
Member
No jack, I will not be happy to see you stop posting. This is an interesting study, I agree. I believed in pretrib, sight unseen, so to speak. I read Late, Great Planet earth back in the 70's while still in high school. I just assumed that he and others who taught this knew much more than I did and took their word on faith. It wasn't until I was saved seven years ago... and started to study End Times with my newfound yearning to understand the Bible, did I start to question things I believed. I was introduced to the Pre Wrath position a few years ago and have learned much from it. I learned a lot from the Jewish perspective of things and it was a real eye opener.
Which brings me to Michael. In the book, The Sign, Van Kampen taught a bit from the teachings of the late Jewish Rabbi and scholar Rashi. Let me give you a little insight on Michael's relationship with Israel.
He was their prince, their chief prince. Daniel 10:13 Daniel 10:21
Basically he was their advocate; their protector. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael
Anyways, Van Kampen pointed out that according to Rashi, the phrase "stand up" was a Hebrew idiom for "Stand still". It is this understanding that leads us to believe Michael is the restrainer, for he is the one in Daniel 12:1 that stands up (stands still) and he is the one in 2 thess 2:7 who holds back but is taken out of the way by 'standing still'.
After Michael is taken out of the way, Revelation 12:13 shows us that the dragon is on earth and now turns his attention to the woman, who I believe is Israel, but they somehow are again protected in the wilderness. He then turns his attention to the remnant of the woman's seed, whom I believe is the ekklesia.
I believe Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit is more of a guide, instructor and comforter than it is a protector. If he is our protector, why all the martyrs and tribulation against believers in the last 2,000 years? Pretribulation is at a loss to explain this.
As to not drag on too long; here is Rashi's interpretation and commentary on Daniel 12:
Which brings me to Michael. In the book, The Sign, Van Kampen taught a bit from the teachings of the late Jewish Rabbi and scholar Rashi. Let me give you a little insight on Michael's relationship with Israel.
He was their prince, their chief prince. Daniel 10:13 Daniel 10:21
Basically he was their advocate; their protector. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael
Anyways, Van Kampen pointed out that according to Rashi, the phrase "stand up" was a Hebrew idiom for "Stand still". It is this understanding that leads us to believe Michael is the restrainer, for he is the one in Daniel 12:1 that stands up (stands still) and he is the one in 2 thess 2:7 who holds back but is taken out of the way by 'standing still'.
After Michael is taken out of the way, Revelation 12:13 shows us that the dragon is on earth and now turns his attention to the woman, who I believe is Israel, but they somehow are again protected in the wilderness. He then turns his attention to the remnant of the woman's seed, whom I believe is the ekklesia.
I believe Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit is more of a guide, instructor and comforter than it is a protector. If he is our protector, why all the martyrs and tribulation against believers in the last 2,000 years? Pretribulation is at a loss to explain this.
As to not drag on too long; here is Rashi's interpretation and commentary on Daniel 12:
Vic C.
Member
J, you said:
I know the PreWrath position fairly well and can defend it, so I will stick to that defense and leave any form of partial historicism out of the equation.
So... you want a chart? hehehe
sorry for the blurry block of text in red. I don't know how that happened.
To make it short and sweet:
7 years begins, time of peace----->midway<---Great Trib-Harpazo-Wrath of God--> end 7 years, Jesus physically returns to Earth
A future seven year period is highly possible, as is a historic seven year period that may have nothing to do at all with any Tribulation or Wrath. As you said, it is possible we could be in an undefined period of Tribulation, with a Wrath to come in the future, as I wrote about in the End Times Forum.
I know the PreWrath position fairly well and can defend it, so I will stick to that defense and leave any form of partial historicism out of the equation.
So... you want a chart? hehehe
sorry for the blurry block of text in red. I don't know how that happened.
To make it short and sweet:
7 years begins, time of peace----->midway<---Great Trib-Harpazo-Wrath of God--> end 7 years, Jesus physically returns to Earth
jgredline
Member
Vic C. said:A future seven year period is highly possible, as is a historic seven year period that may have nothing to do at all with any Tribulation or Wrath. As you said, it is possible we could be in an undefined period of Tribulation, with a Wrath to come in the future, as I wrote about in the End Times Forum.
So... you want a chart? hehehe
sorry for the blurry block of text in red. I don't know how that happened.
To make it short and sweet:
7 years begins, time of peace----->midway<---Great Trib-Harpazo-Wrath of God--> end 7 years, Jesus physically returns to Earth
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?â€Â
OK, So based on the chart you provided and based on Scripture, and in particular take a look at Verse 16, it would be safe to say that the Wrath of God is unleashed here so it seems to me that this is where the rapture will take place.
Now where is the 6th seal opened compared to the 7 year tribulation period?
Where does the Great Tribulation period begin in regards to the 6th seal?
Vic C.
Member
Yes, this is where we believe the harpazo will take place. As Jason has pointed out in another thread, it doesn't explictly say that, but it is implied according to Rev 7:9-14. This we believe, are the ones in 1 thess 4:16-17 and all who have come to Faith in the Lord Jesus during the time of great persecution.
Since we believe the Day of the Lord is this Wrath, this interpretation fits in well with 2 thess 2:1-3.
Aprox. midway through the second half of this final week. Exactly when, I can't say. Remember, the GT is cut short and we are not to know the day and hour. I believe however, that it has something to do with the Last Trump, which will be blown at Rosh HaShanah.
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm
Read the short article at that link and notice the similarities between Jewish customs and 2 thess 4:16-17.
PreWrath believes it is at or right around the fifth seal.
Peace
S
Solo
Guest
Jesus speaks of the period of Great Tribulation in Matthew 24. It occurs immediately after the abomination of desolation occurs.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:15-22
I believe that this period of time occurs at the fifth seal as we see that the souls of those that were killed for their faith, and were told to rest until their fellow servants and brethren should be killed as well.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:15-22I believe that this period of time occurs at the fifth seal as we see that the souls of those that were killed for their faith, and were told to rest until their fellow servants and brethren should be killed as well.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11