The Cross Is From Paganism

[CherubRam]

Sorry, I assumed Christians would know about Luke 25-37 and Matthew 25:31-46. These are very basic parts of our beliefs.

There is no Luke 25. Yes, parables are a part of our beliefs.

 

[Barbarian]

There is no Luke 25.

There is Luke 10:25-37

Yes, parables are a part of our beliefs.

So you see that Jesus told His followers to emulate a heretic who loved others, instead of a Levite who did not.
Salvation is not a reward for belonging to the right club. It's whether or not you love God and your fellow man.

Matthew 22: 36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

 

[CherubRam]

There is Luke 10:25-37

So you see that Jesus told His followers to emulate a heretic who loved others, instead of a Levite who did not.
Salvation is not a reward for belonging to the right club. It's whether or not you love God and your fellow man.

Matthew 22: 36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

I do not see anything about following the heretic.

 

[Barbarian]

I do not see anything about following the heretic.

Luke 10:36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

So you see that Jesus told His followers to emulate a heretic who loved others, instead of a Levite who did not.

 

[CherubRam]

Luke 10:36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

So you see that Jesus told His followers to emulate a heretic who loved others, instead of a Levite who did not.

The parable was about being a good neighbor, it was about not following heretics.

Matthew 5:47
And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Luke 6:33
And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

 

[Barbarian]

The parable was about being a good neighbor, it was about not following heretics.

Those who think His parable is just "it's good to help your neighbor", miss the entire point of His parable. He used a heretic (a Samaritan) who loved his neighbor, telling us to emulate that one, rather than a religiously-correct Levite who did not show love for his neighbor.

"Who is my neighbor?" Jesus showed him that all people are our neighbors and that those who act out of love for others are His people.

This is why in Matthew, He says that what we do for others in need will determine whether we spend eternity with Him or with the devil and his followers. He says some of the saved won't even understand why He is saving them; these are those who followed the law by nature, as Paul tells us.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I'd pay attention, if I were you.

 

[locust]

Whoops ,what happened i thought this thread was

The Cross Is From Paganism​

 

[follower]

the biblical evidence leans heavily toward the pole being use.

The best evidence I ever saw or heard of is rarely if ever seen in forums. Tradition is extremely difficult to be set free from.
I suggest reading the word studies (or similar) that show directly what words are written in Hebrew , Aramaic and Greek.
Some few of the Bibles or other writings get it right. It is obvious when (IF) you read it because it is so honest, straightforward, without pretense, without twisting, without tradition trampling Scripture, virtually with no tradition known today ; it is so rare.

 

[CherubRam]

Those who think His parable is just "it's good to help your neighbor", miss the entire point of His parable. He used a heretic (a Samaritan) who loved his neighbor, telling us to emulate that one, rather than a religiously-correct Levite who did not show love for his neighbor.

"Who is my neighbor?" Jesus showed him that all people are our neighbors and that those who act out of love for others are His people.

This is why in Matthew, He says that what we do for others in need will determine whether we spend eternity with Him or with the devil and his followers. He says some of the saved won't even understand why He is saving them; these are those who followed the law by nature, as Paul tells us.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I'd pay attention, if I were you.

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

 

[CherubRam]

The Cross as a Talisman

A talisman is an object that someone believes holds magical properties that brings good luck protecting the possessor from evil or harm.



A plenary indulgence removes all punishment due for sins. The Cross on the Catholics death bed is for that purpose.





Yahshua did not die on a "cross", but died upon a torture stake, for that is the meaning of the Greek word stauros, and is used interchangeably by the Bible writers with the Greek word xylon, translated as "tree" or "wood" by the King James Bible.(Acts 5:30)

For Yahshua to become the "accursed" one, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, it was required for him to die upon a "tree" or more literally a "stake", for Deuteronomy 21:22,23 says: " And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree.(Hebrew ‛ets´) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree (Hebrew ‛ets´), but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God."

The apostle Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 21:23, saying that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Greek xylon ):"(Gal 3:13, King James Bible)

Thus, the Hebrew word ‛ets´ corresponds to the Greek word xylon and means a timber, or a "beam". To show that this is the case, at 1 Kings 6:15, in building the temple, it said that Solomon, "from the floor of the house up to the rafters of the ceiling he overlaid (the walls) with timber (Hebrew ‛ets´) inside." Thus, "timber" ("a large piece of wood, usually squared, used in a building, for example, as a beam", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) of cedar was used to overlay the walls, and was upright "timber" of wood and not "cross" forms.

The online interlinear Scripture4all renders xylon as "wood". Another Greek word used for the instrument Yahshua died upon, stauros, is at Matthew 10:38; 16:24; 27:32, 40, 42 and is rendered as "pale"(online interlinear Scripture4all ), which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) That he died upon a "pole" or "stake", is that the apostle Peter said of Yahshua, that "we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:"(Acts 10:39, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon)

The apostle Paul told the Jews in Antioch in Pisidia, that "when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him (Yahshua) down from the tree." (Acts 13:29, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) The apostle Peter wrote: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."(1 Peter 2:24, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) Hence, Yahshua died upon a "tree" or "pale", a "stake", not cross.

The Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom.(Lev 13:56-59) The French Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel (Encyclopedic Universal Dictionary) says: “For a long time we believed that the cross, considered a religious symbol, was specifically for Christians. This is not the case.” The book Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum (1986) states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stau·ros´] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”

The New Strong's Concise Concordance & Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible states that the meaning of "stauros (4716) denotes, primarily , "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."(Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible, pg 75, 1999 edition)

Under the Hebrew word ‛ets´ (6086), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "tree; wood; timber; stick; stalk." It goes on to say that "this word may signify a single "tree," as it does in Gen. 2:9; or a genus of tree, Isa. 41:19. ‛ets´ can mean "wood as a material from which things are constructed, as a raw material to be carved, Exod. 31:5. Large unprocessed pieces of "wood or timber" are also signified by ‛ets´, Hag 1:8. The end product of wood already processed and fashioned into something may be indicated by ‛ets´, Lev 11:32. This word means "stick" or "piece of wood" in Ezek. 37:16...‛ets´ one time means "stalk," Josh. 2:6."(pg 387)

And under the Greek word xylon (3586), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood," is used, with the rendering "tree,"....the tree being the stauros, the upright pale or stake to which Romans nailed those who were thus to be executed, Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; 1 Pet 2:24."(pg 387-88)

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

 

[Barbarian]

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Now you're wising up.

 

[Barbarian]

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

Not sure why it's so important for you to revise the cruifixion. That's what Romans did with rebels. Always did.

A Tomb in Jerusalem Reveals the History of Crucifixion and Roman Crucifixion Methods​

The tomb of Yehohanan contains first physical evidence of crucifixion in antiquity
Examination of Yehohanan’s bones showed one of the many Roman crucifixion methods. Both of his feet had been nailed together to the cross with a wooden plaque while his legs were bent to one side. His arm bones revealed scratches where the nails had passed between. Both legs were badly fractured, most likely from a crushing blow meant to end his suffering and bring about a faster death. Yehohanan was probably a political dissident against Roman oppression. In death his bones have helped fill in gaps in the history of crucifixion.

A Tomb in Jerusalem Reveals the History of Crucifixion and Roman Crucifixion Methods

The history of crucifixion was brought to life when the heel bones of a young man were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

 

[locust]

in scripture there are things that are not said yet we know it had to happen .Yahshua was hung up he also had to be taken down . Those in Christendom insist that he died on a cross .getting a dead body down and leaving the cross standing hit me as a ridiculous Endeavor. IF a cross was used it would of been stood up with Yahshua nailed to it .it was stood up it would also be laid down to then remove the bodies .

 

[Free]

The Cross as a Talisman

A talisman is an object that someone believes holds magical properties that brings good luck protecting the possessor from evil or harm.

And what does the shape have to do with anything?

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

A tree can hardly be called "an upright pale or stake," given that they have numerous main branches which then have branches, etc. They're more cross-like than stake-like, but that isn't the point anyway. A cross is made of wood or timber, which come from trees, so those all fit.

And, yet again, it is entirely irrelevant whether it was a cross or stake, although the biblical evidence suggests a cross. The whole point is that Jesus was crucified in our place to make atonement for our sins.

 

[CherubRam]

Not sure why it's so important for you to revise the cruifixion. That's what Romans did with rebels. Always did.

A Tomb in Jerusalem Reveals the History of Crucifixion and Roman Crucifixion Methods​

The tomb of Yehohanan contains first physical evidence of crucifixion in antiquity
Examination of Yehohanan’s bones showed one of the many Roman crucifixion methods. Both of his feet had been nailed together to the cross with a wooden plaque while his legs were bent to one side. His arm bones revealed scratches where the nails had passed between. Both legs were badly fractured, most likely from a crushing blow meant to end his suffering and bring about a faster death. Yehohanan was probably a political dissident against Roman oppression. In death his bones have helped fill in gaps in the history of crucifixion.

A Tomb in Jerusalem Reveals the History of Crucifixion and Roman Crucifixion Methods

The history of crucifixion was brought to life when the heel bones of a young man were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

There is no mention of crucifixion on a cross in the Old Testament. There is however the mention of a snake on a pole.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Etymology of stauros​

The word stauros comes from the verb ἵστημι (histēmi: "straighten up", "stand"), which in turn comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *steh2-u- "pole",<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauros#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> related to the root *steh2- "to stand, to set"

Stauros is a upright stake.​

 

[Barbarian]

There is no mention of crucifixion on a cross in the Old Testament.

Not surprising. Hebrews didn't crucify people. Romans did.

And as you see, we have physical proof that the Romans crucified people at that time and place.

 

[locust]

There is no mention of crucifixion on a cross in the Old Testament. There is however the mention of a snake on a pole.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Etymology of stauros​

The word stauros comes from the verb ἵστημι (histēmi: "straighten up", "stand"), which in turn comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *steh2-u- "pole",<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauros#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> related to the root *steh2- "to stand, to set"

Stauros is a upright stake.​

yes there was a pole with a serpent on it. and what happened to it ? and why ?

 

[locust]

Not surprising. Hebrews didn't crucify people. Romans did.

And as you see, we have physical proof that the Romans crucified people at that time and place.

Ezra 6:11

 

[CherubRam]

yes there was a pole with a serpent on it. and what happened to it ? and why ?

It was removed because people were paying too much attention to it.

 

[CherubRam]

Not surprising. Hebrews didn't crucify people. Romans did.

And as you see, we have physical proof that the Romans crucified people at that time and place.

The Romans hanged people by both ways. The Messiah to come was to be hanged on a pole.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”