The Charismatic Church movement

[Willie T]

Brother Mike we see things just a little differently, but at the end of the day it means right next to nothing. I apologize if I did directly insult you as a person, I count you no less of a man of God than I am (take it for what it's worth, I am a sinner), I still love you like a brother and theology which brings division is hardly theology at all. I just know what sits well and what doesn't sit well with me. I try not to judge anything, and when I do find myself judging I am judging by the fruits of the tree.

I think that kid was well-rehearsed. I think there is too much emphasis on money in my own experiences with WOF. But hey, a lot of the Pentecostals I hang out with put too much emphasis on tongues, so I'm not letting this become a division or a this-vs-that sort of shindig. I bow out respectfully. Much love to you in Christ!

Amen to this!

 

[Malachi]

Just taking #2, to show how silly and even dangerous "cherry picking" scripture to try and "prove" a point is, what you and I both are typing right this moment has to be disregarded as foolishness,,,,,,,,,, BECAUSE, the verse you, yourself, chose to use, goes on to say that KNOWLEDGE will go the same way of tongues, and "vanish away." Well? Is the verse true...... or false? Or, perhaps, does it mean something entirely different from what you want it to?

Willie,
It is certainly not silly or dangerous to bring all the Scriptures from 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 to bear on this subject, neither is it "cherry picking". It is relevance, and you should know that these three chapters are dealing with spiritual gifts. That is not cherry picking.

To answer your question, we need to look at 1 Cor 13:8,10 with a fresh persepective and a proper biblical understanding.

We read "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL (Gk katargethesontai = cease]; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE (Gk pausontai = come to an end); whether there be knowledge it shall VANISH AWAY(Gk katargethesetai = cease)...But when that WHICH IS PERFECT (Gk teleion = complete) is come, then that which is in part (Gk merous = section, piece, portion) shall be DONE AWAY (Gk katargethesetai = cease).

1. Prophecies = supernatural revelations directly from God (prophets)
2. Tongues = supernatural ability to speak foreign languages directly from God
3. Knoweldge = supernatural knowledge directly from God (apostles)
All three spiritual gifts are supernatural, but ALL are also temporary. Why? Because that which relates to prophecies, supernatural knowledge, and supernatural revelations through tongues would not be necessary once the COMPLETE written Word of God was in the hands of Christians.

The book of Revelation was the final NT book, written around 90 AD. At that point, those three temporary gifts ceased, stopped, vanished away. Around 100 AD the Muratori Canon listed all the books of the New Testament. None of the Early Church Fathers (100-400 AD) ever called themselves apostles and prophets either. None of them spoke foreign languages supernaturally.

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike we see things just a little differently, but at the end of the day it means right next to nothing. I apologize if I did directly insult you as a person, I count you no less of a man of God than I am (take it for what it's worth, I am a sinner), I still love you like a brother and theology which brings division is hardly theology at all. I just know what sits well and what doesn't sit well with me. I try not to judge anything, and when I do find myself judging I am judging by the fruits of the tree.

I think that kid was well-rehearsed. I think there is too much emphasis on money in my own experiences with WOF. But hey, a lot of the Pentecostals I hang out with put too much emphasis on tongues, so I'm not letting this become a division or a this-vs-that sort of shindig. I bow out respectfully. Much love to you in Christ!

Well, amen. Go get money, and speak in tongues. I guess that will solve those issues. Folks have issues with those guys that have Lamborghini's, but I find that folks that have them have no issues with other folks having them.

You notice some of those that don't care about the gifts, don't seek tongues make themselves experts on it. I would rather ask the guy that is a Mechanic about my car needing fix than ask someone who never fixed cars and works at the hair salon.

Money used correctly is a good thing though.My church sowed over 100,000.00 to the Salvation Army, spent 300,000 on equipment to clean up a tornado mess in OK. The list goes on. Believing God to be a blessing is a good thing.

Kenneth Copleand ministries sent 4 million to help clean up that mess on the east coast. When He came to preach at our church, the Lord directed him to take all the offering and split it among the workers that helped make the meeting happen. My son got a 600.00 gift card from KCM as part of that money being split. (Wish I was working that meeting)

Money is good, and Jesus said the unjust servant was wise, the Children of Light are ignorant in the operation of unrighteous mammon and we should not be.

Blessings and thank you.

 

[Brother Mike]

Willie,
It is certainly not silly or dangerous to bring all the Scriptures from 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 to bear on this subject, neither is it "cherry picking". It is relevance, and you should know that these three chapters are dealing with spiritual gifts. That is not cherry picking.

To answer your question, we need to look at 1 Cor 13:8,10 with a fresh persepective and a proper biblical understanding.

We read "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL (Gk katargethesontai = cease]; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE (Gk pausontai = come to an end); whether there be knowledge it shall VANISH AWAY(Gk katargethesetai = cease)...But when that WHICH IS PERFECT (Gk teleion = complete) is come, then that which is in part (Gk merous = section, piece, portion) shall be DONE AWAY (Gk katargethesetai = cease).

1. Prophecies = supernatural revelations directly from God (prophets)
2. Tongues = supernatural ability to speak foreign languages directly from God
3. Knoweldge = supernatural knowledge directly from God (apostles)
All three spiritual gifts are supernatural, but ALL are also temporary. Why? Because that which relates to prophecies, supernatural knowledge, and supernatural revelations through tongues would not be necessary once the COMPLETE written Word of God was in the hands of Christians.

The book of Revelation was the final NT book, written around 90 AD. At that point, those three temporary gifts ceased, stopped, vanished away. Around 100 AD the Muratori Canon listed all the books of the New Testament. None of the Early Church Fathers (100-400 AD) ever called themselves apostles and prophets either. None of them spoke foreign languages supernaturally.

Speaking mysteries to God, and the language of Angels is not a foreign language. Paul called speaking in tongues praying in the Spirit, one form of prayer you dismiss.

Tongues shall pass away with knowledge,(Edited, ToS 2.4, insulting and trolling comment. Obadiah.)

That which is perfect shall come is not the completed Word, but something else, but I guess we fail to compare other scriptures in this case.

A smart person would ask those of us that have been speaking in tongues for years how it works, and how to get that. Jesus said if you believe on my name, you shall speak in new tongues. Good enough for me, I went to seek.

Those that are the children of God are led by the Spirit of God, which takes direction and "Knowledge" of what to do. That means we need that word of wisdom and knowledge to operate.

 

[gr8grace3]

Just taking #2, to show how silly and even dangerous "cherry picking" scripture to try and "prove" a point is, what you and I both are typing right this moment has to be disregarded as foolishness,,,,,,,,,, BECAUSE, the verse you, yourself, chose to use, goes on to say that KNOWLEDGE will go the same way of tongues, and "vanish away."

Well? Is the verse true...... or false? Or, perhaps, does it mean something entirely different from what you want it to?

The KNOWLEDGE, that would be prophecy and any word other than the completed Canon of scripture. KNOWLEDGE ended in 96ad, when the Scriptures were completed by John. We need not go any where else for the knowledge we need for God other than the scriptures.Tongues ended in 70 ad when Jerusalem fell and Rome(Gentiles) became Gods client nation.

 

[Blake]

Well, amen. Go get money, and speak in tongues. I guess that will solve those issues. Folks have issues with those guys that have Lamborghini's, but I find that folks that have them have no issues with other folks having them.

You notice those that don't care about the gifts, don't seek tongues make themselves experts on it. I would rather ask the guy that is a Mechanic about my car needing fix than ask someone who never fixed cars and works at the hair salon.

Money used correctly is a good thing though.My church sowed over 100,000.00 to the Salvation Army, spent 300,000 on equipment to clean up a tornado mess in OK. The list goes on. Believing God to be a blessing is a good thing.

Kenneth Copleand ministries sent 4 million to help clean up that mess on the east coast. When He came to preach at our church, the Lord directed him to take all the offering and split it among the workers that helped make the meeting happen. My son got a 600.00 gift card from KCM as part of that money being split. (Wish I was working that meeting)

Money is good, and Jesus said the unjust servant was wise, the Children of Light are ignorant in the operation of unrighteous mammon and we should not be.

Blessings and thank you.

Those are all very, very good things. Undoubtedly God gave the increase where it was needed! One thing about me (and it was not always so, in fact it took a lot of humbling and dashing of my pride) is that I don't consider myself an expert on any topic, especially when it comes to the Bible. I can boast proudly ONE thing in there, that's Christ crucified. I am open to teaching and correction. I will prayerfully consider your words. My issue is the servitude of money, and money-grabbing televangelists which have smeared the name of the church in the name of money. 10% sermon, 90% money grabbing, manipulating peoples emotions to fill their pockets. It's sickening. But a wise man would certainly be able to handle money, if he used it as a tool for the Kingdom and not as a tool of avarice. Already my position has softened a bit.

I was raised in a poor mining town in West Virginia. I was raised up with good, poor people. And I have met bad, rich people. I'm mature enough to understand that there are always exceptions to the rule, but perhaps some of my stance is based upon personal experience and not Biblical experience. Would you mind sharing some scripture about the blessings of the seed of Abraham and the correct use of money? Anything relevant? I appreciate it in advance.

 

[tinykitten]

The Charismatic movement seems to be very popular among the Church right now.Are you among the movement? and how does this movement differ from the Pentecostal Church?Are they similar in ways?

There's Pentecostal the denomination and then there's Pentecostal as in the spirit and those scriptures referring to Pentecost and that invokes the charismatic nature in the individual.

Are we trying to say there's something wrong with pentecostal or charismatic?

 

[Willie T]

I can hardly believe some of this. All God was saying was that His word would outlast anything else we might try to put our faith in, because it, alone, is Eternal....... NOT that His gifts and blessings were screeching to a halt. Good grief! We try to read so much hocus pocus into God's plain message of love.

 

[Blake]

I don't know what I'm more surprised at, the amount of preterism I see on these forums, or the amount of people who have never experienced the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[tinykitten]

Maybe consider that what we read in threads of this nature is a reflection of individual personalities, beliefs, practices, that inhabit our churches. This fracture, if you will, has been extant in the faithful in Christ since denominations were first born.
Jesus was not a Christian.

 

[Willie T]

I don't know what I'm more surprised at, the amount of preterism I see on these forums, or the amount of people who have never experienced the gifts of the Spirit.

I honestly have to say I am surprised at a LOT on here. I thought I left dogma and legalism behind when I left the CoC.

I guess I have spent so much time, since then, around people who do a deeper job of reading the Bible than of learning traditions, that I have kind of forgotten how many people really don't.

 

[Brother Mike]

Those are all very, very good things. Undoubtedly God gave the increase where it was needed! One thing about me (and it was not always so, in fact it took a lot of humbling and dashing of my pride) is that I don't consider myself an expert on any topic, especially when it comes to the Bible. I can boast proudly ONE thing in there, that's Christ crucified. I am open to teaching and correction. I will prayerfully consider your words. My issue is the servitude of money, and money-grabbing televangelists which have smeared the name of the church in the name of money. 10% sermon, 90% money grabbing, manipulating peoples emotions to fill their pockets. It's sickening. But a wise man would certainly be able to handle money, if he used it as a tool for the Kingdom and not as a tool of avarice. Already my position has softened a bit.

I was raised in a poor mining town in West Virginia. I was raised up with good, poor people. And I have met bad, rich people. I'm mature enough to understand that there are always exceptions to the rule, but perhaps some of my stance is based upon personal experience and not Biblical experience. Would you mind sharing some scripture about the blessings of the seed of Abraham and the correct use of money? Anything relevant? I appreciate it in advance.

Umm, they write books on this type of thing. I'll try to make it super short, if you want more I have free teaching online from Keith Moore on these subjects. (My Pastor) Brother Moore was a student under Kenneth Hagin, and taught Rehema Bible school for 20 years.

Gen 22:17-18 kjva 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Way back when we were little, God made a promise to Abraham. A covenant that will never be broken. He told Abraham that his seed shall be blessed, and his seed shall possess the gates of all their enemies. The Jewish folks even today are wealthy because they have a whole lot of faith in this covenant with Abraham God made.

God's desire and the only thing He gets pleasure from is blessing us. Abraham was a tither, and extremely wealthy. In fact to much wealth, to much cattle, to much God. This was before the law, as Abraham lived by faith.

This covenant not only brought provision, but protection, and healing. Jesus came to enforce that covenant with the Power of the Holy Spirit. If someone breaks a Covenant, then something has to die. If God did not keep his end, it would mean death for him. That is how serious this covenant is with God. It's a blood covenant, and through it come all our blessings.

Act 3:25 kjva Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Jesus enforced this covenant.

Luk 13:12-16 kjva 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

This should stop any questions about God's will to heal. Jesus said, this is a Daughter of Abraham and ought to be healed. That covenant, Jesus enforced to be true in someones life. If your a seed of Abraham, then should be no doubts that we are the healed and blessed of the Lord.

Gal 3:7-9 kjva 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Paul asked.......... Know ye therefore? The Gentiles did not have the knowledge of this Abrahamic covenant that the Jewish people did. Paul has to remind them that we are the seed of Abraham whom God swore by an oath to bless us as he did Abraham. We are blessed with Abraham to be in contact with a to much God.

However, its through faith.

You will never hear me say I can't afford something, I am broke, I am always sick, I am scared. Those words never come out of my mouth. I have more than enough and I am blessed with Faithful Abraham, even If I don't physically see it, I will walk by faith, not sight.

When I laid hands on that girl who just gave her life to the Lord, and came up asking, "Will God heal my stomach?" I said of course God will, right here and now, May I put my hand on your stomach. I then said devil, get your hands off God's Daughter, the seed of Abraham, NOW, Stomach be whole, be well in Jesus name.

I did not know, but she was suppose to have surgery that next day on Monday and was only able to eat baby food. I found that out later. I just met her that night when I preached because her friends brought her.

Her Parents came to my house after looking me up and showed me the scan of her stomach. there were light scaring where the Lord repaired her whole stomach, the doctors were stumped. I am glad they showed me.

However, I had that covenant in mind when I laid hands on her. To be bold, you have to know things to back up that boldness and with lots of help from the Holy Spirit. The Chruch I was preaching at did not like me much and did not believe in healing.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

As has been asked of you before Brother Mike and, this from an old Pentecostal, any one in the hospitals in your area?

1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[jasonc]

I can hardly believe some of this. All God was saying was that His word would outlast anything else we might try to put our faith in, because it, alone, is Eternal....... NOT that His gifts and blessings were screeching to a halt. Good grief! We try to read so much hocus pocus into God's plain message of love.

I warned you how anti-pentacostal this site is. ah the old Baptist doctrine of the when the word came.it wasn't put together for at least one hundred years after the death of John.

 

[gr8grace3]

I warned you how anti-pentacostal this site is. ah the old Baptist doctrine of the when the word came.it wasn't put together for at least one hundred years after the death of John.

After John Finished in 96 ad, was there a word or prophesy added to any of the scriptures that were finally put together a 100 years after Johns death? Nope.

 

[gr8grace3]

I honestly have to say I am surprised at a LOT on here. I thought I left dogma and legalism behind when I left the CoC.

I guess I have spent so much time, since then, around people who do a deeper job of reading the Bible than of learning traditions, that I have kind of forgotten how many people really don't.

Can you lay out the doctrine of tongues for me? All I have seen is people SAY they have tongues. I know a few people who have admitted they faked it. You should be able to lay out the doctrine of tongues is for today. I would change my mind if someone could teach the doctrine from scriptures, Not just saying "we do not dig deep." The reason I do not believe tongues is for today IS because I went beyond the surface of the word.

 

[Kathi]

Can you lay out the doctrine of tongues for me? All I have seen is people SAY they have tongues. I know a few people who have admitted they faked it. You should be able to lay out the doctrine of tongues is for today. I would change my mind if someone could teach the doctrine from scriptures, Not just saying "we do not dig deep." The reason I do not believe tongues is for today IS because I went beyond the surface of the word.

This is someone praying in tongues

 

[jasonc]

Umm, they write books on this type of thing. I'll try to make it super short, if you want more I have free teaching online from Keith Moore on these subjects. (My Pastor) Brother Moore was a student under Kenneth Hagin, and taught Rehema Bible school for 20 years.

Gen 22:17-18 kjva 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Way back when we were little, God made a promise to Abraham. A covenant that will never be broken. He told Abraham that his seed shall be blessed, and his seed shall possess the gates of all their enemies. The Jewish folks even today are wealthy because they have a whole lot of faith in this covenant with Abraham God made.

God's desire and the only thing He gets pleasure from is blessing us. Abraham was a tither, and extremely wealthy. In fact to much wealth, to much cattle, to much God. This was before the law, as Abraham lived by faith.

This covenant not only brought provision, but protection, and healing. Jesus came to enforce that covenant with the Power of the Holy Spirit. If someone breaks a Covenant, then something has to die. If God did not keep his end, it would mean death for him. That is how serious this covenant is with God. It's a blood covenant, and through it come all our blessings.

Act 3:25 kjva Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Jesus enforced this covenant.

Luk 13:12-16 kjva 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

This should stop any questions about God's will to heal. Jesus said, this is a Daughter of Abraham and ought to be healed. That covenant, Jesus enforced to be true in someones life. If your a seed of Abraham, then should be no doubts that we are the healed and blessed of the Lord.

Gal 3:7-9 kjva 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Paul asked.......... Know ye therefore? The Gentiles did not have the knowledge of this Abrahamic covenant that the Jewish people did. Paul has to remind them that we are the seed of Abraham whom God swore by an oath to bless us as he did Abraham. We are blessed with Abraham to be in contact with a to much God.

However, its through faith.

You will never hear me say I can't afford something, I am broke, I am always sick, I am scared. Those words never come out of my mouth. I have more than enough and I am blessed with Faithful Abraham, even If I don't physically see it, I will walk by faith, not sight.

When I laid hands on that girl who just gave her life to the Lord, and came up asking, "Will God heal my stomach?" I said of course God will, right here and now, May I put my hand on your stomach. I then said devil, get your hands off God's Daughter, the seed of Abraham, NOW, Stomach be whole, be well in Jesus name.

I did not know, but she was suppose to have surgery that next day on Monday and was only able to eat baby food. I found that out later. I just met her that night when I preached because her friends brought her.

Her Parents came to my house after looking me up and showed me the scan of her stomach. there were light scaring where the Lord repaired her whole stomach, the doctors were stumped. I am glad they showed me.

However, I had that covenant in mind when I laid hands on her. To be bold, you have to know things to back up that boldness and with lots of help from the Holy Spirit. The Chruch I was preaching at did not like me much and did not believe in healing.

Blessings.

uhm where in the torah does it teach that all jewish folk have wealth and know how to invest? that is a culutural things and there are poor jews.
singed a poor jewish male who grew up with no running water or electricity at times. the wealth that jews have comes from that the jews find out that they could be good at money, that happened after ad 70. while one can argue that Jerusalem was the richest city in the roman empire it was by ill begotten means isreal go that. see the myraids of condemnation to herod, the Pharisees and the saducess by our lord.

jews tend to be wealthy because they also value education, tend to invest and save and also teach a good work ethic. nothing unusual about that. that is part of the culture.

 

[Jesse]

I honestly have to say I am surprised at a LOT on here. I thought I left dogma and legalism behind when I left the CoC.

I guess I have spent so much time, since then, around people who do a deeper job of reading the Bible than of learning traditions, that I have kind of forgotten how many people really don't.

What is CoC?

 

[jasonc]

What is CoC?

church of christ