The church before the Bible

[RadicalReformer]

What Scripture does this come from?

THE SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST ESTABLISHES A CHURCH, THEN GIVES THE APOSTLES THE MANDATE TO TEACH, AND THEIR TEACHINGS ARE COMPILED METHODICALLY INTO WHAT IS CALLED A CATECHISM

Sounds like a modern day talmud to me. The more I understand about the Roman Church, the more I see that they are a type of modern day Israel.

 

[RadicalReformer]

What Scripture does this come from?

The Christian Scriptures.... any version you'd like....

Genesis where God said his creation was "good" etc. etc..... and a bunch more.... I'm sorry... I assumed you read the Bible... it's loaded with verses that proclaim how much God loves us... he loves us so much he gave us his only son to die for our sins.... sounds to me like he thinks we're special.

So, in other words what you wrote is not found in Scripture?

Where does God say that we are to use violence against someone else?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What Scripture does this come from?

THE SCRIPTURE WHERE CHRIST ESTABLISHES A CHURCH, THEN GIVES THE APOSTLES THE MANDATE TO TEACH, AND THEIR TEACHINGS ARE COMPILED METHODICALLY INTO WHAT IS CALLED A CATECHISM

Sounds like a modern day talmud to me. The more I understand about the Roman Church, the more I see that they are a type of modern day Israel.

So you have never read any other book, a theology book, or whatever, that explains various Christian teachings?

 

[Scott1]

Be nice gang.... I'm sure we can continue this little chat without this poo-poo.... right?

8-)

 

[RadicalReformer]

...Your sarcasm is unbecoming as a Roman Catholic and as a believer.

Funny, coming from a guy who said we Catholics are part of a cult in another thread. Don't you have something to do, like run to Canada to avoid military service?

The truth while sometimes hurtful (yet never harmful), is not funny.

There is no need to run to Canada - I am not avoiding anything. Rather, I am standing up for the teachings of Christ. That is not something to run away from.

 

[RadicalReformer]

[
So you have never read any other book, a theology book, or whatever, that explains various Christian teachings?

Of course I read other books - however I would not cite them as the authority of what I believe.

 

[Scott1]

So, in other words what you wrote is not found in Scripture?

Sure it is.... I can't believe that your faith is based only upon words you can find in Scripture.... do you go to a church?

Where in the Bible does it say to go to your church specifically (by name/street etc.)?

Where in the Bible does it say that your church can have electricity?

Where in the Bible does it say that your church should have a roof?

See what I'm getting at.... kinda a ridiculous standard.... just because the Bible does not say that "Jesus loves Scott" I still am confident that this is true

Where does God say that we are to use violence against someone else?

God never seemed to mind... you have read the OT, right?

 

[RadicalReformer]

So, in other words what you wrote is not found in Scripture?

Sure it is.... I can't believe that your faith is based only upon words you can find in Scripture.... do you go to a church?

Where in the Bible does it say to go to your church specifically (by name/street etc.)?

Where in the Bible does it say that your church can have electricity?

Where in the Bible does it say that your church should have a roof?

See what I'm getting at.... kinda a ridiculous standard.... just because the Bible does not say that "Jesus loves Scott" I still am confident that this is true

Where does God say that we are to use violence against someone else?

God never seemed to mind... you have read the OT, right?

Do you do everything that God does? Can you do everything that God does?

I asked where does it say that WE are to use violence against others?

Christ told us to assemble. "Wherever two or more are gathered....."

Let me ask you this - how do you know what the Roman Church teaches is correct? What standard do you have to measure their teachings?

 

[Scott1]

I asked where does it say that WE are to use violence against others?

Ok... try to follow:

God gives us a general principle in Scripture: ie John 3:16.... and I interpret that to mean life is important/sacred..... and that because life is sacred, I believe God allows us to protect ourselves against violence.

Sooooooo ..... if you follow, I used Scripture to support my beliefs... fair enough?

Now see how YOU are doing the same thing:

God gives us a general principle in Scripture: ie "Christ told us to assemble. "Wherever two or more are gathered....." .... and you interpret that to mean a building with a roof, electricity, etc even though those things are not actually written in the Bible.

Sooooooo.... if you follow, you used Scripture to support the way you worship in a church.... fair enough?

Let me ask you this - how do you know what the Roman Church teaches is correct? What standard do you have to measure their teachings?

Off topic... start another thread if you'd like or PM me.

 

[Devekut]

Rad,

Are you saying then, that if a criminal was to enter your home and attempt to murder your family you would only stand in the way and let him murder you first?

I am certainly not a war monger, and I recognize our God is one of peace. But I also believe it is Christian to protect one's family from evil.

If complete and uncritical pacifism is truly Christian, then I am thankfull Europe was so far from Christianity in the middle of the 20th Century, otherwise we would be dealing with Nazism rather than just secularity.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Not off topic at all. You opened the door when you wrote:

what Catholics call the "doctrine of legitimate defense":

The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life.
(cf. CCC 2263-2264)

Why should I believe what you wrote? If you are going to site the Catechism of your denomination, I would except that you could answer my questions.

There is a difference - in regards to worship - I do not believe that worship must happen within the walls of a church building. However, since the church is the fulfillment of Israel, the church is a modern-day temple. But since the temple curtain was torn in two - we are free to worship God whereever and whenever.

However, you have yet to provide the Scriptural support for the use of violence against others. If my life is "special" isn't the life of the person attacking me special as well? Does God love him less than me? Therefore, your use of violence against his life violates your argument.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Christianity flourished while it was an illegal religion. Why would it be any different under any other government?

 

[Scott1]

Not off topic at all. You opened the door when you wrote:

Well... that particular teaching applied to the topic being discussed... your question, however, takes the thread off in a new direction... since I'm new here, you'll have to forgive me for not answering on this thread.

However, you have yet to provide the Scriptural support for the use of violence against others.

Ok... you win.

If my life is "special" isn't the life of the person attacking me special as well? Does God love him less than me? Therefore, your use of violence against his life violates your argument.

Yes, the person attacking you is special as well, but has chosen to sin.... I can't imagine YOU believe that some atheist-murderer would get into heaven right next to a Christian .... do you?

 

[Devekut]

Rad,

In the face of a fascist, genocidal ideology taking a continent by force, you would suggest the only permissible thing to do is to sit on our hands as everyone is carted off to death camps?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Rad,

In the face of a fascist, genocidal ideology taking a continent by force, you would suggest the only permissible thing to do is to sit on our hands as everyone is carted off to death camps?

What message did Jonah give to the Nivehivittes (sp?) Do you know what they did to children?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Not off topic at all. You opened the door when you wrote:

Well... that particular teaching applied to the topic being discussed... your question, however, takes the thread off in a new direction... since I'm new here, you'll have to forgive me for not answering on this thread.

However, you have yet to provide the Scriptural support for the use of violence against others.

Ok... you win.
[quote:95bce] If my life is "special" isn't the life of the person attacking me special as well? Does God love him less than me? Therefore, your use of violence against his life violates your argument.

Yes, the person attacking you is special as well, but has chosen to sin.... I can't imagine YOU believe that some atheist-murderer would get into heaven right next to a Christian .... do you?[/quote:95bce]

Why did you change the subject to salvation?

How about we discuss Christians who killed/murdered other Christians.

Yes, I see that you are new here. I also see that you are unwilling to answer the question and are offering a very lame "off-topic" defense, when the current discussion you and I are in is OFF TOPIC to the OP (Opening Post).

I think you just do not want to answer the question because either a) you realize that the Roman Church has set itself up as the sole authority, placing itself above Scripture or b) you do not have an answer.

 

[Scott1]

Why did you change the subject to salvation?

Because it answers your question... you asked why the attacker was not special... and I told you that he is not "as special" as the innocent person... just like at the time of judgement God will NOT view all people the same way.

I think you just do not want to answer the question because either a) you realize that the Roman Church has set itself up as the sole authority, placing itself above Scripture or b) you do not have an answer.

Oy vey.... I think you've forced me enough to satisfy and board staff who might object so here's your answer:

Let me ask you this - how do you know what the Roman Church teaches is correct?

Faith in Christ.

What standard do you have to measure their teachings?

The Holy Spirit.

Any other questions.... this is fun!

 

[Devekut]

What message did Jonah give to the Nivehivittes (sp?) Do you know what they did to children?

A straightforward answer would be best. There is no legitimate moral grounds on which we could, with force, oppose a faction attempting to wipe out an entire race of people (and attrocities beyond that)? You would have us saying "repent" and nothing more? Or, to use my former question, you think the most moral option is to let your innocent family suffer death at the hands of a perverted masichist?

Listen, I'm not saying that if there was a war I would be the first to enroll. Frankly, I'm cowardly and meek myself. I've never been in a fist fight in my life because my nature is not aggressive. I use my words or I walk away.

Yet never would I say there are no legimitate grounds for the use of violence.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Why did you change the subject to salvation?

Because it answers your question... you asked why the attacker was not special... and I told you that he is not "as special" as the innocent person... just like at the time of judgement God will NOT view all people the same way.

The attacker is no less "special" to God, nor is the victim more "special".

We are to rely on God for protection, not the self. The problem with modern day Christianity is that we have become to "self" focused.

I am glad to hear that you have faith in Christ. As do I. I am glad to hear that the Holy Spirit guides you. As He does me.

So, how do you reconcile a faith in Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit - yet my faith and guidance has led me away from the Roman Catholic church for their unscriptural teachings?

 

[francisdesales]

So, how do you reconcile a faith in Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit - yet my faith and guidance has led me away from the Roman Catholic church for their unscriptural teachings?

If I may make a suggestion on why that is?

You experience God - but your experiences are subjectively based. Thus, the basis of "truth" for you is your opinions and individual readings of the Bible. Catholics who experience God base their experiences of Him on an objective basis, a standard outside of themselves, through the teachings of the Church. By submitting our experiences to the teachings of the Church, we have an objective standard, the standard that God has already set down and established.

Thus, while some of what you say is truth, it cannot be complete truth, because man, using himself as the guide, cannot come to the complete truth. He requires an objective guide.

Regards