The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Hi Felix,

In response to this comment you made:

"I don't think so. The reference regarding him/her simply means that he/she is a relative and a fellow prisoner with Paul. Even if she is a female, what makes you think that she is an "apostle"?"

My response:

"In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles." Despite the modern mistranslation of her name as masculine "Junias" or "Junius," no commentator prior to the 13th century questioned that this apostle was a woman.1 For example, John Chrysostom, whose writings often express misogyny, wrote of Romans 16:7, "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"2 This unanimity of testimony over a milennium is particularly striking since it remained during a long period of eroding toleration of women's ministries in the medieval church. The reason for the witness is simple: all the ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts commending the oustanding apostles in Romans 16:7 read either "Junia" or "Julia", both feminine forms.

Both Junia and Julia were very common ancient Greek woman's names, whereas the masculine alternatives suggested by modern commentators have no manuscript evidence to support them. "Junius" and "Junianus" suggested by some, are perfectly good Roman man's names. However, they occur in NO ancient manuscript of Romans 16:7" (http://www.godswordtowomen.org/rissjunia.htm)

I'm glad that you corrected your earlier statement that women cannot be deacons. I appreciate that. I'm hoping that you can now also see that women were apostles.

I'd also like to respond to another comment you made:
"role of ministering" is very different from a "Pastoral role". Minister is a broader term that can be simply considered servant of God but the "role" for a Pastor is to shepherd the flock of God. You cannot equate "ministering role" to "pastoral/shepherd role" just by using the word "Minister" which we commonly use today."

My response:
"Regarding deacons being "ministers," Trombley (2003) says the following:
"The word diakonos occurs thirty times and it is usually tanslated "minister." Seven times the King James Version renders it "servant," and three times "deacon." The feminine noun "deaconess" wasn't used until the third centruy, which places it well outside New Testament studies. For the first 250 years, the ministers, men or women were called deacons."

So women were both "ministers" and "apostles" in the early church. There is no question that men who were ministers or apostles were respected as leaders and teachers in the church. Paul is a classic example in that both titles are applied to him. If this is true of the male ministers and apostles (like Paul) it is also true of the women.

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

My final comment on this thread.

I think the correct position for women preaching in the church, is behind the pulpit!

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I've attempted to highlight that women in the Bible functioned in a number of roles that, at times, have been restricted to men. These roles include: minister, teacher, apostle, leader and prophet. Verses, examples, and Greek text have been provided to highlight this.

I've also attempted to demonstrate significant errors in some English (medieval) translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version). Women who are ministers and leaders, for example, in the Greek manuscripts are described as servants or succourers in the English translation. One women who was described as outstanding among the apostles by Paul, had her name changed to a man's.

What I'd like to do now is explain how this could possibly have happened. First of all it's important to understand that during the middle ages, common people did not have access to the Bible. In fact, translating it into common tongues was punishable by death, burning at the stake. During the middle ages, a monk named Gratian was asked to standardize the role of women in "canon law." Canon law was viewed as the direct expression of God's will, as verified by the chief religious leaders of the day (Popes and Councils).

Gratian used two primary sources to define the role of women. The first was Roman law. This is what Roman law had to say about women:

Gender fit into a hierarchical system in which the male was superior, the female inferior and likened to other weak and wayward creatures, such as the non-Roman, the young, and untamed animals, all of whom required the firm hand of Roman male authority. (D'Ambra, 2007, p. 12)
Gratian's other source for defining the role of women in the church was the writings of the "early church fathers." Here are some of the comments he had access to:

St. Augustine,
It is the natural order among people that women serve their husbands and children their parents, because the justice of this lies in (the principle that) the lesser serves the greater…This is the natural justice that the weaker brain serve the stronger. This therefore is the evident justice in the relationships between slaves and their masters, that they who excel in reason, excel in power. (Augustine, as cited in Wijngaards, 2010, emphasis mine)
Tertullian,

I,1,2 God’s judgment on this sex[that is women] lives on in our age; the guilt necessarily lives on as well. You are the Devil’s gateway; you are the unsealer of that tree; you are the first foresaker of the divine law; you are the one who persuaded him whom the Devil was not brave enough to approach; you so lightly crushed the image of God, the man Adam; because of your punishment, that is, death, even the Son of God had to die. And you think to adorn yourself beyond your “tunics of skins� (CSEL 70.59 as cited in Clark Women in the Early Church 39)

Clement of Alexandria,

"Man is stonger, " he wrote, "and purer since he is uncastrated and has a beard. Women are weak, passive, castrated and immature... His beard, then is the badge of a man and shows him unmistakably to be a man. It is older than Eve and is a symbol of the stronger nature. By God's decree, hairiness is one of man's conspicuous qualities, and, at that, is distributed over his whole body. For what is hairy is by nature drier and warmer than what is bare; therefore, the male is hairier and more warm-blooded than the female; the uncastrated, than the castrated; the mautre, than the immature."

Origen,

"It is not proper for a woman to speak in church, however admirable or holy what she says may be, merely because it comes from female lips." (Trombley, 2003)

Gratian, and Christians of his day believed whole-heartedly that the words of these early church fathers were "God-breathed" and inerrant.

From this time forward, the role of women was officially and dramatically denigrated. The "official" position on women became the cultural norm for the church, and as a cultural norm, it began to function like a prejudice, influencing the perceptions of later theologians, translators and commentators.

Sadly, the Protestant Reformation did not rid the church of this malignancy, largely because one of the fathers of the reformation, John Calvin was an avid reader of St. Augustine. Luther, likewise, was an Augustinian monk, influenced by the same traditions handed down from Gratian.

When I read many church policy statements on women, they state--in some cases verbatim--the words originally penned by Gratian in 1140 A.D.. Gratian is not quoted though. Instead, we are told that these views are "bibilical" and we are directed to medieval translations or their derivatives that have been incredibly skewed by the patriarchal bias of their writers.




​

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

My final comment on this thread.

I think the correct position for women preaching in the church, is behind the pulpit!

Amen to that brother!

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

"In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles." Despite the modern mistranslation of her name as masculine "Junias" or "Junius," no commentator prior to the 13th century questioned that this apostle was a woman.1 For example, John Chrysostom, whose writings often express misogyny, wrote of Romans 16:7, "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"2 This unanimity of testimony over a milennium is particularly striking since it remained during a long period of eroding toleration of women's ministries in the medieval church. The reason for the witness is simple: all the ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts commending the oustanding apostles in Romans 16:7 read either "Junia" or "Julia", both feminine forms.

Both Junia and Julia were very common ancient Greek woman's names, whereas the masculine alternatives suggested by modern commentators have no manuscript evidence to support them. "Junius" and "Junianus" suggested by some, are perfectly good Roman man's names. However, they occur in NO ancient manuscript of Romans 16:7" (http://www.godswordtowomen.org/rissjunia.htm)

While referring a woman as apostle still does not prove they can teach or have authority over men inside church. If Junia, is indeed a women, then, I must say that she must be very old, comparing 1 John 1 where John writes to a women Elder referring the church members as her children. I say this because, I hold on to the view firmly that scripture does not contradict anywhere. God is specific about women's role of not ruling over men as we see in Isa 3:12. I don't think Christ wants something different either which Paul confirms through his letters, matching what is said in OT.

"Regarding deacons being "ministers," Trombley (2003) says the following:
"The word diakonos occurs thirty times and it is usually tanslated "minister." Seven times the King James Version renders it "servant," and three times "deacon." The feminine noun "deaconess" wasn't used until the third centruy, which places it well outside New Testament studies. For the first 250 years, the ministers, men or women were called deacons."

It doesn't really matter what word is used because the word "minister", "servant" and/or "deacon" all have the same role of serving not preaching. The word "minister" comes from "the person who ministers to people's needs" - still not speaking about teaching or having authority over men.

So women were both "ministers" and "apostles" in the early church. There is no question that men who were ministers or apostles were respected as leaders and teachers in the church. Paul is a classic example in that both titles are applied to him. If this is true of the male ministers and apostles (like Paul) it is also true of the women.

Women can be ministers and apostles if you consider both words as not titles. Both words can still refer to:

• Women can minister to people's needs.
• Women can be a messenger set apart for Christ.

You are trying to take these words as literal titles to prove your point but even if it is taken that way, they don't automatically prove that women can teach or have authority over men inside the church with the exception of women being very old and the male audience are like her children.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

While referring a woman as apostle still does not prove they can teach or have authority over men inside church. If Junia, is indeed a women, then, I must say that she must be very old, comparing 1 John 1 where John writes to a women Elder referring the church members as her children. I say this because, I hold on to the view firmly that scripture does not contradict anywhere. God is specific about women's role of not ruling over men as we see in Isa 3:12. I don't think Christ wants something different either which Paul confirms through his letters, matching what is said in OT.



It doesn't really matter what word is used because the word "minister", "servant" and/or "deacon" all have the same role of serving not preaching. The word "minister" comes from "the person who ministers to people's needs" - still not speaking about teaching or having authority over men.





Women can be ministers and apostles if you consider both words as not titles. Both words can still refer to:

• Women can minister to people's needs.
• Women can be a messenger set apart for Christ.

You are trying to take these words as literal titles to prove your point but even if it is taken that way, they don't automatically prove that women can teach or have authority over men inside the church with the exception of women being very old and the male audience are like her children.

Hi Felix,

I'm really saying that if these words mean something for men in the church, they should mean the same thing for women. Unfortunately, they were translated differently in the KJV, and I think this is incorrect. I think it portrays the roles of men and women differently in English, when the exact same words are used to describe their roles in Greek.

Phoebe was a prostatis in the church. When this word is used of men, it means leader. If it means this for men, it means this for women. Phoebe was also a diakonos. For men, this is either translated deacon or minister. It should be translated the same for women. When it is not, it creates the impression that men can be leaders, deacons and ministers, but women cannot. This appears to be clear evidence of gender bias in the English translation, and it seems to create an artificial distinction between male and female roles.

Also, in my Greek Bible there is no heading separating Ephesians 5:21 and 22. That is because in the original text, there were no headings. The heading that is added between these verses in my version of the NKJV says, "Wives Submit to Your Husbands." This heading is then followed by the verse, "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."

The NKJV adds two things to the Greek text: the heading, and the verb submit in verse 22. Yes, that's correct, this verb is not repeated in verse 22 in Greek. So, in the English translation we have submit written three times and directed unilaterally at wives.

In the Greek (please feel free to verify this through your own independent study), we have the verb submit used only once, and it is in the context of mutual submission: "submitting to one another in the fear of God." This verse applies to all Christians, men and women, husbands and wives.

We then have a command that husbands are to be like Jesus with their wives. What does this mean? Here is a verse that clearly depicts Christ's ministry to the church:

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death —
even death on a cross! (NIV)

Then, later in Ephesians 5, wives are encouraged to follow this example of service, just as the church was encouraged to follow Jesus' example of service.

This is a picture of the mutual submission discussed in Ephesians 5:21, and it is very clear in the Greek text, when you do not separate Ephesians 5:21 from the rest of the chapter by adding the heading "wives submit to your husbands," and when you do not again repeat the verb submit in verse 22, when it does not in fact exist.

Again, what I'm highlighting is that people can point to verses or headings in the KJV that portray men as rulers and women as servants; and yet, in the New Testament's original language, some words do not exist, others have been changed, and the headings have all been added in after the fact.

I wonder if the Bible you are familiar with called women apostles, ministers, deacons and leaders (as it clearly does in the Greek text) and does not add headings and words emphasizing women's submission, if you would have the same picture of gender roles in the church. Somehow, I think the picture might be different.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I just did a edit on the old post.

Women can be deaconess based on Rom 16:1. However, based on the translation of John 2:5 and John 2:9 as servants, I think a deacon could simply mean a servant of God doing His service in church - not necessarily preaching in church assembly or a pastor.



Deborah was a prophetess and a judge not a ruler. The very reason Israel want a king is because they did not have a ruler. They had only judges. Judging is not necessarily ruling or having authority over men.



In Christ there is no more division. We are not speaking about equality here but roles.



As I said, scripture clearly spell out to be silent in 1Cor 14:34. I believe scripture does not contradict and it is complete and full. If there is another verse that seems to say something, I will carefully consider but in no way add weight-age to one verse over another. Hence, I consider, women can do all activities outside the church assembly as I can find verses for it. However, I cannot find a single verse where women preached in churches to prove 1Cor 14:34 plain interpretation as wrong.

Hi again Felix, and thanks for your thorough and respectful responses.

In this above quote, you say that Deborah was not a ruler. It seems as though you are saying she did not have a position of authority or leadership in Israel. The Bible seems to indicate that she did:

4 Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands. ’” (NIV)

She "held court" and rendered binding decisions when Israelites (male and female) came to her with disputes. In addition to this, she issued a command to Barak from the Lord, and he was expected to obey. She also prophesied.

If a man held court, rendered binding legal decisions, issued commands from the Lord to men and prophesied, would he not be considered a figure of leadership and authority in Israel? I believe he would.

If this information is not persuasive, please consider the following text. I even took this from a Bible translation that I consider to have a patriarchal bias:

"Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons." (Ruth 1:1 KJV)

So, it appears very clear that judges "ruled" in Israel, and that Deborah--a woman--was a judge.

Were you aware of this?

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Whether it is Deborah or Phoebe or Junia, what we understand is one thing but what we had to follow is another thing. Both of these represents a historical account with various degrees - not necessarily guidelines to follow.

However, based on 1Cor 14:34 and 1Tim 2:12, these are clear instructions to follow. You cannot overthrow the instructions given in Bible to point out something based on what someone had done.

All the prophets had erred from Noah to Jonah - this does not mean we had to do what they did, nor what they did is correct.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Whether it is Deborah or Phoebe or Junia, what we understand is one thing but what we had to follow is another thing. Both of these represents a historical account with various degrees - not necessarily guidelines to follow.

However, based on 1Cor 14:34 and 1Tim 2:12, these are clear instructions to follow. You cannot overthrow the instructions given in Bible to point out something based on what someone had done.

All the prophets had erred from Noah to Jonah - this does not mean we had to do what they did, nor what they did is correct.

Ah, but Deborah did not err in being a Judge. Ruth 1:1 clearly indicates that the judges "ruled" Israel. Deborah issued commands, settled disputes and prophesied. She had the Lord's blessing.

Phoebe did not err in being a diakonos and prostatis (deacon/minister/leader). She was commended by the apostle Paul for doing this work.

Likewise, Junia did not err in being an apostle. Once again, she is commended for her work.

Priscilla also is commended by Paul for her work, which included teaching a man "the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:26).

To set aside these clear examples of women as leaders, ministers, deacons, teachers and apostles, one must rely on two verses in letters written by the apostle Paul. I have provided an abundance of evidence to suggest that in one case a key word was grossly mistranslated, beginning in the 3rd century. The word is authentein, and it is found in 1 Tim 2:12. The word is used once in the Bible. In other literature of Paul's day, it commonly meant something sexual and murderous. It did not mean "to have authority." This meaning was assigned to the word beginning in Augustine's time. I've already highlighted that Augustine's views of women were grossly misogynistic. Whatever Paul is saying to Timothy in 1 Tim 2:12 he is not saying women may not have authority over men.

Again, if you look at the context of this letter, Timothy was pastoring in Ephesus. The largest temple to Diana was present there. Some women from this temple would have been temple prostitutes. This would have affected their manner of dress; they would have practiced ritual sex and sacrifice (authentein), and they would have trusted Diana to save them in childbirth. All of these exact issues are discussed, in order, in 1 Timothy chapter 2. Only if you completely ignore this context and mistranslate authentein can you possibly get the notion that women may not have authority over men in the church. Then, you must mistranslate or obscure every reference to women as apostles, teachers, deacons, ministers, rulers and prophets in the Bible. Sadly, over centuries under patriarchal traditions, this has been attempted, particularly in the medieval King James version of the Bible, and in early commentaries written by the likes of Augustine and Jerome.

In the case of the verses in Corinthians, there is evidence to suggest that Paul was attempting to both refer to and correct the influence of rabbinical prejudice against women that was prevalent in his time. Remember, Paul frequently opposed those who attempted to insist that Gentiles follow the oral traditions of a legalistic sect within Judaism. One traditional prayer found in the Talmud for example reads as follows: "Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler the universe who has not created me a woman."

Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church does not agree with this approach. He clearly states the following: “You need to learn, however, that in Christ woman is not different from man, and man is not different from woman. Woman may come from man, but man is born of woman. And both come from God” (1 Corinthians 11:11-12, TIB, emphasis mine).

The context of this verse comes at the end of a debate about creation order. Apparently some in the Corinthian church claimed that the order of creation gave men authority over women. Does Paul agree with this statement? No. In fact, he state's the exact opposite. Woman may come from man, but man comes from woman, and both come from God.

No, Paul does not clearly state that women may not have authority over men. His words in 1 Timothy have nothing to say on the matter. Only that those mixing Diana worship and the gospel (via authentein) should be silent, and so they should. In Corinthians, he does not support male authority, he refutes it.

I'm going to copy/paste a section from a book I wrote earlier on this subject. I think it summarizes my understanding of what the Bible has to say about women's roles in ministry:

"Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit appoints “first apostles, second prophets and third teachers” (1 Corinthians 13:27, NKJV). These are all roles related to leadership, teaching, and proclaiming God’s message to the church and the world. Were these offices held exclusively by men in the days after Pentecost? Certainly not. Thanks to responsible scholarship, we’re now aware that a woman named Junia was counted among the apostles (Romans 16:7, NKJV). The four daughters of Philip had the gift of prophecy (Acts 21:9, NKJV); and Priscilla was an excellent teacher, who was noted for teaching Apollos, a man, “the way of God more accurately” (Acts 18:26, NKJV). All of the first three prominent roles of the church, according to the biblical record, were clearly held by women. Ironically, these are the very three things Gratian’s Decretum says a woman must not do. Tragically, many leaders in the church today still follow the tradition established by Gratian, Roman law and the early church fathers instead of listening to the Bible itself." (Edwards, 2011, pp. 64-65)

When I first came to Christ, women in my denomination were portrayed as somehow more fallen than men, and somehow less redeemed in Christ. Having them as teachers, preachers and leaders was viewed as somehow dangerous, just because they were women. They could teach children, but not men. That doesn't even make sense. Are not children more vulnerable? They could preach, but not within the church assembly. Would preaching in the parking lot make them somehow less prone to error? It took years of study with an open mind to begin to see that the picture I was given of women in the church does not seem to have its origin in the Bible, or in the mind of God. No, I began to see that this picture of inequality was rooted in the prejudiced mindsets of Christian men from the Roman Empire and the middle ages. Unfortunately, these men had great power to influence the laws and traditions of the church, even including the translation and interpretation of God's word.

My prayer now is that these very human errors in the history of the church will be overcome by God's spirit of grace and truth. My hope is that God will free his people, his daughters, to know his impartial love and make it known by every means at their disposal, according to the gifts that he gives them.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

No, Paul does not clearly state that women may not have authority over men.

Then Paul contradicts God in Isa 3:12 if you take your way of explaining things.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Then Paul contradicts God in Isa 3:12 if you take your way of explaining things.

Actually Felix, this example serves to further illustrate my point. In the King Jame's Version of the Bible (and NKJV) this is translated "and women rule over them."

In the Greek Bible (Septuagint), the exact same verse reads, "exacters strip you, and extortioners rule over you."

I daresay it is the King Jame's Version's translation of this and many other verses that seems to contradict God. It was God, after all, who spoke through Deborah, when she was judge over Israel. And contrary to your earlier comment, Ruth 1:1 clearly indicates that the role of judge was to be a ruler.

I may not persuade you with my comments here, and that's alright. I would, however, encourage you to do your own independent study of this topic, with an open mind.

Please feel free to research the role of Gratian's Decretum on gender roles in the church, Augustine's influence on gender roles, problems with sexism in English translations (e.g. the KJV and NKJV). Please feel free to see if women were in fact apostles, ministers, leaders, deacons, teachers in the New Testament. Please look into translations of 1 Timothy chapter 2, especially the Greek word authentein, and its meaning in Paul's time. Look into the role of judges in the Old Testament, Deborah in particular. You may be surprised at what you discover.

It's been very good to interact with you here, and I'm open to continue if you like. God bless you brother.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Isa 3:12 in Septuagint was truly an eye opener. Please understand my position is not against women preaching or pastoring but scriptural integrity.

The cultural context of Paul's letters are not mentioned in any of his letters and it is the same message to two different churches - Corinth and Timothy who was in Ephesus.

The core message of Paul is not about "preaching" itself but the issue of authority. "Not to teach or have authority over men" - is the core message, which is the same as in Genesis where God said man will rule over woman.

If you read carefully what Paul says:
(1Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says.

Paul is not suggesting that he is only saying to Corinth but pointing to what the law says too. While I am not familiar with which law Paul is talking about (either Genesis or some law in Torah), it is ironic to say this statement is only for Corinth yet Paul backs with a law in OT.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Isa 3:12 in Septuagint was truly an eye opener. Please understand my position is not against women preaching or pastoring but scriptural integrity.

The cultural context of Paul's letters are not mentioned in any of his letters and it is the same message to two different churches - Corinth and Timothy who was in Ephesus.

The core message of Paul is not about "preaching" itself but the issue of authority. "Not to teach or have authority over men" - is the core message, which is the same as in Genesis where God said man will rule over woman.

If you read carefully what Paul says:
(1Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says.

Paul is not suggesting that he is only saying to Corinth but pointing to what the law says too. While I am not familiar with which law Paul is talking about (either Genesis or some law in Torah), it is ironic to say this statement is only for Corinth yet Paul backs with a law in OT.

Hi again Felix,

You come across as someone who is indeed primarily concerned with scriptural integrity, and I respect that.

I hope that my comments on the Greek text have demonstrated a similar priority on my part. I also am concerned with the integrity of the Bible. This is one reason I'm greatly concerned when I read the Greek text side-by-side with some English translations. I feel my concern mounting when I read diakonos and prostatis translated differently in the KJV for men and women. I feel it also when I see how authentein is handled in 1 Timothy 2, and when I see how differently Is. 3:12 reads in the Septuagint versus the KJV.

Reading the King James alone, you would have no idea that a woman could be a minister, a deacon or an apostle. And, you would think from Is. 3:12 that being a woman would make you a bad leader, solely on the basis of your gender. On the other hand, in the Greek text, you would be well aware that women functioned in all of these roles, just like their male counterparts, and neither 1 Timothy 2, nor Is. 3:12 would raise any concerns about womanhood specifically. I have similar concerns about 1 Cor 14:34.

When Paul mentions the law in verse 34, it is sometimes assumed that he is referring to the Torah. I believe this is an incorrect assumption. If you search the Torah, women are not prohibited from speaking in assemblies, anywhere.

There are numerous prohibitions, however, in the Talmud. Here is a copy/paste from a site that discusses this at length:

Which Law?

The great German lexicographer, Schleusner, in his Greek-Latin Lexicon, declares the expression “as also saith the law” refers to the Oral Law of the Jews. Here are his words: “The oral laws of the Jews or Jewish traditions . . . in the Old Testament no precept concerning the matter exists,” and he cites Vitringa as showing that it was “forbidden by Jewish traditions for women to speak in the synagogue.”

Other sayings from these traditions include:
“A woman’s voice is prohibited because it is sexually provocative” (Talmud, Berachot 24a).

“Women are sexually seductive, mentally inferior, socially embarrassing, and spiritually separated from the law of Moses; therefore, let them be silent” (summary of Talmudic sayings).

“It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men” (Talmud, Tractate Kiddushin)

“The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness” (Talmud, Berachot Kiddushin)

Please note how similar this language is to what Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14:35: "It is shameful for women to speak in church."

Paul would never have made such a statement such as is quoted in verses 34 and 35 attributing something to Old Testament law that simply did not exist. Not only that but all through his letters he tried to free believers from the bondage of the (Pharisaic) Law, not hold them to it (Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16, 5:1).

By Paul’s response in verse 36, he is saying, “Who do you think you are, setting yourselves up to proclaim something as from God that is not supported by Scripture?”

We are doing Paul a disfavor and discrediting his intelligence by accusing him of originating this statement rather than understanding that he was simply quoting theirs. Paul is not attempting to establish the silencing of women in the New Testament Church.On the contrary, he is chiding the Corinthians for their attempt to keep women silent and thereby prevent them from freely ministering as the men were free to do."

I find this argument persuasive because the oral law did indeed say that woman should be silent, and that it was shameful for them to speak. I believe Paul was not endorsing this, but rather contradicting it. His strong language in verses 36-40 read as a rebuke, and it is true that he had a habit of challenging those who attempted to hold Christians to the oral law.

Also, 1 Corinthians chapter 1 tells us why Paul wrote this letter. He was responding to concerns brought to his attention by "Chloe's people," a woman in the Corinthian church. Verse 11 says,11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. (ESV). Paul then writes his letter to address these concerns. If a group of men in the Corinthian church were attempting to enforce misogynistic sayings from the oral law on women in the church, would Chloe turn to Paul for help? I believe she would; I believe she did.

This understanding of 1 Corinthians 14 is consistent with Paul's other comments in the letter that I have referred to earlier: "For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God" (1 Cor 11:12). It is also consistent with Paul's encouragement of women to pray and prophesy publicly in church. Further, it is consistent with his commendation of Phoebe, Priscilla and Junia in their work as minister, teacher and apostle in the early church. It is also consistent with Deborah's leadership as a judge in Israel in the Old Testament.

Evidence suggests that gender relations were a contentious issue in the Corinthian church. Evidence further suggests that some Jewish members of the church were quoting the oral law and seeking to impose it on women. It seems that "Chole's people" went to Paul for help to address this, and it seems that--as was his habit--Paul did not side with those seeking to bind Christians with oppressive oral traditions.

P.S. Material on the Talmud sayings was taken from this website:
http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.ca/2011/10/talmud-forbids-women-from-speaking-in_6434.html

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

I'd also like to respond briefly to this comment:

"In Genesis where God said man will rule over woman."

I understand this as God explaining to the man and woman the consequences of sin. I think it grieves God that men rule over women, and throughout history they have certainly done so, often very abusively. If I was to paraphrase the verse, according to my understanding, it would read, "now that you have both listened to the serpent, and fallen into sin, the man you desire to be with will seek to rule over you, to dominate you." This is a tragedy.

I do not think this is a statement of God's plan for humanity. No, I think he is describing and predicting the sad outcome of sin. I believe that God's plan is to redeem men and women from this horrific state. I do not want to be an instrument of this curse. I do not want to rule over women. I want to be an agent of God's redemption in Christ. I truly see God lifting Deborah above this curse, so that she could minister to Israel in their time of need. I see him taking the curse upon himself in Christ, so that we can all be free from this oppressive inequality.

I see Jesus rejoicing to reveal himself to Mary, Mary and Joanna, and entrusting them with the message of his triumph over sin, the curse and the grave. I see Paul commending women for exercising their spiritual gifts in the early church, despite the manner in which the oral law of the Talmud tried to silence and shame them. I want to continue to share this message of freedom.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Till now I assumed that you stand for scriptures and I was eager to discuss to know scripture more. However, when you value cultural context more to an extend of even saying Paul had erred in his letter by saying the law he referred from is "not the law" but other oral Jewish traditions is something that is unacceptable by me.The law said by Paul clearly refers to Gen 3:16 that women are to be submissive.

Please do not add or remove or change scripture words from verses to prove your point.

Sorry, I don't want to hear stories that are not in Scriptures.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

Till now I assumed that you stand for scriptures and I was eager to discuss to know scripture more. However, when you value cultural context more to an extend of even saying Paul had erred in his letter by saying the law he referred from is "not the law" but other oral Jewish traditions is something that is unacceptable by me.The law said by Paul clearly refers to Gen 3:16 that women are to be submissive.

Please do not add or remove or change scripture words from verses to prove your point.

Sorry, I don't want to hear stories that are not in Scriptures.

Genesis chapter 3 does not command women to be silent in religious gatherings. It does not say that it is shameful for them to speak. In fact, these commands cannot be found anywhere in the Torah. Please feel free to research this independently. To understand Genesis 3 as if it is saying these things, would be to add meaning to the text that is simply not present.

The word in Greek used for "law" in Corinthians is nomos. This is not a direct reference to the Torah, or the law of God.

The only "law" or "nomos" that contains any prohibition against women speaking in the church (or synagogue) is the Talmud, containing the oral laws of the Jewish religious leaders of Paul and Jesus' day.

Paul consistently opposed those in the church that sought to impose oral law on new believers. This context is not taken from outside the Bible, but from within.

Also, the context that "Chloe's people" went to Paul to ask for help with a dispute comes not from outside the Bible, but from within. It is further from withink the Bible that Paul rebukes those seeking to establish the creation order as a male-dominated heirarchy. Paul's encouragement of women to prophesy and pray (which involves speaking) is also within Scripture--as are his commendations of women who engage in speaking ministeries (teaching and leading).

I think it may be that when you read Genesis, you see a prohibition against women speaking in church. I do not, however, see any such prohibition in the text itself.

I also think that you may see the curse as a command of God that we are to enforce in some way. It seems as though you think we are to ensure that women are submissive to men, that men indeed rule over them.

I do not understand the curse in this way. I do not believe that the church is called by God to enforce male rule over women. I believe that male domination of women is a consequence of sin, something that grieves God, something Jesus died to redeem us from. I believe we are called to be messengers of redemption, not enforcers of the curse.

Remember, Paul tells us in the Epistle to the Romans that we are free from sin and the law. In the Epistle to the Galatians, he tells us we are free from the curse. Should we then seek to enforce the curse of female subjugation? Is it our calling to enforce the law and its curse? No, I do not believe that it is. I believe we are to share a message of freedom from sin, the law and its curse.

I think the oral traditions that oppressed women are evidence of this curse. Paul did not agree with these traditions. Jesus repeatedly rebuked the religious leaders of the day for confusing their oppressive traditions (in the oral law) with the will of God. I think that if religious people are prone to any sin, it is this one. I think we must guard against this temptation.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

The debate about how to understand what Paul is referring to when he mentions the "law" in 1 Corinthians 14 has a very long history. Thomas Aquinas for example, presumed that Paul was referring back to Genesis 3:16.

Here is his reasoning:
"[It is said by way of objection] ‘Subjection and limitation were a result of sin, for to the woman was it said after sin (Gn. 3:16): "Thou shalt be under the man's power"; and Gregory says that, "Where there is no sin, there is no inequality." But woman is naturally of less strength and dignity than man . . . . ’ [But I say] Subjection is twofold. One is servile, by virtue of which a superior makes use of a subject for his own benefit; and this kind of subjection began after sin. There is another kind of subjection which is called economic or civil, whereby the superior makes use of his subjects for their own benefit and good; and this kind of subjection existed even before sin. For good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in man the discretion of reason predominates. Nor is inequality among men excluded by the state of innocence, as we shall prove (96, 3). Summa Theologica I, qu. 92, art. 1, ad 2." (http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/aqui_inf.asp)

Aquinas insists that the subjection of women is only partly a consequence of sin. He says that women must be subject to men because they are inferior. Like Augustine, he believed that this inferiority was present at creation.

It is because women are inferior that Augustine and Aquinas think God wants them subjugated by men. It is due to this inherent inferiority, they would say, that Eve succumbed to the serpent. Her offspring, women, must not be left unsupervised by men, or else they will surely be led astray once again.

(Btw, please do not think that because I am writing these words I agree with them. This type of error, I think, explains much of the confusion regarding Paul's epistle to the Corinthians.)

Does the book of Genesis, however, portray women as inferior to men? Actually, it does not. Aquinas believed that "help-mate" indicated inferiority. As I have highlighed earlier, however, the word used to describe Eve here in Hebrew (ezer) is also used of God in the Old Testament. It does not connote inferiority. Also, men and women were both created in God's image, and appointed as stewards over creation.

The first mention anywhere of female subjugation occurs only after sin enters the world. I agree with Gregory in the above statement made by Aquinas, "where there is no sin, there is no inequality."

The problem is that Augustine, Aquinas and later Calvin's views became embraced by a male-domainted church as orthodox theology. When Pastors go to seminary, particularly if the seminary has a Calvinistic bent, they are taught the Bible through the eyes of Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin etc.. In other words, they are taught that women were created inferior to men. This significantly colours their view of the Bible. They read it through the lenses of someone else's prejudice, a prejudice that then gets passed down from generation to generation as all prejudice's do.

When I read 1 Cor 14:34, I do not agree with Aquinas that the word "law" refers back to Genesis 3:16. I do not believe this because I do not see any evidence in Gensis that women were created inferior, or that subjugation preceded sin. I believe Aquinas was influenced by Augstine. He admits this in his own writings, and Augustine, as I have demonstrated had a very low view of women.

A complete discussion on various interpretations of 1 Corinthians 14 can be found here:

http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/interpretations-applications-1-cor-14_34-35/

Please note that none of this attempts to change the Bible, or disrespect God's word. It is an examination of how the Bible is read or understood. It seems as though preexisting prejudices can and do influence how people understand the Scriptures. I think this happens more often with the epistles because we are reading only one side of a dialogue that was written thousands of years ago in a language that no longer exists. Even Augustine and Aquinas' patriarchal interpretations of Paul occured hundreds or a thousand years after the letters were orinally written. Much had changed in the church during those centuries, not the least of which is that it became an institution of the Roman Empire, a very male-dominated culture.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

(Matt 22:36) "Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?"

(John 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(Heb 8:10) "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

(1Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says.

All these above references for the law are "Nomos" [G3551 νόμος nomos (nom'-os)]. It not only refers Torah but God's law too. If you deny this, you deny scripture.

It is true that Genesis chapter 3 does not say about any religious gatherings and neither does Paul refer to it when referring the law in his statement. Paul refers to "submissiveness" when he refers to law and instructs women to behave the same way in religious gatherings by being silent.

You went too much to even disregard scriptural truth and consider unbiblical storied to prove your point.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

BobE,

(Matt 22:36) "Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?"

(John 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(Heb 8:10) "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

(1Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says.

All these above references for the law are "Nomos" [G3551 νόμος nomos (nom'-os)]. It not only refers Torah but God's law too. If you deny this, you deny scripture.

It is true that Genesis chapter 3 does not say about any religious gatherings and neither does Paul refer to it when referring the law in his statement. Paul refers to "submissiveness" when he refers to law and instructs women to behave the same way in religious gatherings by being silent.

You went too much to even disregard scriptural truth and consider unbiblical storied to prove your point.

Hi Felix,

I'm afraid we may have had a misunderstanding. Nomos can mean God's law, it can mean Torah, but it can also mean Roman law, oral law, or any other law for that matter. My point is that when Paul uses the term nomos, we don't know what "law" he is referring to. If someone assumes he must mean Torah, that assumption may be incorrect. It is one possible interpretation, but other interpretations are equally plausible.

The reason I think he does not mean Torah, is that there is nothing in the Torah that prohibits women from speaking in assemblies that I'm aware of. I'm open to being shown that I've missed something. Also, nothing in the Torah says it is shameful for women to speak. Likewise none of this is said in Genesis 3:16. Because these Old Testament sources do not say anything about it being shameful for women to speak in assemblies, I do not believe this is the nomos Paul is referring to.

I believe he is referring to another law. And, there was another law present in Paul's day that Paul was very familiar with that did say the exact things he was referring to. I quoted from the Talmud to illustrate that the oral law of Paul's day did in fact command women to be silent, and it did in fact say that it was shameful for them to speak.

Hopefully that clarifies my meaning.

If Paul is indeed referring to the oral law, than it is very likely that he is not agreeing with it. Verses 36-40 would then rightly be understood as a rebuke of those seeking to impose oppressive oral traditions on the early church.

Ealier in his first letter to the Corinthians, for example, Paul does not demand complete silence from women. They may both pray and prophecy. One cannot pray or prophesy in the church without speaking. He also does not agree that creation order indicates male superiority. He states that just as woman came from man, man comes from woman, and both come from God. This contextual information, btw, is supplied within the letter itself.

Btw Felix, I recognize that I may be asking you to see the Bible from a perspective you are not familiar with. I recognize that I'm asking a lot, and that this may be a challenge. At the same time, I was encouraged by your openness regarding information about the Septuagint, and Greek texts indicating that women functioned both as deacons and apostles. You also seemed open to the notion that judges were rulers in Israel, although this did not fit with your earlier impression. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my views, and I appreciate you sharing yours.

 

[BobE]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

If anyone is wondering how theologians like Aquinas could miss the possibility that Paul was quoting and then refuting the Talmud or oral law in 1 Corinthians 14, here is an image of the kind of manuscripts translators have to work with. I believe you can see that in these manuscripts (this is a portion of 1 Corinthians btw) that there are no punctuation marks whatsoever. The words do not even have spaces between them. This is not an exception. This is the norm.

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=1+Corinthians+early+fragments&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1W1GGHP_enCA463&biw=1024&bih=523&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=T8U8QM0g8xJMtM:&imgrefurl=http://jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/charism-in-the-new-testament/&docid=b_l8WT3l2qX14M&imgurl=http://jamespedlar.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/greek-nt-fragment-public-domain-via-wikimedia-commons.jpg%253Fw%253D322%2526h%253D453&w=322&h=454&ei=8ovyT-bhDZC_0QHFk7mpBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=788&vpy=120&dur=9203&hovh=267&hovw=189&tx=98&ty=290&sig=104316013772634069499&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=111&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:84