The Cross Is From Paganism

[Free]

we have all been told Jesus died on a cross. its so ingrained into us that we take it for granted that's the way it happen .
yes, thousands of people were crucified ,they did die on a cross'. it would be Foolish to deny it. That being the case does not mean that that's the way that Jesus was executed.

Have you heard of the Alexamenos Graffito? It is likely the first depiction of Jesus on the cross, from the late first to early second century, meant to make fun of Christians for worshiping a crucified God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

There simply is no reason to not believe that Jesus died on a cross.

Yeah it was similar but not perfectly the same.

So, you believe what, exactly? That he died on a "torture stake" or something like that?

 

[locust]

i'd think a cross would be far more torturous as the time for a person to die would be much longer. most likely days longer. if given the choice , kill me quick ,the thought of hanging for days is more than I want to contemplate.
what Jesus endured is beyond me . its sickening to picture the things done to him. how could any one be so willing to do the things the Romans did? and then to have Jesus say forgive them for what they are doing .

 

[locust]

the thing is ,there is missing narrative in scripture so we tend to Imagine what happen . to then use the forensic information, the clues given , it points more to a pole, no cross bar.
have you ever contemplated the chore of getting a dead body down ? here again there is no narrative as to how it was done .
I have been up ladders, to be pulling nails embedded in wood where i'd have to reach out and use the necessary tools and the leverage , nope sorry .there has to be a better way. thoughts ?

 

[locust]

Have you heard of the Alexamenos Graffito? It is likely the first depiction of Jesus on the cross, from the late first to early second century, meant to make fun of Christians for worshiping a crucified God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

There simply is no reason to not believe that Jesus died on a cross.


So, you believe what, exactly? That he died on a "torture stake" or something like that?

I do know of this .carved from marble, that being the case i'm sure such thing happend

 

[Free]

the thing is ,there is missing narrative in scripture so we tend to Imagine what happen . to then use the forensic information, the clues given , it points more to a pole, no cross bar.

The clues point to a cross member:

Mat 27:37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” (ESV)

Joh 19:19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”
Joh 19:20 Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. (ESV)

That sounds like a fairly big sign, put over Jesus's head, not his hands. Then we also have these:

Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (ESV)

Note that it's plural, "nails," that made the marks in his hands.

Joh 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.” (ESV)

That suggests crucifixion on a cross member.

No, there is nothing conclusive, but the clues suggest crucifixion on a cross.

have you ever contemplated the chore of getting a dead body down ? here again there is no narrative as to how it was done .
I have been up ladders, to be pulling nails embedded in wood where i'd have to reach out and use the necessary tools and the leverage , nope sorry .there has to be a better way. thoughts ?

I have, but I have no idea how they did it, although it would be easier with a cross member on which the body could be lowered to the ground and then the nails from the hands removed.

 

[JLB]

And Yahshua is Yahwah's special adopted son.

Could you please share the scriptures that teach us, that Jesus was God’s “special adopted son”?



JLB

 

[locust]

The clues point to a cross member:

Mat 27:37 And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” (ESV)

Joh 19:19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.”
Joh 19:20 Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. (ESV)

That sounds like a fairly big sign, put over Jesus's head, not his hands. Then we also have these:

Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (ESV)

Note that it's plural, "nails," that made the marks in his hands.

Joh 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.” (ESV)

That suggests crucifixion on a cross member.

No, there is nothing conclusive, but the clues suggest crucifixion on a cross.


I have, but I have no idea how they did it, although it would be easier with a cross member on which the body could be lowered to the ground and then the nails from the hands removed.

I assure you I put deep trust in scripture . what I don't trust is the design religion takes to influence people to believe different things . in time words and meanings change . so when some bibles say cross it may of been changed by a translator or someone with a personal agenda. ya it happens.

as for getting a body down its far easier than you may realize. I know it did to me. poles and cross' have one thing in common. they were stood up they could be laid down. that does not get the nail out ,thats a different problem.

 

[Free]

I assure you I put deep trust in scripture . what I don't trust is the design religion takes to influence people to believe different things . in time words and meanings change . so when some bibles say cross it may of been changed by a translator or someone with a personal agenda. ya it happens.

as for getting a body down its far easier than you may realize. I know it did to me. poles and cross' have one thing in common. they were stood up they could be laid down. that does not get the nail out ,thats a different problem.

Okay, but none of that addresses the point that if the Bible points to anything, it points to Jesus being crucified on a cross. We also know that historically, the Romans also used crosses, which supports Jesus dying on a cross. In the end, does it even matter whether it was a cross or a pole, or is the whole point that he was crucified and shed his blood for our sins?

 

[locust]

Okay, but none of that addresses the point that if the Bible points to anything, it points to Jesus being crucified on a cross. We also know that historically, the Romans also used crosses, which supports Jesus dying on a cross. In the end, does it even matter whether it was a cross or a pole, or is the whole point that he was crucified and shed his blood for our sins?

to answer there is a need to understand what happens when the full weight of the body is hanging by the hands for several hours. Death, usually after 6 hours--4 days, was due to multifactorial pathology: after-effects of compulsory scourging and maiming, haemorrhage and dehydration causing hypovolaemic shock and pain, but the most important factor was progressive asphyxia caused by impairment of respiratory movement. Resultant anoxaemia exaggerated hypovolaemic shock. Death was probably commonly precipitated by cardiac arrest, caused by vasovagal reflexes, initiated inter alia by severe anoxaemia, severe pain, body blows and breaking of the large bones. The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim.

that does not happen when hung on a cross

 

[JLB]

to answer there is a need to understand what happens when the full weight of the body is hanging by the hands for several hours. Death, usually after 6 hours--4 days, was due to multifactorial pathology: after-effects of compulsory scourging and maiming, haemorrhage and dehydration causing hypovolaemic shock and pain, but the most important factor was progressive asphyxia caused by impairment of respiratory movement. Resultant anoxaemia exaggerated hypovolaemic shock. Death was probably commonly precipitated by cardiac arrest, caused by vasovagal reflexes, initiated inter alia by severe anoxaemia, severe pain, body blows and breaking of the large bones. The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim.

that does not happen when hung on a cross

All very interesting but doesn’t address the scripture.


The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
John 20:25

The Holy Spirit plainly indicates a plurality of nail print (piercings) in His hands which is indicative of His hands being pierced in an outstretched position.

 

[locust]

All very interesting but doesn’t address the scripture.


The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
John 20:25

The Holy Spirit plainly indicates a plurality of nail print (piercings) in His hands which is indicative of His hands being pierced in an outstretched position.

ok that was 3 days after his death. I have reasons to believe 4 nails were used . some will say 3 others 2 . of the nails found embedded in Bone , the nails seamed to be to short to go through much more than one hand or one foot at a time.
lay a man onto a pole pull the hands to ward the top . right hand nailed to the right side left to the left side of the pole ,same with the feet. stand it up ,come back in a few hours to see if they are dead.
its still beyond me how any one could do that to any one.

 

[JLB]

ok that was 3 days after his death. I have reasons to believe 4 nails were used . some will say 3 others 2 . of the nails found embedded in Bone , the nails seamed to be to short to go through much more than one hand or one foot at a time.
lay a man onto a pole pull the hands to ward the top . right hand nailed to the right side left to the left side of the pole ,same with the feet. stand it up ,come back in a few hours to see if they are dead.
its still beyond me how any one could do that to any one.

There is no right side, left side of an upright stake.

Nails large enough to hold His body weight would have split the side of the stake.

 

[locust]

There is no right side, left side of an upright stake.

Nails large enough to hold His body weight would have split the side of the stake.

there would be if a persons back was up against the wood.

ah, well i'll let you drive 2 -20 penny nails in and then see if you can hang from them

 

[locust]

The Bible narrative does not tell us what the size of the pole was. It does not tell us how long the pole was .it does not tell us how deep the hole was that the pole was set into. It does not tell us how many men were used to stand it up.

but we do know it all happened

 

[Free]

to answer there is a need to understand what happens when the full weight of the body is hanging by the hands for several hours. Death, usually after 6 hours--4 days, was due to multifactorial pathology: after-effects of compulsory scourging and maiming, haemorrhage and dehydration causing hypovolaemic shock and pain, but the most important factor was progressive asphyxia caused by impairment of respiratory movement. Resultant anoxaemia exaggerated hypovolaemic shock. Death was probably commonly precipitated by cardiac arrest, caused by vasovagal reflexes, initiated inter alia by severe anoxaemia, severe pain, body blows and breaking of the large bones. The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim.

As was pointed out, you’re still avoiding the points I made.

that does not happen when hung on a cross

And you know that how?

 

[locust]

As was pointed out, you’re still avoiding the points I made.


And you know that how?

did I not say 4 nails were used ?

 

[locust]

IMHO 4 nails were used ,one in each hand one in each foot

 

[JLB]

there would be if a persons back was up against the wood.

ah, well i'll let you drive 2 -20 penny nails in and then see if you can hang from them

Thanks for making my point.

An upright stake is not wide enough to nail two hands and feet side by side.

The nails that large would split the edge of the stake off.

Both of Jesus hands had individual nail prints in them according to scripture.


If He was crucified on an upright stake He would have had one nail through both hands.

 

[JLB]

IMHO 4 nails were used ,one in each hand one in each foot

Not enough room for that on an upright stake.

 

[locust]

Not enough room for that on an upright stake.

a 4x4 post would work in a pinch and it would be strong enough to carry a man.