The Dead, the Prophets, the Saints & .......

[Free]

I do think/see the term 'millennium' more figurative and symbolic... like 'forever'.

You don't mean that the 1000 years that Satan is locked up means forever, do you? Since Satan is released after that 1000 years it certainly could not mean "forever". It may be symbolic for a length of time but it certainly can't mean "forever".

Do you not understand it was a earth age before this one?????????

What do you mean?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind

There are two judgments.


2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

That is the first judgment.

The "first judgment"?? :bigfrown. Do you know what the "judgment seat of Christ" is? And how do you explain these verses:

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20 states that "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (verse 5), and that they did not participate in "the first resurrection"; therefore, there needs be another resurrection (check out definition of resurrection) later on. The other resurrection is just prior to Judgement Day, AFTER the thousand years (i.e. "when the thousand years are expired" - Revelation 20:7). In other words; the "other" resurrection occurs "when the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5), where they are resurrected for Judgement. If "lived not again" simply means they "aren't saved yet", or did not receive immortality yet, what is the meaning of them being "resurrected"? Exactly "how" are they resurrected?

Revelation 20:4,5 says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
And then it says: "This is the first resurrection."

This can only mean that those present in the Millennium are all saved eternally, and any who are not saved eternally (at that time) are not present during this thousand years (the Millennium). Therefore, it is not possible that those who have died in an unsaved state could be present in the Millennium at this time being taught anything by anyone, because if they are present in the Millennium before the thousand years expire, they are already eternally saved.

 

[whirlwind]

Zephaniah 2:1-3 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. See ye the LORD all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Do you believe the day of the Lord, which I see as the millennium, is the same day of the Lord's anger?

Within the sequence of events the millennium and the 'day of the Lord's anger' are during the same time. Whether I see the millennium as you see it...? close perhaps. I do think/see the term 'millennium' more figurative and symbolic... like 'forever'.

I believe the day of wrath overlaps, and/or connects, the very end of this age with the very beginning of the Lord's Day (the millennium). Then, time as we know it changes.

• * Revelation 10:4-6 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
  
  10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets

.

The mystery is that He is in us. When "he shall begin to sound," and that mystery "should be finished," I believe means....the time to be in Him and He in us is over. "The door is shut"...."I know you not." [Matthew 25:10,12]

Once all seven "had uttered" their voices then there will be....time no longer. But the sounding of the seventh angel doesn't appear to be one quick blast of the trumpet for it is written "he shall begin to sound" and "in the days of" the sounding so there is a period of time or at least two days. Is the beginning of the sounding His day of wrath for then the world will know and the mystery finished? And then....the Day of the Lord....millennium and "time no more." Then time slips into a totally different realm just as it was in the beginning of creation. Is that the time you wrote of in an earlier post?

As far as the millennium being forever....even if you see it being symbolic...why forever? What of [Revelation 20:7-15]?

 

[Ret]

I do think/see the term 'millennium' more figurative and symbolic... like 'forever'.

You don't mean that the 1000 years that Satan is locked up means forever, do you? Since Satan is released after that 1000 years it certainly could not mean "forever". It may be symbolic for a length of time but it certainly can't mean "forever".

Man's covenant or promise is 'forever'...but that 'forever' ceases at his death.

God's covenant, apart from man, is 'forever'...because God NEVER dies.

As far as the millennium being forever....even if you see it being symbolic...why forever? What of [Revelation 20:7-15]?

The purpose of the millennium is to purge, cleanse, and purify through fire (death) man in thinking he is able to promise God anything, because man has no power within himself to exist or live beyond death. So, while the wrath of God is spent on the wicked, the righteous are watching.

Example is the destruction of Pharaoh's army in plain view of all of Israel, who were watching the event. God was glorified, sanctified in the eyes of all Israel - the news of this event extended to the nations around, who took note of the 'God of Israel'!

• Romans 9:22-24
  
  22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
  endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
  
  23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
  which he had afore prepared unto glory,
  
  24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? KJV

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind

There are two judgments.


2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

That is the first judgment.

The "first judgment"?? :bigfrown. Do you know what the "judgment seat of Christ" is? And how do you explain these verses:

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20 states that "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (verse 5), and that they did not participate in "the first resurrection"; therefore, there needs be another resurrection (check out definition of resurrection) later on. The other resurrection is just prior to Judgement Day, AFTER the thousand years (i.e. "when the thousand years are expired" - Revelation 20:7). In other words; the "other" resurrection occurs "when the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5), where they are resurrected for Judgeme )nt. If "lived not again" simply means they "aren't saved yet", or did not receive immortality yet, what is the meaning of them being "resurrected"? Exactly "how" are they resurrected?

If souls are resurrected only for judgment, which you seem to be implying is punishment...why resurrect them? Why not just zap the evil little critters at the first judgment? Why not just kill them when His wrath spills? Why keep the "dead" around at all? (And yes, I am familiar with the judgment seat of Christ. )

Revelation 20:4,5 says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
And then it says: "This is the first resurrection."

This can only mean that those present in the Millennium are all saved eternally, and any who are not saved eternally (at that time) are not present during this thousand years (the Millennium). Therefore, it is not possible that those who have died in an unsaved state could be present in the Millennium at this time being taught anything by anyone, because if they are present in the Millennium before the thousand years expire, they are already eternally saved.

If those present in the millennium are, as you say..."all saved eternally" then who are these.....

• * Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, God and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

What happens to those either non-existant dead souls, or eternally saved individuals? "And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." So....there will be folks there (the dead and the living) and those that follow Satan are among the dead...the spiritually dead and as you see, they were not "eternally saved."

 

[whirlwind]

The purpose of the millennium is to purge, cleanse, and purify through fire (death) man in thinking he is able to promise God anything, because man has no power within himself to exist or live beyond death. So, while the wrath of God is spent on the wicked, the righteous are watching.

I love that!

I do think though that His wrath on the wicked will be spent on the righteous as well. Again, I believe we are given three separate groups. The elect, the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are good people but follow other gods, no god, or have been misled into following Satan because of their love for Christ. They are misled, untaught at all, or :crazy . The wicked are fully aware of what they are doing and they love doing it.

Example is the destruction of Pharaoh's army in plain view of all of Israel, who were watching the event. God was glorified, sanctified in the eyes of all Israel - the news of this event extended to the nations around, who took note of the 'God of Israel'!

That destruction I associate not so much with the wrath of God but with the destruction of Babylon, the beast, false prophet and Satan's true believers...his man child.

• * Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
  
  19:29-21 And the beast was taken and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him That sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

• Romans 9:22-24
  
  22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
  endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
  
  23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
  which he had afore prepared unto glory,
  
  24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? KJV

There I think you have shown the difference in the wrath and the destruction. The wicked are destroyed after the wrath but both the wicked and righteous (non-elect) endure His wrath and it, as you pointed out, makes "known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy," on His elect. The wicked will be destroyed, the righteous will see His mercy on His elect.

 

[whirlwind]

Osgiliath, I realized that in my previous reply to you I didn't answer your question.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

• * Matthew 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The elect are with Him and they are given "power over the nations" so I see the "holy angels with Him" as the elect. Those of the "nations" are the sheep, the righteous. We have the elect and the righteous. What of the goats?

• * 25:41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The elect, the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are the good people of the world that lived the life God approves of...they fed the hungry and thirsty, clothed the naked, helped the sick and yet did so without knowing Him...without being saved. But, the only way to the Father is through the Son so even though they are sheep and are welcomed into the kingdom....they are not yet the "living." They are still spiritually dead.

As Ret just beautifully phrased it above.....The purpose of the millennium is to purge, cleanse, and purify through fire (death) man in thinking he is able to promise God anything, because man has no power within himself to exist or live beyond death. The elect have died to self and they, as priests of God and of Christ will teach the others during this time.

• * Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Revelation 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again (lived not) until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

They are immortal. The others, the spiritually dead, are incorruptible but...not immortal. They are still liable to die. They must be tested, which is the reason Satan is kept around for the millennium.

After he deceives whomever he can and is then "tormented day and night for ever and ever," we have the second judgment....the "great white throne" judgment where the dead, the spiritually dead, "were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

 

[Ret]

I do think though that His wrath on the wicked will be spent on the righteous as well.

Watching an event progress has two opposite effects. When a 'child' is born there is much rejoicing. As the child matures, the parents also mature more fully - my child went to "Iraq" for one term (2005/06) ...Ooooo, we parents were pain just 'watching'...just worrying about it!. Soooo, if you see your child, parent, loved one among the 'wicked' during the millennium, will you not be in 'pain'...? Yes, there is a maturing (wrath) process for the righteous...they will NOT be rejoicing over the destruction of the wicked. (Hummm...will they want to extend mercy 'a little longer' to the wicked..?)

Again, I believe we are given three separate groups. The elect, the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are good people but follow other gods, no god, or have been misled into following Satan because of their love for Christ. They are misled, untaught at all, or :crazy . The wicked are fully aware of what they are doing and they love doing it.

There 3 groups all along. After the millennium Rev 20:7-9 each is more distinct from the other.
A. The nations...ones Satan has 'deceived' & gathers for 'war' (# like 'sand of the seashore')
B. The saints...understand 'gospel', will extend MERCY to the 'Beloved' (& the wicked..?).
B. The 'Beloved'...those who understand 'election', but are enemies of the 'gospel'!

• Romans 11:28-32
  
  28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
  but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
  
  29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
  30 For as ye in times past have not believed God,
  yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
  31 Even so have these also now not believed,
  that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
  32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
  that he might have mercy upon all. KJV

Will address rest of your post later today, I hope! ...

 

[whirlwind]

I do think though that His wrath on the wicked will be spent on the righteous as well.

Watching an event progress has two opposite effects. When a 'child' is born there is much rejoicing. As the child matures, the parents also mature more fully - my child went to "Iraq" for one term (2005/06) ...Ooooo, we parents were pain just 'watching'...just worrying about it!. Soooo, if you see your child, parent, loved one among the 'wicked' during the millennium, will you not be in 'pain'...? Yes, there is a maturing (wrath) process for the righteous...they will NOT be rejoicing over the destruction of the wicked. (Hummm...will they want to extend mercy 'a little longer' to the wicked..?)

I don't believe the wicked will be among the righteous or the righteous among the elect. The separation is when Jesus places the sheep on one side and the goats on the other. Perhaps the parable of Lazarus and the rich man explains this?

From Ezekiel, in the chapters about the millennium, we are given one example of the elect being able to go to the righteous (and perhaps to the wicked?).

• * Ezekiel 44:9-10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity. (13) And they shall not come near unto Me to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

No one that is not saved can enter the Sanctuary and on the do-not-enter list are the reverends, priests, pastors, etc. in this present age that misled their flocks (the children of Israel.) They shall "bear their iniquity." These are the righteous. Good people but misled in this life.

• * 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD: They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.
  
  44:23-24 And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.

These are the elect, those that didn't fall into apostasy.

• * 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

They, the elect, are the spiritually living. They are immortal. All others are incorruptible but are still liable to die so are termed the dead...the spiritually dead. They are allowed to go to a "dead" family member to help them. I don't know if the wicked members of one's family are still around or only the righteous ones. I wonder if the following verse is connected to this?

• * Acts 16:31 And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Again, I believe we are given three separate groups. The elect, the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are good people but follow other gods, no god, or have been misled into following Satan because of their love for Christ. They are misled, untaught at all, or :crazy . The wicked are fully aware of what they are doing and they love doing it.

There 3 groups all along. After the millennium Rev 20:7-9 each is more distinct from the other.
A. The nations...ones Satan has 'deceived' & gathers for 'war' (# like 'sand of the seashore')
B. The saints...understand 'gospel', will extend MERCY to the 'Beloved' (& the wicked..?).

B. The 'Beloved'...those who understand 'election', but are enemies of the 'gospel'!

• Romans 11:28-32
  
  28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
  but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
  
  29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
  30 For as ye in times past have not believed God,
  yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
  31 Even so have these also now not believed,
  that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
  32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
  that he might have mercy upon all. KJV

Will address rest of your post later today, I hope! ...

I look forward to it and....I'm glad your soldier is back home with you.

 

[Ret]

I don't believe the wicked will be among the righteous or the righteous among the elect. The separation is when Jesus places the sheep on one side and the goats on the other. Perhaps the parable of Lazarus and the rich man explains this?

From Ezekiel, in the chapters about the millennium, we are given one example of the elect being able to go to the righteous.

According to Moses and LAW, Ezekiel - temple services/clean/unclean... I agree with you... :yes
According to Jesus Christ & GRACE... many do NOT know what they are doing.

The verses from Ezekiel are good...Jesus fulfilled every requirement, past, present and future
that has been, IS and will be made of them...no one is (charged) GUILTY of breaking a command, until God REVEALS the gospel to them! Look at Paul. He was killing the Christians, till he was stopped in his tracks...and God revealed Himself! We are given to witness about Christ (no I am not JW) but we cannot force truth or understanding upon anyone. God is the teacher.

• Luke 23:34
  34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. KJV
  
  1 Corinthians 2:7-8
  7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,
  which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it,
  they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. KJV

 

[Ret]

This post didn't seem to fit, so seems better edit... :swords

 

[whirlwind]

I don't believe the wicked will be among the righteous or the righteous among the elect. The separation is when Jesus places the sheep on one side and the goats on the other. Perhaps the parable of Lazarus and the rich man explains this?

From Ezekiel, in the chapters about the millennium, we are given one example of the elect being able to go to the righteous.

According to Moses and LAW, Ezekiel - temple services/clean/unclean... I agree with you... :yes
According to Jesus Christ & GRACE... many do NOT know what they are doing.

The verses from Ezekiel are good...Jesus fulfilled every requirement, past, present and future
that has been, IS and will be made of them...no one is (charged) GUILTY of breaking a command, until God REVEALS the gospel to them! Look at Paul. He was killing the Christians, till he was stopped in his tracks...and God revealed Himself! We are given to witness about Christ (no I am not JW) but we cannot force truth or understanding upon anyone. God is the teacher.

• Luke 23:34
  34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. KJV
  
  1 Corinthians 2:7-8
  7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,
  which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it,
  they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. KJV

Realizing that meant so much to me. When I was very young I simply couldn't come to terms with the thought that people raised in a religion of idolatry...in which they lived as basically good people, good citizens, were to be thrown in a lake of fire. Understanding the above made me realize...they are the righteous. As the righteous, not the elect and not the wicked....they will be taught. And yes, God is the teacher.

 

[Ret]

Realizing that meant so much to me. When I was very young I simply couldn't come to terms with the thought that people raised in a religion of idolatry...in which they lived as basically good people, good citizens, were to be thrown in a lake of fire. Understanding the above made me realize...they are the righteous. As the righteous, not the elect and not the wicked....they will be taught. And yes, God is the teacher.

Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow! :amen

• Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute (charge) sin. KJV
  
  Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
  
  34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. KJV

... :amen ... all these verses mean a lot to me as well, especially when I think of FAMILY!