The church before the Bible

[RadicalReformer]

That right is not God approved for the believer. It is inconsistent with the Gospel of Peace and a believer to be active in the military. It is a shame that the Roman Catholic church does not follow the historical and biblical teachings of Christ in this matter.

I don't recall the Gospel telling soldiers to give up their day jobs... When John the Baptist is asked by soldiers "what should we do", he tells them not to extort and take advantage of their positions, not to quit the army. Naturally, the miliatary life is not conducive to being a Christian of the early Church and many were refused entry for this reason. However, once the Church was no longer an outlaw religion, that stance was not feasible any longer and Church and State realized they had a common goal - the protection of society from foreign enemies. I do not see the defense of one's country as counter to the Gospel.

What is fortunate is that you have the choice to serve or not. It is quite easy to take a stance when it really is not an issue for you anyway.

I do not believe that there is any ECF of the 1st or 2nd century that supported active service in the military for the believer.

That is because the legions had to swear allegiance to the diety of the Emperor. I hope you can understand that this is incompatible with Christianity. Once the Emperor did away with that practice (became Christian), the Church Fathers were able to formulate "just war" policy for Christians contemplating the reality of society and the need to protect it from the Vandals and other invaders.

The issue is not "murder" but killing. It is wrong to kill.

Actually, it is wrong to murder. Otherwise you make God the author of sin when the Scriptures note that people are to be stoned (killed) for blasphemy or obstinate behavior towards parents.

Regards

Francesdesales - first, John would not have told them to quit. That is a given. They would not be able to continue to do their "job". Again, military service is incompatible with being a believer.

Secondly - you argument about the ECFs prove the above. However, the ECFs of the 1st and 2nd century spoke out against military service in more ways than just swearing allegiance to the emperor.

thirldy, the "Catholic" church went apostate when it began to follow the state and not Christ. Constantine was hardly a "Christian".

 

[RadicalReformer]

IS the Bible THE TRUTH? Without 'talking around' the issue. A straight answer to this: Is the Bible THE TRUTH as offered by God through His prophets, Son and apostles? yes or no?

The truth is a person - Jesus. Thats what you Bibliolators don't understand

Yes, but you follow the Magesterium...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...military service is incompatible with being a believer.....

Tell that to the Jews we rescued from the death camps. If we listened to you, the Swastika would be flying over half the world now.

...but you follow the Magesterium...

I follow what Christ established, not personal self-given authority. Christ chose men to teach: He did not hand out certificates to everyone making them theologians

 

[RadicalReformer]

...military service is incompatible with being a believer.....

Tell that to the Jews we rescued from the death camps.

Do not misunderstand, it is the role of the state to restrain evil... however, that does not mean that as a believer we are to take part in the actions of the state.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...military service is incompatible with being a believer.....

Tell that to the Jews we rescued from the death camps.

Do not misunderstand, it is the role of the state to restrain evil... however, that does not mean that as a believer we are to take part in the actions of the state.

Thats crazy. How is the state to eradicate evil if no one answers the call to duty?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Thats crazy. How is the state to eradicate evil if no one answers the call to duty?

not the role of the state to eradicate

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Thats crazy. How is the state to eradicate evil if no one answers the call to duty?

not the role of the state to eradicate

Again, I'm sure the Jews we rescued apprecaite the fact that most of us think otherwise. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak. That is a Christian principle. The hallmark of a good nation is that it protects those who cannot protect themselves

 

[RadicalReformer]

...military service is incompatible with being a believer.....

Tell that to the Jews we rescued from the death camps. If we listened to you, the Swastika would be flying over half the world now.

...but you follow the Magesterium...

I follow what Christ established, not personal self-given authority. Christ chose men to teach: He did not hand out certificates to everyone making them theologians

too bad "those men" that you follow do not follow Christ!

are you aware that German women were able to peacefully protest the actions of the Nazis and won the freedom of their Jewish husbands?

The role of the Christian is that of non-resistance. We are not to resist the authorities that God has placed before us. God was still in control when Hitler came to power.

As a believer in Christ I have nothing to fear from the weapons of the evil.

 

[RadicalReformer]

[quote="Catholic Crusader":68038]

Thats crazy. How is the state to eradicate evil if no one answers the call to duty?

not the role of the state to eradicate

Again, I'm sure the Jews we rescued apprecaite the fact that most of us think otherwise. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak. That is a Christian principle. The hallmark of a good nation is that it protects those who cannot protect themselves[/quote:68038]

"Blessed are the meek...."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

"Blessed are the meek...."

Meek does not mean to be a coward and watch your neighbor suffer. I detest cowards who enjoy the freedom that brave soldiers shed their blood to win for them, and then don't even have the guts to protect

Tell me: What would you do if you saw a woman being raped? Just stand there and say Blessed are the meek? How pathetic

 

[Devekut]

I'm sorry Rad,

But I think we have to be willing to say some values are greater than others, and that sometimes these values need to be defended, even if by force if we are being attacked.

Yes, the meek are blessed, but that doesn't mean we should just let innocent people be killed. That, surely, is not a blessed meekness but either a cowardly meekness or a self-righteousness that comes at the price of lives.

I support pacifism where pacifism is capable of accomplishing something. However, sometimes evil takes on physical force and has to be met there.

 

[RadicalReformer]

"Blessed are the meek...."

Meek does not mean to be a coward and watch your neighbor suffer. I detest cowards who enjoy the freedom that brave soldiers shed their blood to win for them, and then don't even have the guts to protect

Tell me: What would you do if you saw a woman being raped? Just stand there and say Blessed are the meek? How pathetic

No... I would do what I am supposed to do, but myself in harms way to protect her. However, that does not mean that I am to use violence to do that.

My freedom was won for me by Christ. I am free regardless of what country I would find myself in.

 

[RadicalReformer]

I'm sorry Rad,

But I think we have to be willing to say some values are greater than others, and that sometimes these values need to be defended, even if by force if we are being attacked.

Yes, the meek are blessed, but that doesn't mean we should just let innocent people be killed. That, surely, is not a blessed meekness but either a cowardly meekness or a self-righteousness that comes at the price of lives.

I support pacifism where pacifism is capable of accomplishing something. However, sometimes evil takes on physical force and has to be met there.

And what weapons are we too use? Hmmm.. no mention of using the sword, the gun, or any other type of physical weapon.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

No... I would do what I am supposed to do, but myself in harms way to protect her. However, that does not mean that I am to use violence to do that.

What are you going to do - hypnotize him?

 

[Scott1]

No... I would do what I am supposed to do, but myself in harms way to protect her. However, that does not mean that I am to use violence to do that.

Well... God bless you for your peaceful nature... I've seldom seem this work in practice, but it's a wonderful ideal to shoot for.

As far as the subject goes, I agree that violence is awful but I also agree with CC that when needed, a Christian can AND MUST use violence as a means of self defense... what Catholics call the "doctrine of legitimate defense":

The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life.
(cf. CCC 2263-2264)

Hope that helps you undertand our position: all life is sacred-------> even YOURS, God will forgive you for defending someone he loves = you.

Your friend in Christ,
S

 

[RadicalReformer]

No... I would do what I am supposed to do, but myself in harms way to protect her. However, that does not mean that I am to use violence to do that.

Well... God bless you for your peaceful nature... I've seldom seem this work in practice, but it's a wonderful ideal to shoot for.

As far as the subject goes, I agree that violence is awful but I also agree with CC that when needed, a Christian can AND MUST use violence as a means of self defense... what Catholics call the "doctrine of legitimate defense":

The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life.
(cf. CCC 2263-2264)

Hope that helps you undertand our position: all life is sacred-------> even YOURS, God will forgive you for defending someone he loves = you.

Your friend in Christ,
S

What Scripture does this come from?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What Scripture does this come from?

THE SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST ESTABLISHES A CHURCH, THEN GIVES THE APOSTLES THE MANDATE TO TEACH, AND THEIR TEACHINGS ARE COMPILED METHODICALLY INTO WHAT IS CALLED A CATECHISM

 

[Scott1]

What Scripture does this come from?

The Christian Scriptures.... any version you'd like....

Genesis where God said his creation was "good" etc. etc..... and a bunch more.... I'm sorry... I assumed you read the Bible... it's loaded with verses that proclaim how much God loves us... he loves us so much he gave us his only son to die for our sins.... sounds to me like he thinks we're special.

 

[RadicalReformer]

No... I would do what I am supposed to do, but myself in harms way to protect her. However, that does not mean that I am to use violence to do that.

What are you going to do - hypnotize him?

Is this the form of charity that you are taught?

Your sarcasm is unbecoming as a Roman Catholic and as a believer.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Your sarcasm is unbecoming as a Roman Catholic and as a believer.

Funny, coming from a guy who said we Catholics are part of a cult in another thread. Don't you have something to do, like run to Canada to avoid military service?