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The Chair of Peter

JLB said:
His Commandments are written on our heart and mind if we in covenant with Him; born again by the Spirit.

The New Testament or New Covenant is written to teach us and instruct us in the way of righteousness, in which we are led and guided by the Spirit of truth.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

  • just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

This how we are instructed to remain “in Christ” —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB
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If all that is true then why is the Holy Spirit teaching contradictory doctrines to billions of Christians?
 
JLB said:
The Pope is not infallible.
The Pope is infallible in matters of faith or morals.

:confused
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This was explained very well by someone here.
And, this is a good reason to have this forum...so much is misunderstood about the CC.

The Pope is a human like everyone else.
He sins and goes to confession in the Catholic way every week, according to his own words.
He definitely has his own opinions about how the CC should function and what should and should not be accepted as doctrine. He has made many errors in speaking to news sources and they have had to be corrected...just like happens to President Biden.

But the Pope is also a part of the magisterium...the governing body of the CC.
The Bishops, World-wide, also make up the magesterium.

When the Pope is SPEAKING AS POPE, which is very rarely, then he is required to state doctrine as is understood by the CC throughout all its history. When he takes his oath as Pope, he promises that he will not alter doctrine.

If he did, the bishops world-wide would have much to say. Actually, this has happened to this Pope on at least one very important occasion that I can think of - a few years ago.

So, when the Pope is speaking in the capacity of POPE, it can only be on matters of:
FAITH...the unified faith of the CC
MORALS...self-explanatory, or maybe Mungo could help me out here.

Unlike Protestant churches that believe different doctrine, and which you must know really bothers me, the CC is one in a belief system. I don't accept all the doctrine of the CC which is why I'd by hypocritical to call myself Catholic, however, I also don't care for all these odd ideas some come up with - of which you are very well aware.

So:

The Pope is fallible
The Pope is not fallible when speaking as the office of the Pope, or ex-cathedra.

It's easy if you think of it.
 
Niblo said:
Agreed. Any other notion is quite ridiculous.
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Well, we had the reformation.
I believe it was necessary,
but I'm sorry it was necessary.

I feel that the Protestant teachings explain better the word of God.
Catholicism makes it a bit more difficult.

Maybe there should be a post on this?
 
wondering said:
So, when the Pope is speaking in the capacity of POPE, it can only be on matters of:
FAITH...the unified faith of the CC
MORALS...self-explanatory, or maybe Mungo could help me out here.
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The great philosopher Immanuel Kant said there are only three absolutely necessary questions that everyone must answer: What can I know? What should I do? What may I hope? In the Christian life I think the answers to these are the three Cs – Creed, Code and Christ.

Creed: What can I know? In other words what do I believe, and why do I believe it? Christians disagree about most areas of belief so how do I ensure that what I believe is the authentic teaching of Christ?

Code [Morals]: What should I do? What code should I live by? What is right and what is wrong? There is a growing vagueness about right and wrong. If it’s right for me its OK seems to be a growing attitude.

And Christ: Jesus is the answer to Kant’s third questions - what may I hope? “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” (1 Pet 1:3).
 
Mungo said:
The great philosopher Immanuel Kant said there are only three absolutely necessary questions that everyone must answer: What can I know? What should I do? What may I hope? In the Christian life I think the answers to these are the three Cs – Creed, Code and Christ.

Creed: What can I know? In other words what do I believe, and why do I believe it? Christians disagree about most areas of belief so how do I ensure that what I believe is the authentic teaching of Christ?

Code [Morals]: What should I do? What code should I live by? What is right and what is wrong? There is a growing vagueness about right and wrong. If it’s right for me its OK seems to be a growing attitude.

And Christ: Jesus is the answer to Kant’s third questions - what may I hope? “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” (1 Pet 1:3).
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Years ago I began turning to the ECFs when I had a doubt about something.
I find that this works very well.
When I bring them up however, I'm told that they were not inspired, as if modern day preachers/teachers are.

And yes, subjectivism is rampant.
I need to start some threads...
 
wondering said:
Well, we had the reformation.
I believe it was necessary,
but I'm sorry it was necessary.

I feel that the Protestant teachings explain better the word of God.
Catholicism makes it a bit more difficult.

Maybe there should be a post on this?
Click to expand...

Which Protestant teachings though?
According to Dave Armstong in his book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, "By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Words, "This is my Body" was published at Ingolstadt, Germany."
 
Mungo said:
Which Protestant teachings though?
According to Dave Armstong in his book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, "By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Words, "This is my Body" was published at Ingolstadt, Germany."
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For instance, when I came to know Jesus on a specific day which I remember very well,
the CC had no bible study and there was nothing to nourish what I was looking for.
The idea then (1970's) was to go to Mass, go to confession and calm down.
I couldn't do this. So I ended up in a Nazarene church in Flushing NY where I learned a lot.
I learned about reading the bible, some biblical history, just a lot of things in general.
I not live in Italy and have a strong relationship with the CC.
I go to bible study at a sanctuary (used to before covid), once a month - it's very good.
and a get-together from Sep to May here near my town, very nice but not a lot of learning.
We have more in common than not, and I'm sorry that I believe we will never be one church.
Can't even agree on justification...I thought we did but then I read the asterisk.

I don't know how THIS IS MY BODY can be interpreted 200 different ways.
 
wondering said:
For instance, when I came to know Jesus on a specific day which I remember very well,
the CC had no bible study and there was nothing to nourish what I was looking for.
The idea then (1970's) was to go to Mass, go to confession and calm down.
I couldn't do this. So I ended up in a Nazarene church in Flushing NY where I learned a lot.
I learned about reading the bible, some biblical history, just a lot of things in general.
I not live in Italy and have a strong relationship with the CC.
I go to bible study at a sanctuary (used to before covid), once a month - it's very good.
and a get-together from Sep to May here near my town, very nice but not a lot of learning.
We have more in common than not, and I'm sorry that I believe we will never be one church.
Can't even agree on justification...I thought we did but then I read the asterisk.

I don't know how THIS IS MY BODY can be interpreted 200 different ways.
Click to expand...

I think the Catholic Church used to be poor at teaching. It sort of assumed children of Catholics went to Catholic schools and were taught there. I would say that when I left my school at 18 I was an agnostic - certainly not a practicing catholic in any real sense.

It has got much, much better especially since the advent of Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Now there are a lot of teaching courses, and proper baptism and marriage preparation (for example).
 
wondering said:
When the Pope is SPEAKING AS POPE, which is very rarely, then he is required to state doctrine as is understood by the CC throughout all its history. When he takes his oath as Pope, he promises that he will not alter doctrine.
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How can a Pope speak in any other way than in the capacity of a Pope? Is he more than one person?
 
Mungo said:
I think the Catholic Church used to be poor at teaching. It sort of assumed children of Catholics went to Catholic schools and were taught there. I would say that when I left my school at 18 I was an agnostic - certainly not a practicing catholic in any real sense.

It has got much, much better especially since the advent of Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Now there are a lot of teaching courses, and proper baptism and marriage preparation (for example).
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Agreed 100%.
My kids went to Catholic schools from 1st grade to the end of high school.
Very good school.

I don't blame schools or the CC because those who will be saved, will be saved.
By this I mean that some will come to have faith in God and some will not, no matter how much they learn or experience.

I used to enjoy the Masses of Fr. Kelleher (?) in the 80's. Healing Masses. They were great.
Actually the Masses of Fra' Lorenzo (at the sanctuary) and Don Alessandro and Don Giovanni are wonderful.
These are faith-filled Christians, not all priests are, but I think that might change in the future.

Enough of this, I guess. It is nice to get to know each other.
I very much respect you and Walpole and I haven't heard much from Niblo but he agrees with me a lot so he can't be all bad ! :)
 
WIP said:
How can a Pope speak in any other way than in the capacity of a Pope? Is he more than one person?
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Let's say the Pope is on a trip and is on a plane heading back to the Vatican.
Reporters go with him just like they follow the President of the US around.
They might ask him a question regarding, let's say, homosexuals. He replies that God loves everybody.
The next day it's reported in newspapers that the CC is now accepting homosexuals at communion.

But he wasn't speaking AS POPE, in the capacity, or chair of Pope.
He was speaking as a human being that has his own ideas.

If the church doctrine on homosexuals being able to receive communion changes,
he would have to write a bull stating exactly what the new teaching is, and other Bishops would have to be in agreement with him.

In this instance he would be speaking ex-cathedra...in the capacity of the POPE, the leader of the CC that is stating that a doctrine is being affirmed.

I should take this opportunity to say that usually a dogma of the CC, which is something one must believe to be called a Catholic, never really is initiated by a Pope, at least not usually, but is only CONFIRMED by him since the belief was within the church anyway and for some reason has come into question.

Is that any clearer?
 
wondering said:
Let's say the Pope is on a trip and is on a plane heading back to the Vatican.
Reporters go with him just like they follow the President of the US around.
They might ask him a question regarding, let's say, homosexuals. He replies that God loves everybody.
The next day it's reported in newspapers that the CC is now accepting homosexuals at communion.

But he wasn't speaking AS POPE, in the capacity, or chair of Pope.
He was speaking as a human being that has his own ideas.

If the church doctrine on homosexuals being able to receive communion changes,
he would have to write a bull stating exactly what the new teaching is, and other Bishops would have to be in agreement with him.

In this instance he would be speaking ex-cathedra...in the capacity of the POPE, the leader of the CC that is stating that a doctrine is being affirmed.

I should take this opportunity to say that usually a dogma of the CC, which is something one must believe to be called a Catholic, never really is initiated by a Pope, at least not usually, but is only CONFIRMED by him since the belief was within the church anyway and for some reason has come into question.

Is that any clearer?
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I think I understand but isn't a Pope always a Pope? Isn't a priest always a priest? Isn't a pastor always a pastor? Doesn't God hold us accountable always?
 
Jesus built his Church on Israel and gave the keys to Peter who was Israel and apostle of Israel. Is the pope Hebrew?.
 
Mungo said:
If all that is true then why is the Holy Spirit teaching contradictory doctrines to billions of Christians?
Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit isn’t teaching contradictory doctrine to millions of believers.


The Holy Spirit doesn’t teach Catholicism or Protestantism, which are just man made terms and doctrines meant to divide us.


The Holy Spirit teaches the truth.

The doctrine of Christ is the truth.

The doctrine of Catholicism is not the truth.





JLB
 
JLB said:
The Holy Spirit isn’t teaching contradictory doctrine to millions of believers.


The Holy Spirit doesn’t teach Catholicism or Protestantism, which are just man made terms and doctrines meant to divide us.


The Holy Spirit teaches the truth.

The doctrine of Christ is the truth.

The doctrine of Catholicism is not the truth.





JLB
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Those who believe in eternal security are just as convinced that they are correct as you and I are convinced that they are not.

Who decides who's right?

As you know, this is very bothersome to me.
 
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