The church before the Bible

[Imagican]

Ok, I read the rest and it is apparent that I must desist from this line of reasoning for if I continue I will be UNABLE to keep from it becoming PERSONAL.

Your statements remind me of 'doublespeak'. You kind of like to 'talk around in circles'. And NOT ONLY in circles, but in deceptive circles, denying the history that the CC ITSELF openly admits. And it is THIS attitude that one exhibits. one that INDICATES that they THINK that they are 'special' or 'above' others, that gives the CC it's NEGATIVE reputation. For the responses that you offer are NO different than that which was offered by the CC of the past. If the power still existed, I'd be 'hangin from a cross right this minute, or "Mike on a spit'', might be the 'fare of the day'.

The proof is there for ANY to SEE that choose to DO SO. That you would offer that which DIFFERS from history, (other than that CREATED by the CC), just goes to show how DEVOTED one must BE to this 'organization' that they MUST IGNORE the truth and accept 'something else' instead.

The Church before the Bible is the SAME Church that exists today. The churches today have LITTLE to DO with that 'original' and everlasting Church. For MUCH has to be 'given up' for one to BE a 'member of the Body'. And those churches that would teach that their OWN understanding rather than that which was offered by Christ and His apostles cannot POSSIBLY BE The Church of Christ. And those churches that would teach ANYTHING other than LOVE of one's brothers and sisters is a 'group' LIVING in darkness. There is NO light in the hearts of those that would do ANYTHING to 'harm' their brothers and sisters.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Capital punishment is inconsistent with the New Covenant.

I agree - but is it murder? Who is responsible if you consider it murder?

In regards to OT wars - read Isaiah 10.

Could you explain that. By the way, I don't have a problem with such things in Scriptures, I was asking a rhetorical question.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Devekut, then you are not a Roman Catholic in agreement with your church. The RCC supports capital punishment, and a "just war" (what an oxymoron).

The Catholic Church does not "support" capital punishment, and every nation has the right to defend themselves.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Using God as a example of the destruction of HIS CREATION is NOT a very legitimate comparison. But I guess if I believed that those that I follow ARE 'vicars of Christ or GOD Himself' at this point THEY could very well be considered to BE the ULTIMATE authority. I choose to leave such judgement of others in the HANDS OF GOD rather than attempt to offer such judgement myself. God 'created' life and has the AUTHORITY to 'take it at will'. But I can't IMAGINE men THINKING that they have SUCH authority.

I see you are not able to resist a jab at the Church, rather than just discussing the issues without making it emotional. As long as you continue such tactics, you can type until you get carpal tunnel syndrome, I won't be responding to any point you might make.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Your statements remind me of 'doublespeak'. You kind of like to 'talk around in circles'. And NOT ONLY in circles, but in deceptive circles, denying the history that the CC ITSELF openly admits. And it is THIS attitude that one exhibits. one that INDICATES that they THINK that they are 'special' or 'above' others, that gives the CC it's NEGATIVE reputation. For the responses that you offer are NO different than that which was offered by the CC of the past. If the power still existed, I'd be 'hangin from a cross right this minute, or "Mike on a spit'', might be the 'fare of the day'.

If people thought it would save your soul, rather than burn in hell, I could see it being expedient...

The proof is there for ANY to SEE that choose to DO SO.

If they read Jack Chick tracts, no doubt. More serious historians have found Protestant propaganda on such matters purely hypocritical and deceptive. Such comments as the Church was responsible for killing millions during the Inquisition, making it more deadly than the Black Plague. Anyone can do the math and figure out that if these numbers were correct, Europe would be practically empty during the Medieval times...

We have already seen your attempt at history. It has utterly failed. Until you post from secular historians something to back up your claim, we can safely presume that you are merely spouting off rhetoric and emotion.

The Church before the Bible is the SAME Church that exists today. The churches today have LITTLE to DO with that 'original' and everlasting Church. For MUCH has to be 'given up' for one to BE a 'member of the Body'. And those churches that would teach that their OWN understanding rather than that which was offered by Christ and His apostles cannot POSSIBLY BE The Church of Christ. And those churches that would teach ANYTHING other than LOVE of one's brothers and sisters is a 'group' LIVING in darkness. There is NO light in the hearts of those that would do ANYTHING to 'harm' their brothers and sisters.

Yea, I'm sure Paul was thinking the same thing when he expelled people who were 'Christians" from the community... Clearly, you have no idea about the burden and responsibility of authority in a community.

Nor do you seem to be familiar with the following:

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things... And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. Acts 5:1-5, 11-13

This is interesting and quite pertinent to the conversation...

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

I don't even KNOW who Jack Chick IS..............

The story that you refer to has to do with EXACTLY what I have offered: it was GOD who punished these who LIED. And if we are to destroy ALL who LIE, who would be LEFT?

I have explained over and over: IF you insist that YOUR 'church' IS the ONE AND ONLY, then I have little that I can discuss WITHOUT bringing YOUR 'church' into the discussion.

And I am MORE than willing to discuss issues involving the Protestant denoms as well. Read my posts and you will CLEARLY SEE that I am NOT adverse to pointing out the 'falacies' instituted and perpetuated in the PROTESTANT 'churches' as well. One CLEAR issue so far as I am concerned is their 'bending to the will of the congregation' instead of 'standing up' for that which IS Holy. There are many others as well. Such as; Teaching that it's basically OK to sin so long as one SAYS that Jesus Loves them. Allowing subversive music into 'their churches', and subversive PEOPLE. Begging for money so that they can live BETTER than the congregation. The list goes on and on.....

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Fran, You are a 'funny guy'. Really!!! And I don't mean this in a 'sarcastic manner'. You ARE a 'funny guy'.

If the power still existed, I'd be 'hangin from a cross right this minute, or "Mike on a spit'', might be the 'fare of the day'.


If people thought it would save your soul, rather than burn in hell, I could see it being expedient...

This IS exactly what I have been refering to. The CC HAS murdered MANY with JUST such a 'mindset'. That THEY were; not only the representatives of God on this planet, but HIS HENCHMEN as well. Able to destroy, at will, ANYTHING that stood in their way of 'teachings' and 'authority'. That THEY were 'able' to DECIDE what is BEST for the 'souls' of the individuals; even to the point of MURDERING them to 'save their souls'.

Since Christ NEVER taught such, NOR did the apostles, I am forced to WONDER exactly WHAT spirit THESE FOLLOW.............. Not ONLY did they NOT TEACH that WE are to PUNISH, JUST the OPPOSITE in FACT: ''Revenge is MINE, saith the Lord''. "Love thine enemies". "Turn the other cheek''. "Do NOT return EVIL for EVIL", "Love thy NEIGHBORS AS THYSELF". ''Blessed are the MEEK", "Blessed are the HUMBLE", "Those that HATE their 'brothers' have NO LIGHT IN THEM"......

You would insist that they ARE The First Church. That their understanding has BEEN since the 'beginning' of Christianity. Yet, SO MUCH of what they 'created' and 'perpetuate' has NOTHING to do with what was offered by Christ and His apostles.

But there IS MUCH that they have in common with THOSE That they CAME FROM. The pagentry, the 'superior' attitude, the symbolisms and statues, the temples and religious heirarchy. All these resemble MUCH of what we have evidence of in the history of the Roman Empire. The Emperor was 'considered' to BE a 'God on earth'. The Pope is considered The 'vicar of Christ'. The Emperor was to BE 'worshiped'. The Pope has his followers bow to him and kiss his feet and hands. The Romans had 'godesses'. The CC has it's goddess Mary. The Romans celibrated Saturnalia, the CC just CHANGED the name and offered the SAME celibration in it's stead. It's REALLY amazing to study their history and see JUST how much of the ROMAN traditions WERE carried over into the CC.

And all the while, attempting to destroy ANY members of the TRUE Church for the sake of instituting their OWN 'church'. DEEMING all who disagreed with THEIR teachings HERETICS or 'blasphemers'. TAKING what they owned and then destroying them and their families. Blaiming the Jews for the death of Christ and persecuting Christ's OWN People.

This is NOT the Church that I have read that was offered by Christ and His apostles. And it's CERTAINLY not The Church before the Bible. A 'church', NO DOUBT. But one of 'man's making' and void of that which was offered in TRUTH. DEVOID of The Spirit of forgiveness and LOVE that is OFFERED by God through His Son.

For to BE even a 'part' of The Church one must START with the TRUTH. Only THEN is one ABLE to have TRUE FAITH. Otherwise, one is doomed to worship of SELF or the 'CREATION' rather than the CREATOR.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

I don't even KNOW who Jack Chick IS..............

Me neither. But I know many Protestants receive their historical instructions, directly or indirectly, from what he has invented.

The story that you refer to has to do with EXACTLY what I have offered: it was GOD who punished these who LIED. And if we are to destroy ALL who LIE, who would be LEFT?

My point is that the Jews of the OT and Christians, BOTH Catholic and Protesant, appeal to God as the one who is commanding them to "clean up the place". Muslims also make the same claim... Note that the Scriptures tell us that they feared the APOSTLES and no one dared join THEM.

I have explained over and over: IF you insist that YOUR 'church' IS the ONE AND ONLY, then I have little that I can discuss WITHOUT bringing YOUR 'church' into the discussion.

yes, but back up your rants, if you will, with some unbiased historical sources... I tire of your emotional outbursts without substantiation.

And I am MORE than willing to discuss issues involving the Protestant denoms as well. Read my posts and you will CLEARLY SEE that I am NOT adverse to pointing out the 'falacies' instituted and perpetuated in the PROTESTANT 'churches' as well. One CLEAR issue so far as I am concerned is their 'bending to the will of the congregation' instead of 'standing up' for that which IS Holy. There are many others as well.

yes, there is a tendencies to acquise with society on moral issues, such as birth control and contraception within Protestant communities. But that is on a different plane than accusing an organization of mass murder...

Mike, I think you need to realize that the Church (no matter how you define that) will not be perfected as long as there are tares in the field. Christ said not to be surprised to see such actions present in the Kingdom on earth. However, Christ DID promise to protect that Church from lies and error.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran, You are a 'funny guy'. Really!!! And I don't mean this in a 'sarcastic manner'. You ARE a 'funny guy'.

;-) I aim to please...

If people thought it would save your soul, rather than burn in hell, I could see it being expedient...

This IS exactly what I have been refering to. The CC HAS murdered MANY with JUST such a 'mindset'. That THEY were; not only the representatives of God on this planet, but HIS HENCHMEN as well. Able to destroy, at will, ANYTHING that stood in their way of 'teachings' and 'authority'. That THEY were 'able' to DECIDE what is BEST for the 'souls' of the individuals; even to the point of MURDERING them to 'save their souls'.

You say "tomato" (long a) and I say "tomato (short a)... You say "murder", I say using the authority given to them by God for the sake of the community. The Jews based their Holy Wars upon this. Catholics sent a few people to the gallows in an effort to save their personal soul AND protect the community...

is there abuses in authority? Yes. Is all authority bad? No. Should particular bishops condemned an individual to death for heresy? We can look back and say "no", but that is being anachronistic.
when was the last person to be "executed by the Church"? Such line of thinking was acceptable in the Medieval era, both state and Church did it if they found it necessary. More recently, such line of thinking is not as accepted, esp. by the Church. Attitudes and times change.

Since Christ NEVER taught such, NOR did the apostles, I am forced to WONDER exactly WHAT spirit THESE FOLLOW.............. Not ONLY did they NOT TEACH that WE are to PUNISH, JUST the OPPOSITE in FACT: ''Revenge is MINE, saith the Lord''.

They believed they were the "hand of God", just as the OT relates over and over that God punished His people through external and historical events, such as the Babylonian and Assyrian conquests.

You would insist that they ARE The First Church. That their understanding has BEEN since the 'beginning' of Christianity. Yet, SO MUCH of what they 'created' and 'perpetuate' has NOTHING to do with what was offered by Christ and His apostles.

Again, I think you need to consider the mindset of the times.

But there IS MUCH that they have in common with THOSE That they CAME FROM. The pagentry, the 'superior' attitude, the symbolisms and statues, the temples and religious heirarchy. All these resemble MUCH of what we have evidence of in the history of the Roman Empire. The Emperor was 'considered' to BE a 'God on earth'. The Pope is considered The 'vicar of Christ'. The Emperor was to BE 'worshiped'. The Pope has his followers bow to him and kiss his feet and hands. The Romans had 'godesses'. The CC has it's goddess Mary. The Romans celibrated Saturnalia, the CC just CHANGED the name and offered the SAME celibration in it's stead. It's REALLY amazing to study their history and see JUST how much of the ROMAN traditions WERE carried over into the CC.

Oh boy. Here we go again with the faulty comparisons...
No one worships the Pope as God.
Mary is not a God.
Christmas is the birth of the Son of God, rather than the sun god. This is inculturation.

None of which changes the historical facts already established...

Christ said their would be tares. None of this destroys the fact that Christ established a Church 2000 years ago..

For to BE even a 'part' of The Church one must START with the TRUTH. Only THEN is one ABLE to have TRUE FAITH. Otherwise, one is doomed to worship of SELF or the 'CREATION' rather than the CREATOR.

I see. The truth according to you... No thanks. Nothing personal, but humans are not ordinarily infallible, so how can we start from you as "truth"? Without realizing it, you are indeed worshiping your own opinions.

Regards

 

[RadicalReformer]

Devekut, then you are not a Roman Catholic in agreement with your church. The RCC supports capital punishment, and a "just war" (what an oxymoron).

The Catholic Church does not "support" capital punishment, and every nation has the right to defend themselves.

Regards

That right is not God approved for the believer. It is inconsistent with the Gospel of Peace and a believer to be active in the military. It is a shame that the Roman Catholic church does not follow the historical and biblical teachings of Christ in this matter.

I do not believe that there is any ECF of the 1st or 2nd century that supported active service in the military for the believer.

The issue is not "murder" but killing. It is wrong to kill.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...I do not believe that there is any ECF of the 1st or 2nd century that supported active service in the military for the believer. ...

Thats because the "military" back then meant the Roman Legions, whose members had to make sacrafices to Caeser. Today, our militarty is free to worship as they please, and we fight wars of liberation, not conquest.

To put it more simply: You are wrong.

 

[Timz]

It is wrong to kill.

If someone was coming at your wife or children, you would get out of the way?

 

[RadicalReformer]

...I do not believe that there is any ECF of the 1st or 2nd century that supported active service in the military for the believer. ...

Thats because the "military" back then meant the Roman Legions, whose members had to make sacrafices to Caeser. Today, our militarty is free to worship as they please, and we fight wars of liberation, not conquest.

To put it more simply: You are wrong.

I am wrong about what? I am wrong that there isn't a 1st or 2nd century ECF that supported active service in the military for the believer?

Freedom of worship is not what prohibited believers from service, rather it was their belief as a Christian. It is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ for a believer to have an active role in the military.

War is war, regardless on how you label it. However, the War on Iraq is in violation of the Roman Catholic teachings of "just war" - the War on Iraq was a pre-emptive strike, in clear violation of the oxymoronic "just war" theory.

 

[Devekut]

I too am against the current war in Iraq (in terms of it having had a just cause, I am not neccessarily for withdrawal now that we're there), as is Pope Benedict XVI and was the Great Pope John Paul II.

 

[francisdesales]

That right is not God approved for the believer. It is inconsistent with the Gospel of Peace and a believer to be active in the military. It is a shame that the Roman Catholic church does not follow the historical and biblical teachings of Christ in this matter.

I don't recall the Gospel telling soldiers to give up their day jobs... When John the Baptist is asked by soldiers "what should we do", he tells them not to extort and take advantage of their positions, not to quit the army. Naturally, the miliatary life is not conducive to being a Christian of the early Church and many were refused entry for this reason. However, once the Church was no longer an outlaw religion, that stance was not feasible any longer and Church and State realized they had a common goal - the protection of society from foreign enemies. I do not see the defense of one's country as counter to the Gospel.

What is fortunate is that you have the choice to serve or not. It is quite easy to take a stance when it really is not an issue for you anyway.

I do not believe that there is any ECF of the 1st or 2nd century that supported active service in the military for the believer.

That is because the legions had to swear allegiance to the diety of the Emperor. I hope you can understand that this is incompatible with Christianity. Once the Emperor did away with that practice (became Christian), the Church Fathers were able to formulate "just war" policy for Christians contemplating the reality of society and the need to protect it from the Vandals and other invaders.

The issue is not "murder" but killing. It is wrong to kill.

Actually, it is wrong to murder. Otherwise you make God the author of sin when the Scriptures note that people are to be stoned (killed) for blasphemy or obstinate behavior towards parents.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

While man is unable to BE a 'sinless creture', that does NOT negate the FACT that we CAN come to a 'perfect understanding'. And this PERFECT understanding IS 'truth'.

While there is MUCH that was needed to be placed in words, ALL of it was done so in order to TEACH ONE PRINCIPLE. When we COME to an understanding of THIS 'prinicple', at this point we BEGIN to understand TRUTH. NOT 'my truth' or 'your truth', but THE Truth.

From what you offered there is ONLY ONE truth and that is that which is offered by 'your church'.

I have a question that I believe will enlighten those that are UNAWARE of JUST how deviant the CC is from 'the truth'. The quesiton:

IS the Bible THE TRUTH? Without 'talking around' the issue. A straight answer to this: Is the Bible THE TRUTH as offered by God through His prophets, Son and apostles? yes or no?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I too am against the current war in Iraq (in terms of it having had a just cause, I am not neccessarily for withdrawal now that we're there), as is Pope Benedict XVI and was the Great Pope John Paul II.

Their opinions were personal, not official. Frankly, they are wrong.

 

[Imagican]

CC,

If you would care to 'debate' this issue, I'm your 'Huckleberry'.

Let me know.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

IS the Bible THE TRUTH? Without 'talking around' the issue. A straight answer to this: Is the Bible THE TRUTH as offered by God through His prophets, Son and apostles? yes or no?

Of course it is. Yes.

The Church said it was...

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

IS the Bible THE TRUTH? Without 'talking around' the issue. A straight answer to this: Is the Bible THE TRUTH as offered by God through His prophets, Son and apostles? yes or no?

The truth is a person - Jesus. Thats what you Bibliolators don't understand