The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

[handy]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Pain in childbirth was a consequence of Eve being deceived and leading her husband into deception.

Eve didn't disobey in the sense Adam did. Adam sinned, Eve was deceived. But, because Eve was deceived, women are not to teach or have authority over men.

We are still helpmeets though... both in the home and within the Body. A smart husband will certainly utilize his wife's talents and gifts. If the male leaders of the church recognizes that their women are gifted and have talents, then the smart leaders will certainly put them to work in the body. Paul wasn't the least bit shy about using the many women ministers that he knew.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I think women are still help mates today and are created equal and comparable to men. What really matters is the role given to them.

Before the fall, both Adam and Eve were having just one shared role i.e, to have dominion over all of God's creation. However, after the fall, while the original role still stands, men where given an additional role to rule over women. This must not be mistaken as "discrimination" or inequality but must be considered as "roles".

A manager has a specific role to manage the team. A worker working for the manager has a role of working his specific task. Just because the worker reports to Manager, does not automatically mean the worker is considered unequal and low to manager.

Similarly, women has specific roles like "giving birth", "nursing children" and "submitting to husband" etc. And men has some specific roles like taking care of the wife, kids in short, family with love. In the church, the similar roles applies. For example, an older women pastor/elder/teacher is for young women and children. Head covering while praying and prophesying. These are roles and rules associated with the roles. This is in no way making them low or unequal with men. In fact scripture says they dependent on each other as in 1Cor 11:11-12 and it is God's decision that both should depend on each other and live as a family.

The issue of female pastor comes only when they want to ignore God's decision to put their own desire for role given only to men.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Pain in childbirth was a consequence of Eve being deceived and leading her husband into deception.

Eve didn't disobey in the sense Adam did. Adam sinned, Eve was deceived. But, because Eve was deceived, women are not to teach or have authority over men.

We are still helpmeets though... both in the home and within the Body. A smart husband will certainly utilize his wife's talents and gifts. If the male leaders of the church recognizes that their women are gifted and have talents, then the smart leaders will certainly put them to work in the body. Paul wasn't the least bit shy about using the many women ministers that he knew.

LOL...So then why should I listen to your teaching here? : :toofunny

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

LOL...So then why should I listen to your teaching here? : :toofunny

I believe handy is discussing not teaching as this is a forum .

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Pain in childbirth was a consequence of Eve being deceived and leading her husband into deception.

Eve didn't disobey in the sense Adam did. Adam sinned, Eve was deceived. But, because Eve was deceived, women are not to teach or have authority over men.

We are still helpmeets though... both in the home and within the Body. A smart husband will certainly utilize his wife's talents and gifts. If the male leaders of the church recognizes that their women are gifted and have talents, then the smart leaders will certainly put them to work in the body. Paul wasn't the least bit shy about using the many women ministers that he knew.

OK...seriously...was Eve really deceived or did she just say so to make herself look less culpable? After all she did NOT exactly state the WHOLE truth when she said to the serpent in verse 3; ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’
The fact is God TOLD Adam personally about the Tree of Knowledge not being permissable to eat. Who told Eve?

I know Paul had no problem with women ministering. The problem is mostly today in our church.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I believe handy is discussing not teaching as this is a forum .

I couldn't resist. :D

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I think women are still help mates today and are created equal and comparable to men. What really matters is the role given to them.

Before the fall, both Adam and Eve were having just one shared role i.e, to have dominion over all of God's creation. However, after the fall, while the original role still stands, men where given an additional role to rule over women. This must not be mistaken as "discrimination" or inequality but must be considered as "roles".

A manager has a specific role to manage the team. A worker working for the manager has a role of working his specific task. Just because the worker reports to Manager, does not automatically mean the worker is considered unequal and low to manager.

Similarly, women has specific roles like "giving birth", "nursing children" and "submitting to husband" etc. And men has some specific roles like taking care of the wife, kids in short, family with love. In the church, the similar roles applies. For example, an older women pastor/elder/teacher is for young women and children. Head covering while praying and prophesying. These are roles and rules associated with the roles. This is in no way making them low or unequal with men. In fact scripture says they dependent on each other as in 1Cor 11:11-12 and it is God's decision that both should depend on each other and live as a family.

The issue of female pastor comes only when they want to ignore God's decision to put their own desire for role given only to men.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I'm afraid the issue is much more complicated than your simple illustration. There is a certain bias in the english translations of the Bible that have softened, to some degree, over the years. The sad fact is we still have a ways to go fully understand and convey God's will on this subject to the church as a whole.
As to the OP, I see no reason why women should NOT be preachers. Aimee Semple Mcpherson started the Foursquare Church, because of her preaching. She was a great evangelist and God caused great growth in her time. Was she acting contrary to God's will or His Word? I don't care about her personal foibles, I only care about what she did in response to God in her life.

 

[handy]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

LOL...So then why should I listen to your teaching here? : :toofunny

Because if you don't, I'll whap you with a rolling pin!


:p

 

[handy]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

OK...seriously...was Eve really deceived or did she just say so to make herself look less culpable? After all she did NOT exactly state the WHOLE truth when she said to the serpent in verse 3; ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’
The fact is God TOLD Adam personally about the Tree of Knowledge not being permissable to eat. Who told Eve?

I know Paul had no problem with women ministering. The problem is mostly today in our church.

If we believe that all the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the One Who tells us Eve was deceived by none other than Paul:

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:12

Paul was much tougher on Adam... stating that sin came into the world through him. Not Eve, Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men... Romans 5:12

There are clues to Eve's being deceived in Genesis as well...

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit...

Most likely Eve was more susceptible to the serpents deceptions because Adam didn't do that great of a job teaching her the one spiritual truth he was to teach his wife.

 

[Liam Connor]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I thought I might put my thoughts forward on the length of hair and women covering their heads in church.

From my understanding of the issue taken from reading commentries and listening to the views of people a lot wiser then me, i think that Paul is addressing a cultural issue. At the point in history when Paul was writing male prostitutes in that area of the world would have long hair. Men in the church would not want to be mistaken for a prostitute. Similarly, female prostitues would have their hair uncovered to show that they were prostitues. The question of should women cover their heads in church is no longer important and even at the time was not a direct command, Paul said "Judge for yourself, this is what we do" (My paraphrase) He also goes on to say that long hair is given to a woman as a covering. I think that if Paul were writing in todays culture he may have more to say about modesty of clothing and not say anything about covering heads.

Another reason for the covering of hair for women is related to slavery. All slaves would have their hair shaved. Covering of the head for women allows slaves to be part of the congregation without feeling second rate.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

If we believe that all the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the One Who tells us Eve was deceived by none other than Paul:

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:12

Paul was much tougher on Adam... stating that sin came into the world through him. Not Eve, Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men... Romans 5:12

There are clues to Eve's being deceived in Genesis as well...

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit...

Most likely Eve was more susceptible to the serpents deceptions because Adam didn't do that great of a job teaching her the one spiritual truth he was to teach his wife.

OK, but who embelished? Adam or Eve?

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I thought I might put my thoughts forward on the length of hair and women covering their heads in church.

From my understanding of the issue taken from reading commentries and listening to the views of people a lot wiser then me, i think that Paul is addressing a cultural issue. At the point in history when Paul was writing male prostitutes in that area of the world would have long hair. Men in the church would not want to be mistaken for a prostitute. Similarly, female prostitues would have their hair uncovered to show that they were prostitues. The question of should women cover their heads in church is no longer important and even at the time was not a direct command, Paul said "Judge for yourself, this is what we do" (My paraphrase) He also goes on to say that long hair is given to a woman as a covering. I think that if Paul were writing in todays culture he may have more to say about modesty of clothing and not say anything about covering heads.

Another reason for the covering of hair for women is related to slavery. All slaves would have their hair shaved. Covering of the head for women allows slaves to be part of the congregation without feeling second rate.

The context of head covering is ONLY when praying and prophesying - not always - refer 1Cor 11:5,13.

Also, the length of the hair spoken in v15 on the same chapter is a continuation of the previous verse of describing how nature itself provides long hair as a covering.

Of course, today we live in a world where women make their own rules for God and commentators add things not given in scripture in support for those rules.

Does it really matter? Does it need to be controlled or regulated? Absolutely not. The scripture is very clear that these coverings are while "praying" and "prophesying". So, it is up to them and God. If they wish to dishonor themselves as the scripture says and stand before God, it is their decision to do so which only shows the level at which they respect God and His Scripture.

 

[JCitoL]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

the women can testify the true Word of God

1 Corinthians 11:5 "every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered(ie without submissiveness to God) dishonoureth her head:"

but it's not recommended a woman to control over a man in the faith

1 Timothy 2:12 "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

 

[handy]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

OK, but who embelished? Adam or Eve?

I lean towards Adam... it tends to be common with men to add to the commandments and laws. Eve might not have been as susceptible to deception if she fully and accurately understood the commandment.. and it was Adam's job to teach it to her.

Since the Scriptures don't spell it out, it's just conjecture either way... but I still lean towards Adam being the one that embellished the commandment.

Another thing to keep in mind was that their eyes were not opened and they didn't feel shame until after Adam ate of the fruit.

I hear a lot of people blame Eve for bringing sin into the world. The bible doesn't teach this at all.... it was Adam.

 

[reba]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Handy

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I lean towards Adam... it tends to be common with men to add to the commandments and laws. Eve might not have been as susceptible to deception if she fully and accurately understood the commandment.. and it was Adam's job to teach it to her.
Since the Scriptures don't spell it out, it's just conjecture either way... but I still lean towards Adam being the one that embellished the commandment.

Well I see no reason why Adam would. You presume, based on your current understanding or perception of men, that Adam was of that stereotype. That would not be even fair, given he was the first man.
My perception is that Eve embelished because she felt threatened by the serpent and wanted to keep herself as far away from the tempation as possible. She felt herself going in a direction that was contrary to what in her heart was God's will.
That of course couldn't be a knowledge of right or wrong because she hadn't eaten from that tree yet.

I hear a lot of people blame Eve for bringing sin into the world. The bible doesn't teach this at all.... it was Adam.

I don't see this assertion supported in scripture.
Look at 1 Tim 2:14; And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Paul confirms this in 2 Cor 11:3

 

[NinaMMitchell]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived

\

Which means that Adam knowingly did the wrong thing. To me that sounds like a greater sin than being deceived.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Which means that Adam knowingly did the wrong thing. To me that sounds like a greater sin than being deceived.

No that wouldn't have been possible. He only attained knowledge of good and evil, after he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He couldn't KNOWINGLY do something wrong, before he actually knew.

 

[handy]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

It's not even a matter for conjecture, the Bible tells us outright that it was through Adam that sin came into the world.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men... Romans 5:12


Adam knew the commandment perfectly... God gave it directly to him. Eve hadn't even been created yet. The Bible is also quite clear that Adam WAS NOT DECEIVED. He knew what God had told him and he knew that eating the fruit was disobedience to God. That's all he needed to know.

Eve did fall into transgression, but this was because she was deceived. Adam was NOT deceived. He knowingly did what God told Him not to do.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

It's not even a matter for conjecture, the Bible tells us outright that it was through Adam that sin came into the world.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men... Romans 5:12


Adam knew the commandment perfectly... God gave it directly to him. Eve hadn't even been created yet. The Bible is also quite clear that Adam WAS NOT DECEIVED. He knew what God had told him and he knew that eating the fruit was disobedience to God. That's all he needed to know.

Eve did fall into transgression, but this was because she was deceived. Adam was NOT deceived. He knowingly did what God told Him not to do.

Yes but Paul was talking about man as a species and not as a gender here.

I think God addressed the culprits in order. First the serpent, then Eve, then Adam. Gen 3:17 He says to Adam, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

Again if they didn't HAVE the knowledge of good and evil, then HOW did Adam knowingly do wrong? Yes he didn't say anything to his wife, when she offered the fruit, and God called him on that as well as the eating part.