The Charismatic Church movement

[th1b.taylor]

I only label myself "Christian", but I affiliate with the Pentecostals, I attend a non-denominational church which is heavy in Pentecostal influences. As one who could be "lumped in" with Pentecostals I just wanted to add that I have never spoken in tongues. I know some who do, I know some who don't. The Charismatics and Pentecostals in my own experience are all very much against the teachings of the Word of Faith movement, and so am I. I've seen and heard TOO MUCH emphasis on the almighty dollar bill. They preach a prosperity gospel, I could show you a bunch of videos, entire sermons wrapped around people "naming and claiming" their millionaire inheritance through the Holy Spirit, wealth and prosperity are hallmarks of true ministry, being poor is not the will of God, and so on. Unscriptural nonsense.

With all fairness I will say that some Pentecostals/Charismatics over-emphasize tongues. God in His mercy will work with them on that issue of pride.

Amen Blake,
Being a motivating singer, I have praised God in a lot of different assemblies and the only ones I felt bad in were where the whole house rolled around on the floor babbling and not one interpreting.

 

[Blake]

Amen Blake,
Being a motivating singer, I have praised God in a lot of different assemblies and the only ones I felt bad in were where the whole house rolled around on the floor babbling and not one interpreting.

God is the god of order! My conviction is that these congregations are given over to excess emotionalism and pride. It is not about worship, it's about the appearance of holiness. It's difficult to watch.

But of course I am not against tongues. Within my congregation we have had times when one person would speak in tongues, and another would interpret. Even if there was praise going on prior to this, every mouth would silence and every head would bow. Tears would begin to flow, and a message from God would edify the church. Glory to God.

Now this writhing about, disorderly, "clanging cymbal" worship just feels wrong to me. Maybe it has a place in private devotion, who am I to say, but I personally don't care a whole lot for it in the church. We're not the frozen chosen, sometimes we can't help but get excited, I've screamed, I've clapped, I've stomped my feet, swayed back and forth, cried like a baby, the fire was sealed in my bones and I was weary of trying to contain it. But when these things become the main focus of a church service, when order is forsaken and the experiences of such things become an idol compared to the worship of God, there is a problem.

 

[th1b.taylor]

God is the god of order! My conviction is that these congregations are given over to excess emotionalism and pride. It is not about worship, it's about the appearance of holiness. It's difficult to watch.

But of course I am not against tongues. Within my congregation we have had times when one person would speak in tongues, and another would interpret. Even if there was praise going on prior to this, every mouth would silence and every head would bow. Tears would begin to flow, and a message from God would edify the church. Glory to God.

Now this writhing about, disorderly, "clanging cymbal" worship just feels wrong to me. Maybe it has a place in private devotion, who am I to say, but I personally don't care a whole lot for it in the church. We're not the frozen chosen, sometimes we can't help but get excited, I've screamed, I've clapped, I've stomped my feet, swayed back and forth, cried like a baby, the fire was sealed in my bones and I was weary of trying to contain it. But when these things become the main focus of a church service, when order is forsaken and the experiences of such things become an idol compared to the worship of God, there is a problem.

I've been told by a Deacon that I am about one movement away from be a full blown Pentecostal and my Pastors mom and dad told him that with me there the service is almost a Charismatic Service because when I shout GLORY, others losen control and allow the Soirit to take control.

 

[Blake]

I've been told by a Deacon that I am about one movement away from be a full blown Pentecostal and my Pastors mom and dad told him that with me there the service is almost a Charismatic Service because when I shout GLORY, others losen control and allow the Soirit to take control.

Yes! People quench and resist the Spirit of God because of their fear of man, but when even ONE is willing to open their mouths to truly declare praise, people get some of that fire for themselves! It's infectious, all because of one righteous cry who will allow Him into the midst, not quench and stifle His works. I've seen that myself. One man gets to shouting or stomping and within minutes a cold and thirsty place has become on fire and full of living water. Your post edifies me.

 

[JLB]

 

[Brother Mike]

I only label myself "Christian", but I affiliate with the Pentecostals, I attend a non-denominational church which is heavy in Pentecostal influences. As one who could be "lumped in" with Pentecostals I just wanted to add that I have never spoken in tongues. I know some who do, I know some who don't. The Charismatics and Pentecostals in my own experience are all very much against the teachings of the Word of Faith movement, and so am I. I've seen and heard TOO MUCH emphasis on the almighty dollar bill. They preach a prosperity gospel, I could show you a bunch of videos, entire sermons wrapped around people "naming and claiming" their millionaire inheritance through the Holy Spirit, wealth and prosperity are hallmarks of true ministry, being poor is not the will of God, and so on. Unscriptural nonsense.

With all fairness I will say that some Pentecostals/Charismatics over-emphasize tongues. God in His mercy will work with them on that issue of pride.

Jesus preached the Gospel (Good news) to the poor. Good news is not that you have to stay poor. Even the Jews had enough sense to debate with Jesus about being the Seed of Abraham and the covenant did not included being broke by any means.

Speaking in tongues is not pride, anymore than you breath air. I am surround by it, have been for many years. It's just normal. I don't expect to hear it in Church though, Paul gave specific instructions about tongues and it's use in a church setting.

WOF is not name it and claim a million dollars. If you actually take the time to read Scripture, Mark 11:23. Jesus said whatsoever you say and believe in your heart, and doubt not, you will have what you say.

To believe something with real faith, then you need to have heard it first. Faith comes by hearing. How many folks has God said, "I am going to give you millions!" I suspect Nobody for he Praised Solomon for not asking for wealth or long life, but that He may have wisdom to help God's people. I doubt God has changed any.

The Power to get wealth comes from God to establish his covenant. You believe for what it takes to do what He said do.

I am not sure what you call WOF, but using your same ignorant logic, I would say all Baptist want our american soliders dead. I am thankful I don't share that logic. Know what the Word says, that is WOF.

My Pastor has teen and preteen children and he prays in tongues. Not everyone in the Church knows that but he and I counsel one another and he knows I will never burn him. I know others that, also, pray in tongues that are Baptists. I have never been gifted with that gift but I will condemn none for following God.

There are, actually four groups of believers in the Baptist Church. First there are the Five Point Hyper-Calvinists and next there are the Calvinists. The difference is how radical they are. These, probably, make better than two thirds of the general population. Then there are, as you call them, the Free Will believers and between these three groups, they, likely, compose 99.99% of the Baptist Church Membership. The remaining .01% are Biblicists, like me. We do not exclude any scripture to make a point for our beliefs but rather do our best to reconcile the entirety of scripture to understand the message there.

No major issue on the response, I seldom get out of my bed these days and my 'puter is my connection to the World now. Praying this helps and that God blesses you and yours.

I sort of thought that Calvinsim was more a presbyterian thing, I had no idea. I am supprised they all still call themselves Baptist considering how different each one views the Word. At least they kept the name and stayed together unlike other groups. That is a good thing.
Methodist, Presbyterians took a vote to allow gay ministers. Something Baptist would never have a thing to so with. It has to get pretty dark to even consider such a vote.

Sort of like me asking my congragation if they want to hear me teach the Word, or should we draw a pentegram and practice witchcraft today, lets take a vote.

 

[Blake]

Jesus preached the Gospel (Good news) to the poor. Good news is not that you have to stay poor. Even the Jews had enough sense to debate with Jesus about being the Seed of Abraham and the covenant did not included being broke by any means.

No sir, but, it also didn't suddenly enable richness, or consider material richness and prosperity to be a hallmark of Christianity.

Speaking in tongues is not pride, anymore than you breath air. I am surround by it, have been for many years. It's just normal. I don't expect to hear it in Church though, Paul gave specific instructions about tongues and it's use in a church setting.

You took what I said out of context Mike. No, tongues isn't pride. I'm not sure why you latched onto that last sentence and completely ignored the first. I said,

With all fairness I will say that some Pentecostals/Charismatics over-emphasize tongues. God in His mercy will work with them on that issue of pride.

WOF is not name it and claim a million dollars. If you actually take the time to read Scripture, Mark 11:23. Jesus said whatsoever you say and believe in your heart, and doubt not, you will have what you say.

Every right-thinking Christian knows that to be the truth. But the WOF movement I am accustomed to emphasizes money. I suppose I'll dig out some videos and show you what I'm saying, soon.

To believe something with real faith, then you need to have heard it first. Faith comes by hearing. How many folks has God said, "I am going to give you millions!" I suspect Nobody for he Praised Solomon for not asking for wealth or long life, but that He may have wisdom to help God's people. I doubt God has changed any.

I've seen it myself brother.

The Power to get wealth comes from God to establish his covenant. You believe for what it takes to do what He said do.

Wealthiness is a snare. Jesus said so. Not every wealthy man is ensnared, but it takes a great amount of God-given grace and restraint to be loaded and likewise favored.

I am not sure what you call WOF, but using your same ignorant logic, I would say all Baptist want our american soliders dead. I am thankful I don't share that logic. Know what the Word says, that is WOF.

Listen to it until it sinks in.

Here's an example of WOF indoctrination that I'm speaking of.

I do agree with you on something though! I am ignorant in my logic. God is still working with me. I hope my convictions are pure in His sight.

 

[elijah23]

The Charismatic movement seems to be very popular among the Church right now.Are you among the movement? and how does this movement differ from the Pentecostal Church?Are they similar in ways?

I only believe in one movement, that which teaches that we are to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[Willie T]

That was a very sad video to watch. We, in ALL denominations, sometimes do horrible things to our children.

 

[Malachi]

The remaining .01% are Biblicists, like me. We do not exclude any scripture to make a point for our beliefs but rather do our best to reconcile the entirety of scripture to understand the message there.

This really is the crux of the matter, whether it is Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, or any other group. Christians in general have been encouraged to become non-biblicists.

Had the Pentecostals been true biblicists they would have believed the Holy Spirit through Paul (and Luke) when he said:
1. Not all would speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30)
2. Tongues would cease (1 Cor 13:8)
3. Women were forbidden to speak within the church meetings (1 Cor 14:34)
4. Tongues were the least of the gifts (1 Cor 14:19)
5. Emphasis on tongues was childish (1 Cor 14:20)
6. Tongues were a "sign" for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22)
7. All things were to be done decently and in order (1 Cor 14:40)
8. Tongues were genuine foreign languages spoken supernaturally (Acts 2:1-11)

 

[Kathi]

I only believe in one movement, that which teaches that we are to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[Willie T]

This really is the crux of the matter, whether it is Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, or any other group. Christians in general have been encouraged to become non-biblicists.

Had the Pentecostals been true biblicists they would have believed the Holy Spirit through Paul (and Luke) when he said:
1. Not all would speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:30)
2. Tongues would cease (1 Cor 13:8)
3. Women were forbidden to speak within the church meetings (1 Cor 14:34)
4. Tongues were the least of the gifts (1 Cor 14:19)
5. Emphasis on tongues was childish (1 Cor 14:20)
6. Tongues were a "sign" for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22)
7. All things were to be done decently and in order (1 Cor 14:40)
8. Tongues were genuine foreign languages spoken supernaturally (Acts 2:1-11)

Just taking #2, to show how silly and even dangerous "cherry picking" scripture to try and "prove" a point is, what you and I both are typing right this moment has to be disregarded as foolishness,,,,,,,,,, BECAUSE, the verse you, yourself, chose to use, goes on to say that KNOWLEDGE will go the same way of tongues, and "vanish away."

Well? Is the verse true...... or false? Or, perhaps, does it mean something entirely different from what you want it to?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes, Malachi, few will enter and that is sad.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Just taking #2, to show how silly and even dangerous "cherry picking" scripture to try and "prove" a point is, what you and I both are typing right this moment has to be disregarded as foolishness,,,,,,,,,, BECAUSE, the verse you, yourself, chose to use, goes on to say that KNOWLEDGE will go the same way of tongues, and "vanish away."

Well? Is the verse true...... or false? Or, perhaps, does it mean something entirely different from what you want it to?

If I look at the graduates of our education system, yo8uĺl not hear me argue.

 

[Willie T]

If I look at the graduates of our education system, yo8uĺl not hear me argue.

I have to admit, you might have a point, there. :dunce

 

[Brother Mike]

No sir, but, it also didn't suddenly enable richness, or consider material richness and prosperity to be a hallmark of Christianity.

You took what I said out of context Mike. No, tongues isn't pride. I'm not sure why you latched onto that last sentence and completely ignored the first. I said,



Every right-thinking Christian knows that to be the truth. But the WOF movement I am accustomed to emphasizes money. I suppose I'll dig out some videos and show you what I'm saying, soon.

I've seen it myself brother.

Wealthiness is a snare. Jesus said so. Not every wealthy man is ensnared, but it takes a great amount of God-given grace and restraint to be loaded and likewise favored.

Listen to it until it sinks in.

Here's an example of WOF indoctrination that I'm speaking of.

I do agree with you on something though! I am ignorant in my logic. God is still working with me. I hope my convictions are pure in His sight.

I watched the video. I am not sure what part you did not like. Part of the armor of God is the Sword of the Spirit (Speaking the Word as Jesus did to Satan. It is Written!!!). Faith also comes by hearing, and God told Joshua to mumble the word over and over to himself, to meditate on it day and night that He make HIS OWN WAY PROSPEROUS. What the Lord has already spoken, has enough power to bring to pass what the Lord designed to accomplish.

A couple years ago in 1997 I come to the decision that I must keep God's word in front of me. I did not know what WOF was, but it seemed right.

I wrote down that I lay hands on the sick, and they always recover. I have authority over all demonic power in the name of Jesus. I walk in God's love, I always consider what I am about to say, the Holy Spirit keeps a lock on my lips. I endevor to grow stronger and stronger in the Love of God, for Love Works faith. I love all church denominations, and open myself to be a help where the Lord directs. I am protected, there is no force on earth or hell that can harm me or my family. I am the seed of Abraham, wealth and riches shall be in my house, being a heir to Jesus who has given me all things.

Everything that kid said, I can back it by scripture. Million dollar ideas, I don't think small but think like God. Money can't have a value, it's a tool, otherwise we will fall way short of believing what the Lord can do. 1 dollar or a million, it don't matter and God never has one time gotten sticker shock. Neither did a Pastor get an airplane and someone starved becuase of it. Lot of stupid people out there thinks God runs out of resources if He blesses someone to much. Just dumb.

It's when you use the Word to pull on others for money, or use scriptural principles, twist them to focus on YOU instead of the Kingndom First. That is a problem.

Saying if you give a love gift of 1,000 dollars and the Lord will pay your bills is WRONG. How the heck you know the Lord will do that, He already said he would meet our needs.

I am WOF, a name given to about anyone traditional denominations do not like. We did not come up with the name, so many get labeled with it. Some of us have said, fine, we will be WOF, whatever.

Wealth from God does not just come, it comes to those who have been faithful in little. There are reason folks are broke, and it's not because they are faithful with the money they have.

 

[Kathi]

I now know why I do not attend Church any longer.Their just are very few of the kind of Church that I would like to attend.The Church has become a different institution from 40-50 years ago.

 

[Brother Mike]

I now know why I do not attend Church any longer.Their just are very few of the kind of Church that I would like to attend.The Church has become a different institution from 40-50 years ago.

Heb 10:25 kjva Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice and rudeness. Obadiah.) We were never designed to just be a eye without ears, nose, legs, feet, arms, and the rest of the body. It don't work that way.

 

[Blake]

Brother Mike we see things just a little differently, but at the end of the day it means right next to nothing. I apologize if I did directly insult you as a person, I count you no less of a man of God than I am (take it for what it's worth, I am a sinner), I still love you like a brother and theology which brings division is hardly theology at all. I just know what sits well and what doesn't sit well with me. I try not to judge anything, and when I do find myself judging I am judging by the fruits of the tree.

I think that kid was well-rehearsed. I think there is too much emphasis on money in my own experiences with WOF. But hey, a lot of the Pentecostals I hang out with put too much emphasis on tongues, so I'm not letting this become a division or a this-vs-that sort of shindig. I bow out respectfully. Much love to you in Christ!

 

[Blake]

Heb 10:25 kjva Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice and rudeness. Obadiah.)We were never designed to just be a eye without ears, nose, legs, feet, arms, and the rest of the body. It don't work that way.

I believe there are a scarce few out there in the world who are called to walk with God alone, and I know there are people living in the forests and mountains who walk with Him indeed, in ways that I never will. But I sure do agree with Mike, we need the congregation, we need the sharpening, we need the edification, we need the teaching. I hope and pray you find yourself a church soon! Not one that just tickles your fancy (mine steps on my feet all the time), but one that builds you up in discipleship.