The Charismatic Church movement

[Willie T]

That needs a separate thread since it is quite different from the Charismatic Movement.

Even though Scripture tells us that not all will speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:4-11; 29-31) Charismatics and Pentecostals assume that Paul was mistaken. Paul asked the rhetorical question (whose answer would be "No") -- "Do all speak with tongues?" (v. 30). The modern Tongues Movement answers "Absolutely"!

Also, one of the key characteristics of both groups is that "experience" trumps Scripture. If you have experienced something, it must be true, regardless of what is stated in the Bible. And while Paul said "Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40), Charismatics believe that the more disorder there is, the more spiritual is their meeting.

Haven't had much association with Charismatics, I see.

 

[Jesse]

What is the Emergent Church movement?How do they differ?

An emergent church is the combination of all churches, all political stances, all liberal/conservative, etc.

I attended one, 20,000+ members, at the prime there were 15 campuses. The pastor did some pretty awful stuff, would not reconcile and then resigned. I would never be part of a mega - emergent church again.

I have been thinking about going to a charismatic church lately, just to check things out. I found a couple around me and will pray about them.

 

[reba]

That needs a separate thread since it is quite different from the Charismatic Movement.

Even though Scripture tells us that not all will speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:4-11; 29-31) Charismatics and Pentecostals assume that Paul was mistaken. Paul asked the rhetorical question (whose answer would be "No") -- "Do all speak with tongues?" (v. 30). The modern Tongues Movement answers "Absolutely"!

Also, one of the key characteristics of both groups is that "experience" trumps Scripture. If you have experienced something, it must be true, regardless of what is stated in the Bible. And while Paul said "Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40), Charismatics believe that the more disorder there is, the more spiritual is their meeting.

Wait a minute... Having been in and around people labeled Pentecostals and charismatics all my 68 years this statement is mistaken and very general...

 

[reba]

There are so many Church movements now that I hear about and I am not familiar with them and what they believe.

Yup and we all say we stick to the Word...

 

[Willie T]

Wait a minute... Having been in and around people labeled Pentecostals and charismatics all my 68 years this statement is mistaken and very general...

A big AMEN to my younger sister.

 

[Willie T]

Yup and we all say we stick to the Word...

And maybe as far as it really matters to God, He may feel we do.

 

[reba]

With in reason i like having the different 'churches' or denominations to fit our different personalities some of us are or or or even others not so much:nod then the but we all know this is the way

 

[Malachi]

Wait a minute... Having been in and around people labeled Pentecostals and charismatics all my 68 years this statement is mistaken and very general...

Reba,
Are you saying that Pentecostals and Charismatics do not believe that everyone should speak in tongues, or that their meetings are not disorderly? The quote below is from the Assemblies of God (USA) website regarding their doctrine:

2. What is the evidence of the Spirit-filled life? In the pattern of the Book of Acts, it is clear that the coming of the Spirit was marked with a clear physical sign — the presence of tongues. However, tongues was meant only as a convincing first physical sign. The fruit of the Spirit is the continuous evidence of the Spirit’s work.

But here's a quote from the Orthodox Church (to which I am not related, therefore "third party" testimony) indicating that this is not the same gift as that in Scripture, therefore unacceptable:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frseraphim_charismatics.aspx

If we are already made suspicious by the exaggerated importance accorded to "tongues" by modern Pentecostals, we should be completely awakened about them when we examine the circumstances in which they occur. Far from being given freely and spontaneously, without man's interference - as are the true gifts of the Holy Spirit- speaking in tongues can be caused to occur quite predictably by a regular technique of concentrated group "prayer" accompanied by psychologically suggestive Protestant hymns ("He comes! He comes!"), culminating in a "laying on of hands," and sometimes involving such purely physical efforts as repeating a given phrase over and over again (Koch, p. 24), or just making sounds with the mouth. One person admits that, like many others, after speaking in tongues, "I often did mouth nonsense syllables in an effort to start the flow of prayer-in-tongues" (Sherrill, p. 127); and such efforts, far from being discouraged, are actually advocated by Pentecostals. "Making sounds with the mouth is not 'speaking-in-tongues,' but it may signify an honest act of faith, which the Holy Spirit will honor by giving that person the power to speak in another language" (Harper, p. 11). Another Protestant pastor says: "The initial hurdle to speaking in tongues, it seems, is simply the realization that you must 'speak forth'...The first syllables and words may sound strange to your ear... They may be halting and inarticulate. You may have the thought that you are just making it up. But as you continue to speak in faith... the Spirit will shape for you a language of prayer and praise" (Christenson, p. 130).... Can any sober Orthodox Christian possibly confuse these dangerous psychic games with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?! There is clearly nothing whatever Christian, nothing spiritual here in the least. This is the realm, rather, of psychic mechanisms which can be set in operation by means of definite psychological or physical techniques, and "speaking in tongues" would seem to occupy a key role as a kind of "trigger" in this realm. In any case, it certainly bears no resemblance whatever to the spiritual gift described in the New Testament, and if anything is much closer to shaministic "speaking in tongues" as practiced in primitive religions, where the shaman or witch doctor has a regular technique for going into a trance and then giving a message to or from a "god" in a tongue he has not learned [4].

 

[Willie T]

Love it!

 

[Brother Mike]

Then there is the Word of Faith movement.When did all of these movements come into the Church and why?

Word of Faith is a name given to those that take the Word litterly. it was given by traditional denominations, so unlike the Assyblies of God church who has a standard doctrine, WOF can be anyone that gets the Label.

Christmatics have always been seperated by those as "Tongue talkers" Speaking in tongues was the big rift way back in the early 1900's

The pentecoastal Movement and Christmatic Movement are the same thing, different coat of paint.

Pentecoastale People use to have a big focus on healing and getting folks well, but Modern day Pentecoastles believe more like traditional churches especially the Assymblies of God church.

Also, one of the key characteristics of both groups is that "experience" trumps Scripture. If you have experienced something, it must be true, regardless of what is stated in the Bible. And while Paul said "Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40), Charismatics believe that the more disorder there is, the more spiritual is their meeting.

I'll go scripture to scripture anytime Malachi, and I do pray in tongues. Not ever having been a part, but now your some expert is beyond amazing.

I know all there is about cars, read lot of books, but I never seen one, but trust me, I know all about them....

Cough... cough.....

 

[Kathi]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[th1b.taylor]

So is the Pentecost Church or the Charismatic Church a branch of the Baptist Church?

Fact check and you know why but it is my understanding that the Pentecostals split with the Baptists in the early 1900s. There are still members of the Baptist Movement that claim the Pentecostals left, they took the Holy Spirit with them. I'm a Baptist, through and through but I sometimes shock members in my age range because I do sing songs from everybody's hymnals.

The song on CF for free download is one by John Vaughn out of the Pentecostal Hymnal, I just refuse to sing it in the meter Vaughn wrote it in, to dry to be a love song and when I have sung it, it is a love song.

My Missionary friend, Jeff Mills is a Charismatic Pentecostal. He live under the Fuego Volcano in Guatemala and is an awesome teacher. They are just Christians, just like us.

 

[Brother Mike]

Fact check and you know why but it is my understanding that the Pentecostals split with the Baptists in the early 1900s. There are still members of the Baptist Movement that claim the Pentecostals left, they took the Holy Spirit with them. I'm a Baptist, through and through but I sometimes shock members in my age range because I do sing songs from everybody's hymnals.

The song on CF for free download is one by John Vaughn out of the Pentecostal Hymnal, I just refuse to sing it in the meter Vaughn wrote it in, to dry to be a love song and when I have sung it, it is a love song.

My Missionary friend, Jeff Mills is a Charismatic Pentecostal. He live under the Fuego Volcano in Guatemala and is an awesome teacher. They are just Christians, just like us.

I just assumed (dumb thing to do) that tongues and the other gifts sort of went away with the first church and sort of came back once men started getting revelation again from God.

Checking out quotes and things from History, Truetillian quoted operating in tongues and interpetation. That predates the Trinity Doctrine. Seems there is lots of records form peoples experience concerning the gifts every century.

I don't understand the split into different groups or when it happened, or why.

 

[Michael74]

As far as I can figure out, the way things seem to work in my locale is that local Pentecostals tend to have their own denominations, and separate churches.

Local charismatics often stay in their original denomination. That is, there are Baptist charismatics that hold charismatic meetings during the week at their churches, Catholic charismatic meetings at Catholic churches, etc... Sunday tends to be reserved for the main denominational services, with charismatic meetings on a different day.

Both groups tend to believe that things that took place in the book of Acts still take place today.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I just assumed (dumb thing to do) that tongues and the other gifts sort of went away with the first church and sort of came back once men started getting revelation again from God.

Checking out quotes and things from History, Truetillian quoted operating in tongues and interpetation. That predates the Trinity Doctrine. Seems there is lots of records form peoples experience concerning the gifts every century.

I don't understand the split into different groups or when it happened, or why.

Childish men and women! And ass I recall from my early study, they were doing the split church before Paul died. The most Holy Ghost filled service I ever attended was a gathering of fifty thousand men in the Astro Dome at a Promise Keepers rally. When fifty thousand men join their hearts together to worship,, Amazing Grace brings tears to evry eye in the house and the sound just drives and echoes it's way up to Heaven.

 

[Brother Mike]

Childish men and women! And ass I recall from my early study, they were doing the split church before Paul died. The most Holy Ghost filled service I ever attended was a gathering of fifty thousand men in the Astro Dome at a Promise Keepers rally. When fifty thousand men join their hearts together to worship,, Amazing Grace brings tears to evry eye in the house and the sound just drives and echoes it's way up to Heaven.

Thank you for the response. Baptist are pretty old 1550, but even looking at their histroy its amazing there are baptist. seemed to be a calvin group and a free will group. Them folks fight like cats and dogs. I don't see any Pentecoastal tongue talking debates through until much later.

I am going to assume That if you were calvinist then a tounge talking believer was no big deal compared to someone who believed men had free will.

However, I see tongues in baptist churches today as the gifts of the Spirit are free and not denominational as some thought. Baptist Pastor down the street, older guy been a Baptist Pastor all his life, in his late 60's. He got spirit filled he says and speaks in tongues. Used to preach against it for years.

He now said He figured out that if you just do what James said and anoint them with oil and Pray in faith, (Not those by thy will prayers) God answers obedience to his Word and folks get well.

He doe not tell anyone he prays in tongues though. Still Bapitst, but his small chruch has grown termendously and my mom really liked it. He is not the only Baptist I know that speaks in tongues. We have several around here in Branson, MO

Having the gifts of the spirit operate at whatever level no longer is a denominational thing.

 

[JLB]

What is the Emergent Church movement?How do they differ?

The Emergent Church has very liberal beliefs.

Post Moderism - the belief that there is no "Unversial Truth" but rather truth is what each individual "feels" truth should be, rather than what God says is True. It is also the idea that truth is relative to each culture and time period.

In other words, what was true is Jesus' day, is not necessarily true today.

Example: Today we live in a modern society where same sex marriage is now acceptable, whereas during the first century, when they were writing the New Testament, same sex marriage was not acceptable.


This is just the tip of the iceberg of what the Emergent Church believes.

The Emergent Church is the best example of what Paul wrote about and warned us of.


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


the falling away comes first...

The Emergent Church represents this massive falling away.


JLB

 

[Blake]

I only label myself "Christian", but I affiliate with the Pentecostals, I attend a non-denominational church which is heavy in Pentecostal influences. As one who could be "lumped in" with Pentecostals I just wanted to add that I have never spoken in tongues. I know some who do, I know some who don't. The Charismatics and Pentecostals in my own experience are all very much against the teachings of the Word of Faith movement, and so am I. I've seen and heard TOO MUCH emphasis on the almighty dollar bill. They preach a prosperity gospel, I could show you a bunch of videos, entire sermons wrapped around people "naming and claiming" their millionaire inheritance through the Holy Spirit, wealth and prosperity are hallmarks of true ministry, being poor is not the will of God, and so on. Unscriptural nonsense.

With all fairness I will say that some Pentecostals/Charismatics over-emphasize tongues. God in His mercy will work with them on that issue of pride.

 

[Willie T]

I only label myself "Christian", but I affiliate with the Pentecostals, I attend a non-denominational church which is heavy in Pentecostal influences. As one who could be "lumped in" with Pentecostals I just wanted to add that I have never spoken in tongues. I know some who do, I know some who don't. The Charismatics and Pentecostals in my own experience are all very much against the teachings of the Word of Faith movement, and so am I. I've seen and heard TOO MUCH emphasis on the almighty dollar bill. They preach a prosperity gospel, I could show you a bunch of videos, entire sermons wrapped around people "naming and claiming" their millionaire inheritance through the Holy Spirit, wealth and prosperity are hallmarks of true ministry, being poor is not the will of God, and so on. Unscriptural nonsense.

With all fairness I will say that some Pentecostals/Charismatics over-emphasize tongues. God in His mercy will work with them on that issue of pride.

Very succinctly worded. Thank you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thank you for the response. Baptist are pretty old 1550, but even looking at their histroy its amazing there are baptist. seemed to be a calvin group and a free will group. Them folks fight like cats and dogs. I don't see any Pentecoastal tongue talking debates through until much later.

I am going to assume That if you were calvinist then a tounge talking believer was no big deal compared to someone who believed men had free will.

However, I see tongues in baptist churches today as the gifts of the Spirit are free and not denominational as some thought. Baptist Pastor down the street, older guy been a Baptist Pastor all his life, in his late 60's. He got spirit filled he says and speaks in tongues. Used to preach against it for years.

He now said He figured out that if you just do what James said and anoint them with oil and Pray in faith, (Not those by thy will prayers) God answers obedience to his Word and folks get well.

He doe not tell anyone he prays in tongues though. Still Bapitst, but his small chruch has grown termendously and my mom really liked it. He is not the only Baptist I know that speaks in tongues. We have several around here in Branson, MO

Having the gifts of the spirit operate at whatever level no longer is a denominational thing.

My Pastor has teen and preteen children and he prays in tongues. Not everyone in the Church knows that but he and I counsel one another and he knows I will never burn him. I know others that, also, pray in tongues that are Baptists. I have never been gifted with that gift but I will condemn none for following God.

There are, actually four groups of believers in the Baptist Church. First there are the Five Point Hyper-Calvinists and next there are the Calvinists. The difference is how radical they are. These, probably, make better than two thirds of the general population. Then there are, as you call them, the Free Will believers and between these three groups, they, likely, compose 99.99% of the Baptist Church Membership. The remaining .01% are Biblicists, like me. We do not exclude any scripture to make a point for our beliefs but rather do our best to reconcile the entirety of scripture to understand the message there.

No major issue on the response, I seldom get out of my bed these days and my 'puter is my connection to the World now. Praying this helps and that God blesses you and yours.