The Dead, the Prophets, the Saints & .......

[whirlwind]

The plagues are the wrath of God and they are contained in the seven vials which the seven angels have. They are told to "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." [16:1] This is after we see "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark" and they are standing "on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." [15:2]

I point this out as I see the plagues/wrath happening before the "holy city comes down from heaven." I don't understand the time frame you are seeing. To me, where it is written [15:1] that "the seven angels having the seven last plagues" is different than [17:1] where "the seven angels which had the seven vials." The holy city comes down after the millennium [21:2] so in [21:9] isn't the angel we see simply one of the angels that "had" the plagues...he doesn't still have it.

My previous understanding was that these were SEPARATE events, but Rev 21:9 puts them together!

Revelation 21:9
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. KJV

At first Rev 21:9 reads as though this 7 angel work is already done, BUT take another look at ...

Rev 20:7-10

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Rev 20:7 says when the 1000 years are expired, I inferred this to be within the 1000 years. I will study this more tomorrow, for now the question is - how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?

Another question...are we correctly understanding the term 'city'...does that mean being in the presence of Jesus Christ? Are we trying to make literal something which is (at this point) symbolic?

A very worthy discussion...gotta go..more tomorrow...R

• "how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?"

I see this as being two different cities. The camp of saints, and the beloved city, is on earth where the saints rule with a rod of iron. The holy city is when God Himself "is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." [Revelation 21:3]

The great white throne judgment [20:11] happens after Satan is permanently disposed of and is, I believe, when the Holy City comes down.


If I'm correct in this understanding the questions I have are....Why are the saints camped outside the beloved city on earth? Who are the inhabitants of the beloved city? Who is the bride in the holy city and why are they in heaven until the end of the millennium when those of the beloved city are on earth?

I see the cities are groups of people, not a location. For instance, the great city Babylon. Of course, Babylon was a site in Iraq but it is actually world wide. The residents are those that follow Satan. Carrying that forward....the other cities, beloved and holy, are those that follow God.

 

[Benoni]

Mt Zion is the place where King David lived; it speaks of the place where the King (Jesus) lives and his overcomer. The New Jersalem is a type of where God's people dwell; but it is not the trhone room at Zion.

The plagues are the wrath of God and they are contained in the seven vials which the seven angels have. They are told to "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." [16:1] This is after we see "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark" and they are standing "on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." [15:2]

I point this out as I see the plagues/wrath happening before the "holy city comes down from heaven." I don't understand the time frame you are seeing. To me, where it is written [15:1] that "the seven angels having the seven last plagues" is different than [17:1] where "the seven angels which had the seven vials." The holy city comes down after the millennium [21:2] so in [21:9] isn't the angel we see simply one of the angels that "had" the plagues...he doesn't still have it.

My previous understanding was that these were SEPARATE events, but Rev 21:9 puts them together!

Revelation 21:9
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. KJV

At first Rev 21:9 reads as though this 7 angel work is already done, BUT take another look at ...

Rev 20:7-10

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Rev 20:7 says when the 1000 years are expired, I inferred this to be within the 1000 years. I will study this more tomorrow, for now the question is - how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?

Another question...are we correctly understanding the term 'city'...does that mean being in the presence of Jesus Christ? Are we trying to make literal something which is (at this point) symbolic?

A very worthy discussion...gotta go..more tomorrow...R

• "how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?"

I see this as being two different cities. The camp of saints, and the beloved city, is on earth where the saints rule with a rod of iron. The holy city is when God Himself "is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." [Revelation 21:3]

The great white throne judgment [20:11] happens after Satan is permanently disposed of and is, I believe, when the Holy City comes down.


If I'm correct in this understanding the questions I have are....Why are the saints camped outside the beloved city on earth? Who are the inhabitants of the beloved city? Who is the bride in the holy city and why are they in heaven until the end of the millennium when those of the beloved city are on earth?

I see the cities are groups of people, not a location. For instance, the great city Babylon. Of course, Babylon was a site in Iraq but it is actually world wide. The residents are those that follow Satan. Carrying that forward....the other cities, beloved and holy, are those that follow God.

 

[Ret]

• "how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?"

I see this as being two different cities. The camp of saints, and the beloved city, is on earth where the saints rule with a rod of iron. The holy city is when God Himself "is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." [Revelation 21:3]

Ok...we will consider it being 'two cities', though there is a third element - the 'nations', Gog and Magog (also in Eze 38 & 39). Judah (the Lion of the tribe of Judah) is the 'beloved city' and rules with a rod of iron. Then there is the 'camp of the saints' who 'dwell in heaven', though physically they exist in the flesh still on this earth. Satan deceives the nations and rallys around the 'beloved city' and the 'camp of the saints' - God destorys the nations with fire and Satan and is thrown into the lake of fire.

Judah the 'beloved city' - rules with a rod of iron...


Jeremiah 17:1
17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron,
and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart,
and upon the horns of your altars; KJV (law - not grace)

Revelation 2:27-28
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall
they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star (the reward). KJV

God has given LAW to prepare the way for grace. Law is holy, just, and good.
The 'beloved city' that 'rules with a rod of iron' is REWARDED - given the 'morning star'.

The HOLY CITY - 'camp of the saints' have a different REWARD

Revelation 22:12
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to
every man according to what he has done (works done IN CHRIST). NASU

 

[whirlwind]

• "how is Satan and his gang able to compass the 'beloved city' if the city has not already come down from heaven?"

I see this as being two different cities. The camp of saints, and the beloved city, is on earth where the saints rule with a rod of iron. The holy city is when God Himself "is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." [Revelation 21:3]

Ok...we will consider it being 'two cities', though there is a third element - the 'nations', Gog and Magog (also in Eze 38 & 39). Judah (the Lion of the tribe of Judah) is the 'beloved city' and rules with a rod of iron. Then there is the 'camp of the saints' who 'dwell in heaven', though physically they exist in the flesh still on this earth. Satan deceives the nations and rallys around the 'beloved city' and the 'camp of the saints' - God destorys the nations with fire and Satan and is thrown into the lake of fire.

Judah the 'beloved city' - rules with a rod of iron...


Jeremiah 17:1
17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron,
and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart,
and upon the horns of your altars; KJV (law - not grace)

Revelation 2:27-28
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall
they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star (the reward). KJV

I see the above verse being about the man child ruling with a rod of iron, not Judah. Why do you believe it is Judah? Or, are you saying this is a spiritual Judah?

God has given LAW to prepare the way for grace. Law is holy, just, and good.
The 'beloved city' that 'rules with a rod of iron' is REWARDED - given the 'morning star'.

The HOLY CITY - 'camp of the saints' have a different REWARD

Revelation 22:12
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to
every man according to what he has done (works done IN CHRIST). NASU

I am seeing something different here too Ret. Before that verse John was "in the spirit" seeing into the future and revealing what will be. In [22:8] he was back in his time. So, in [22:12] when he wrote...."Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be," it is telling us about when Jesus comes to judge and make war.

I don't see it as when He brings reward to His saints but judgment on all. Some rewarded and some not. I see it as the same event written of.....

• * Revelation 19:15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What am I not understanding?

 

[Ret]

Judah the 'beloved city' - rules with a rod of iron...


Jeremiah 17:1
17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron,
and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart,
and upon the horns of your altars; KJV (law - not grace)

Revelation 2:27-28
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall
they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star (the reward). KJV

I see the above verse being about the man child ruling with a rod of iron, not Judah. Why do you believe it is Judah? Or, are you saying this is a spiritual Judah?

In the new Jerusalem the song is about 'MOSES' (law) and the LAMB (gospel) Rev 15:3. I've been puzzled for years...why the 'song of Moses AND the Lamb'. I could see - the Lamb...yes, but why Moses? Ahhhh, now I know - they are the two different aspects of God, as seen in Jesus Christ.

In Rev 5, who is able to 'open the book'..>..the LION of the tribe of Judah, but it ends with the 'lamb as it had been slain'. There are two qualities, two callings, two distinct functions here. This became even more clear when you were given to see that the 'beloved city' and 'the camp of the saints' are two different cities...so, yes WW and thank the Lord for what He is giving to you to share with us, even if I/we don't see the ending alike, it is still refreshing!

God has given LAW to prepare the way for grace. Law is holy, just, and good.

The 'beloved city' that 'rules with a rod of iron' is REWARDED - given the 'morning star'.

The HOLY CITY - 'camp of the saints' have a different REWARD

Revelation 22:12
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to
every man according to what he has done (works done IN CHRIST). NASU

I am seeing something different here too Ret. Before that verse John was "in the spirit" seeing into the future and revealing what will be. In [22:8] he was back in his time. So, in [22:12] when he wrote...."Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be," it is telling us about when Jesus comes to judge and make war.

I don't see it as when He brings reward to His saints but judgment on all. Some rewarded and some not. I see it as the same event written of.....

• * Revelation 19:15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What am I not understanding?[/b]

Rev 22:8 does give the sense that John is/was 'back in his time' but note that the same angel who talked to John before v8, continues to talk to him through v17 but not sure about the rest of the chapter, though it seems the whole of Revelation starting with Rev 1:10 to the end is given by the same angel, or within the understanding given by the 'angel'.

 

[whirlwind]

Then there is the 'camp of the saints' who 'dwell in heaven', though physically they exist in the flesh still on this earth. Satan deceives the nations and rallys around the 'beloved city' and the 'camp of the saints' - God destorys the nations with fire and Satan and is thrown into the lake of fire.

Hi Ret,

In reading back through this thread I find I still question that some will continue to "exist in the flesh," during the millennium. I thought that all flesh is gone from my understanding of the following.....

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
  
  15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Paul really has a way with words and I agree with Peter when he wrote, " in which are some things hard to be understood." [11 Peter 3:16] :yes But, my understanding of Paul's writing above is that when the seventh trumpet sounds then everyone is changed into an incorruptible body. The "dead" are the spiritually dead and they too must "put on incorruption." They have to live in their spiritually dead state throughout the millennium so they can't be in flesh, corruptible, bodies.

The elect put on incorruptible bodies but they also "shall have put on immortality." They are incorruptible and immortal. The spiritually dead must be taught during the millennium, tested at it's end and then....lake of fire or immortality.

That is what I believe is being said but I have heard others, as you, teach that there will be flesh on earth during the millennium. What is your understanding of the Corinthian verses?

 

[Vic C.]

We are all dead spiritually, every one of us, until we are born again. At that time, our spirit is made alive and stays alive, whether we are alive or "sleeping". There is no such thing as a spiritually dead born again believer. Who is teaching you this stuff? Anyway, their spirits can't be dead, the spirit has already been returned to God.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The dead in Christ do not stay dead throughout the 1,000 years. That is unless you are post-millennial. They are resurrected before that and as we are shown this:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

we see the dead are first, then those who are alive, in that order.

The spiritually dead must be taught during the millennium, tested at it's end and then....lake of fire or immortality.

One more thing, before we go on, we need to decide whether the Millennium is the Kingdom of God or not.

my belief lies in this verses:

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Determine who "he" is and the Ruler of this Kingdom becomes clear.

Let me ask a question. After the Wrath of God, including the Battle that precedes the Millennium, will all human life on Earth be destroyed?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

UMMMMMM You can be spiritually dead and believe in Christ........There are many people who believe in Christ but if you dont pray,,,repent,,,and stay in the word,,,you are spiritually dead......

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

DUde most of Christianity is spiritually dead but believe in Christ.....

 

[whirlwind]

We are all dead spiritually, every one of us, until we are born again. At that time, our spirit is made alive and stays alive, whether we are alive or "sleeping". There is no such thing as a spiritually dead born again believer. Who is teaching you this stuff? Anyway, their spirits can't be dead, the spirit has already been returned to God.

Yes...we are all spiritually dead until born again. I'm not saying the saved are the dead...the unsaved are the spiritually dead. No one is saying there is a "spiritually dead born again believer."

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

True but the Corinthians verse is about those on earth at the arrival of Christ, at the seventh trump. That includes the spiritually dead as well as the spiritually living. Those that are physically dead are already with Him (per Ecc.12:7). This is all about the spiritually dead or alive. About those that follow Satan or wait for the true Savior for there the division is made in the spiritually living or spiritually dead.

The dead in Christ do not stay dead throughout the 1,000 years. That is unless you are post-millennial. They are resurrected before that and as we are shown this:

I'm not speaking of those that die "in Christ" before His 2nd. Advent. They are with the Lord and are spiritually living already. However, those that are spiritually dead (do not have Christ) when He arrives will remain that way throughout the millennium, meaning...they are liable to die at the end of that period. Die completely, forever. Those that are spiritually living also become immortal and "on such the second death hath no power."

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

we see the dead are first, then those who are alive, in that order.

Those that have physically died are already with Him (per Ecc.12:7) so this is about the SPIRITUALLY dead at the 7th trump. They, as well as all souls, are "raised incorruptible," for "we shall be changed."

[quote:2wqa9z4v]The spiritually dead must be taught during the millennium, tested at it's end and then....lake of fire or immortality.

[/quote:2wqa9z4v]


Why ? The spiritually dead are in an incorruptible body (not immortal but they are incorruptible...everyone is). No one is killed except the fallen angels, the first beast and false prophet (the last two being roles Satan plays, not actual entities.) The millennium is a time of teaching with no influence from Satan. He is then released for a short period during which many (as the sand of the sea) follow him :crazy and then....ZAP. Great white throne judgment and then....eternity.

One more thing, before we go on, we need to decide whether the Millennium is the Kingdom of God or not.

my belief lies in this verses:

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Determine who "he" is and the Ruler of this Kingdom becomes clear.

He is Jesus. He rules His kingdom during the millennium until "all enemies" are "under His feet." His feet being...the man child. :yes

• * 1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
  
  Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then...eternity.

Let me ask a question. After the Wrath of God, including the Battle that precedes the Millennium, will all human life on Earth be destroyed?

That is my question to Ret (and to you). I believe the Corinthians verses are telling us all flesh is gone at the seventh trumpet.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

It seems pretty clear cut,,,,,,,1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Key word being "ALL"

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead/not living on earth,,,, are already changed into spiritual bodys,,,,,,then we that are on earth will be changed at Christ return,,,,if the dead are changed and the living are changed who's left

 

[Vic C.]

UMMMMMM You can be spiritually dead and believe in Christ........There are many people who believe in Christ but if you dont pray,,,repent,,,and stay in the word,,,you are spiritually dead......

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

DUde most of Christianity is spiritually dead but believe in Christ.....

Read what I posted please, I said born-again. Nowhere is it said a born again believer is or can be spiritually dead. If anyone is teaching that, they are teaching another Gospel. Read John 3, Jesus was explaining this very concept to Nicodemus.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

UMMMMMM You can be spiritually dead and believe in Christ........There are many people who believe in Christ but if you dont pray,,,repent,,,and stay in the word,,,you are spiritually dead......

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Dude most of Christianity is spiritually dead but believe in Christ.....

Read what I posted please, I said born-again. Nowhere is it said a born again believer is or can be spiritually dead. If anyone is teaching that, they are teaching another Gospel. Read John 3, Jesus was explaining this very concept to Nicodemus.

I dont think you understand what spirtually dead is,,,,,,,,,,and I have read from wence you quote,,,and I have a feeling you dont understand the lesson that Christ was giving seeing how you keep saying "Born Again" when the text actually reads "Born from Above"# 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above".

So your using a verse you dont even understand trying to prove something else you seem not to understand.....Christ said you must be born from above......

and if you dont believe you can be a believer of Christ and be spiritually dead your gonna get a big shock when Christ gets back......Dont you ever see those churches where people never learn anything they sing songs the preachers ask for money then they sing more songs and do some babeling and everyone goes home???????You think there spiritually alive ???????

 

[Vic C.]

I'm not speaking of those that die "in Christ" before His 2nd. Advent. They are with the Lord and are spiritually living already. However, those that are spiritually dead (do not have Christ) when He arrives will remain that way throughout the millennium, meaning...they are liable to die at the end of that period. Die completely, forever. Those that are spiritually living also become immortal and "on such the second death hath no power."

Whirlwind, first off you need to understand something about Eccl. 12:7,

It makes no distinction between the righteous and unrighteous. That verse and passage simply says that all that die, have their spirit return to God. He gave it and He takes it back. Only those souls who have been saved will be reunited with their spirit when they get their transform, incorruptible bodies.

1 Cor 15:52 is clear; first the dead in Christ will rise (be resurrected) then we who are alive will be gathered together with them and we all achieve immortality. The converted Jews whom Paul was speaking to knew exactly what this meant.

I agree the unsaved "wait" in the graves another 1,000 years. Revelation says that much.


Check this out; this is great history ind information.

The Last Trump

"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."

(Hebraic Heritage Ministries, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/)

(Lev 23:24 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

(Num 29:1 KJV) And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

According to Num 10:10, Israel was to blow a trumpet at the beginning of each month. Since the Mosaic festival year was seven months long, the seventh month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day." (Ernest L. Martin, The Star that Astonished the World, (c)1996, pg 95)

Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is quite possible that Paul, being Jewish himself and surely knowledgeable of the Jewish feasts and customs, was making a symbolic reference to this time of year -- the Day of Trumpets. "The 'Last Trump' of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96).

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

 

[Vic C.]

I dont think you understand what spirtually dead is,,,,,,,,,,and I have read from wence you quote,,,and I have a feeling you dont understand the lesson that Christ was giving seeing how you keep saying "Born Again" when the text actually reads "Born from Above"# 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above".

You are beginning to bore me with your pseudo knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. I am well aware that Born again and Born from above are used interchangeably. :gah

The people in those churches you speak of are not Born Again. Oh excuse me, I don't want to offend you... Born from above. :bigfrown

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I dont think you understand what spirtually dead is,,,,,,,,,,and I have read from wence you quote,,,and I have a feeling you dont understand the lesson that Christ was giving seeing how you keep saying "Born Again" when the text actually reads "Born from Above"# 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above".

You are beginning to bore me with your pseudo knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. I am well aware that Born again and Born from above are used interchangeably. :gah

The people in those churches you speak of are not Born Again. Oh excuse me, I don't want to offend you... Born from above. :bigfrown

:mad


It is getting boring having to correct these childish errors.........

born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman,,,so why would you tell anyone on earth there not born from above :biglol ,,,,O,, I get it your confused ,,,,,,You think "born from above" means "born of the spirit"...... :naughty

Born from above = being born through the womb of woman,,,,,,,then after you are born into this world you must decide who you will serve ,,,if you choose Christ THEN YOU ARE BORN FROM SPIRIT you have mixed up the two.........

So you are wrong,,,, born from above and born again are only interchangable by word not by meaning.....

When you say "born again" you mean accecptence of Christ,,,,,,,Christ said you must be born form above,,,which literally means,,,, you must be born from the womb of a woman,,,, unlike the fallen ones that did not want to be born form above and choose to leave there habitat........But im sure you knew that......... :nod

 

[Free]

born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman

:o

 

[whirlwind]

I'm not speaking of those that die "in Christ" before His 2nd. Advent. They are with the Lord and are spiritually living already. However, those that are spiritually dead (do not have Christ) when He arrives will remain that way throughout the millennium, meaning...they are liable to die at the end of that period. Die completely, forever. Those that are spiritually living also become immortal and "on such the second death hath no power."

Whirlwind, first off you need to understand something about Eccl. 12:7,

It makes no distinction between the righteous and unrighteous. That verse and passage simply says that all that die, have their spirit return to God. He gave it and He takes it back. Only those souls who have been saved will be reunited with their spirit when they get their transform, incorruptible bodies.

I agree....it makes no distinction. All souls go to the Father upon physical death. You must tell me where it is written that saved souls are reunited with their spirit. This is the question I have been asking. It appears to me from the Corinthian verses that all, everyone, is in an incorruptible body. Where do you see it written differently?

1 Cor 15:52 is clear; first the dead in Christ will rise (be resurrected) then we who are alive will be gathered together with them and we all achieve immortality. The converted Jews whom Paul was speaking to knew exactly what this meant.

But, what is written is....In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. It doesn't say "the dead in Christ." I'm not saying you aren't right...I just don't see it written and the verses to me are saying something completely different.

I agree the unsaved "wait" in the graves another 1,000 years. Revelation says that much.

Actually...that isn't what I meant at all. Although they are the spiritually dead they aren't in a grave as in laying dormant for the duration. The righteous (not elect but righteous) are taught during the millennium. That is what the millennium is for.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman

:o

Why marvel????

Didnt you know that no man has ascended into heaven except he that first came down...

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

To enter the kingdom one must be born from water (the womb),,,,,,,,,,, then one must be born of spirit (excepting Christ as saviour) if you dont except Christ you aint going to heaven,,,and if you choose not be born of woman you are doomed,,,,,like these guys,,,

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Free]

born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman

:o

Why marvel????

I'm not marveling; I'm stunned. First you have the audacity to tell someone (an admin no less) that you are bored correcting their "childish errors", which is not at all a nice thing to say. Then you immediately make a serious error yourself.

"Born from above" does not mean "a soul that was born through a woman". Souls are not pre-existent. If by "soul" you simply mean "living being", you are still wrong. As Vic correctly stated: "Born again and Born from above are used interchangeably." Jesus clearly distinguishes that which is "above" from that which is of this world:

Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Which brings us to this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Clearly, when Jesus mentions "born again" ("born from above"), he is not meaning physical birth--that is the very thing Nicodemus thought that Jesus corrected him about.

To enter the kingdom one must be born from water (the womb)

Very debatable since it is obvious that we are all born from the womb.

and if you choose not be born of woman you are doomed,

Um, I'm curious: just how does one go about choosing no to be born of a woman?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by NIGHTMARE
born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman

You say Vic is making childish errors; yet you are missing the very basics of Christianity.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

Whatever interpretive gymnastics or word games one wishes to utilize, Jesus is very clear on the subject; and He explains the two kinds of births - birth "of the flesh" (the birth Nicodemus had in mind), and those who experience the second birth - who are "born of the Spirit".

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

To become naturalized as a citizen of the kingdom of God, Jesus pointed out that a person needs to renounce his carnal life (being born of water), and must be born of the Spirit. This process only happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. (i.e. one must receive the gift of a new nature [attitude, outlook] from the Spirit of God).

Don't forget; Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus who believed the Kingdom of God was granted on the basis of complete conformity to the law; that God transferred the guilt, that comes with the violation of law, by animal sacrifices; and that sacrificial ceremonies produced forgiveness. Nicodemus thought that the Kingdom of God was limited to those people who were of Israel. But, Jesus said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Many Israelites were saved from death by looking at the bronze serpent that Moses put on a pole, and all people who live in the world have been bitten by that ancient serpent, the devil, and the only way people can be saved from eternal death is by looking up to the One who will be lifted up on a pole.

Also, you are misunderstanding this verse:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

Jesus was speaking of Himself, not us. Check out the Greek. This is how the verse reads:

"No one has ever lived in Heaven and then on Earth except Me, the Son of Man who came from Heaven."

Jesus told Nicodemus that He was a man, born of a woman. Jesus made this point to remind Nicodemus that the Messiah would be born of a woman. (Isaiah 7)

This was about Jesus, and a prophecy in Isaiah concerning Him. It was NOT at all about 'everybody' (i.e. us) coming down from "above" and being born through the womb of a woman. Look at these verses:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)

"The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:47)

"They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" (John 6:42)

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)" (Romans 10:6)

"He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all." (John 3:31)