The Dead, the Prophets, the Saints & .......

[NIGHTMARE]

I'm not marveling; I'm stunned. First you have the audacity to tell someone (an admin no less) that you are bored correcting their "childish errors", which is not at all a nice thing to say. Then you immediately make a serious error yourself.

"Born from above" does not mean "a soul that was born through a woman". Souls are not pre-existent. If by "soul" you simply mean "living being", you are still wrong. As Vic correctly stated: "Born again and Born from above are used interchangeably." Jesus clearly distinguishes that which is "above" from that which is of this world:

Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Which brings us to this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Clearly, when Jesus mentions "born again" ("born from above"), he is not meaning physical birth--that is the very thing Nicodemus thought that Jesus corrected him about.

To enter the kingdom one must be born from water (the womb)

Very debatable since it is obvious that we are all born from the womb.

and if you choose not be born of woman you are doomed,

Um, I'm curious: just how does one go about choosing no to be born of a woman?[/quote]

VIc said hes bored of my Hebrew,,,I say,, I tired of his errors its not that big adeal,,,also I like Vic,,,and these arent even salvation issues.....As far as a Admins that doesnt make you correct,,,I think hes wrong on some things and well,....But hes cool in my book,,,,,

ok as far as the doctrine your pushin,,,,I gotta say there some serious errors in there,,,and there obvoius ones........You got the audacity to tell me,,,,,

U SAID AND I QUOTE,,,, "Souls are not pre-existent"........ :P I mean how do you think any christian would act?????? you cant be serious.......

So what are you saying?????that souls are created at birth????

,,,,,,,5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God told Jeremiah that he knew him before he formed him in the belly,,,,Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet before he was even born,,,,that should end that talk....

 

[Free]

U SAID AND I QUOTE,,,, "Souls are not pre-existent"........ :P I mean how do you think any christian would act?????? you cant be serious.......

So what are you saying?????that souls are created at birth????

Depending on who you ask, the soul is either a non-material part of us created at conception (or sometime up to and maybe including birth), or, "soul" means what it means in Hebrew, "living being". Soul is first used in the OT to mean the point at which God breathed into Adam and he became a living being, a soul. That is, we don't have souls, we are souls. Those are just two schools of thought.

But to say that we have pre-existent souls is definitely outside the realm of Christianity. That is what Mormons believe.

God told Jeremiah that he knew him before he formed him in the belly,,,,Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet before he was even born,,,,that should end that talk....

You would think so. Just as God knows the beginning from the end, just as he has created good works to do for those who follow him, he knows who we are and what we will be like. To say that this text means we exist as souls or spirits before we are born is to go far beyond what the text is saying.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

:o[/quote]
Why marvel????[/quote]
I'm not marveling; I'm stunned. First you have the audacity to tell someone (an admin no less) that you are bored correcting their "childish errors", which is not at all a nice thing to say. Then you immediately make a serious error yourself.

"Born from above" does not mean "a soul that was born through a woman". Souls are not pre-existent. If by "soul" you simply mean "living being", you are still wrong. As Vic correctly stated: "Born again and Born from above are used interchangeably." Jesus clearly distinguishes that which is "above" from that which is of this world:

Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Which brings us to this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Clearly, when Jesus mentions "born again" ("born from above"), he is not meaning physical birth--that is the very thing Nicodemus thought that Jesus corrected him about.

To enter the kingdom one must be born from water (the womb)

Very debatable since it is obvious that we are all born from the womb.

and if you choose not be born of woman you are doomed,

Um, I'm curious: just how does one go about choosing no to be born of a woman?[/quote]

OK im not trying to put you on blast or nothin,,,but the things you ask,,,its as if you never read your bible.........

You said that everyone is born from the womb,,,,AND YOU ARE WRONG,,,,,,

Please read again ::::6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

These angels left there home and came to earth (so to speak) and then they :::

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
SO,,,,, NO ,,,,everyone was not born throughhe womb some souls choose not to (fallen angels) ,,,,,,Christ told you that no man ascends into heaven excepts he who comes down,,,,John 3:13

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Lets simplify

NO man goes to heaven,,,,, unless,,,,,, he comes down from heaven ,,,,even CHRIST

Because Christ was in heaven,,,came down from heaven,,and went through Mary,,,,do we see a pattern here?????? You start off in heaven,,,and then are born through woman,,,because God knew us all before we were born.............

 

[NIGHTMARE]

U SAID AND I QUOTE,,,, "Souls are not pre-existent"........ :P I mean how do you think any christian would act?????? you cant be serious.......

So what are you saying?????that souls are created at birth????

Depending on who you ask, the soul is either a non-material part of us created at conception (or sometime up to and maybe including birth), or, "soul" means what it means in Hebrew, "living being". Soul is first used in the OT to mean the point at which God breathed into Adam and he became a living being, a soul. That is, we don't have souls, we are souls. Those are just two schools of thought.

But to say that we have pre-existent souls is definitely outside the realm of Christianity. That is what Mormons believe.

God told Jeremiah that he knew him before he formed him in the belly,,,,Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet before he was even born,,,,that should end that talk....

You would think so. Just as God knows the beginning from the end, just as he has created good works to do for those who follow him, he knows who we are and what we will be like. To say that this text means we exist as souls or spirits before we are born is to go far beyond what the text is saying.

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Before GOD,,,,,formed Jeremiah to be born a little bitty child inside his mother,,,,,God knew Jeremiah

Are you really going to try and change this,,,,,

Its says God made Jeremiah a prophet before Jeremiah was even born.....Have you even looked at the doctrine you hold??????

As far as Adam and Eve...well good said in Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, ad over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."


DId you get that????REPLENISH,,,,,not plenish ,,,,but replenish ,,,the earth ,,,how can you replenish some thing that was containing anything????? and I aint a mormom ,,,,,wouldnt that mean I have to get rid of my muscle car??????

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
The righteous (not elect but righteous) are taught during the millennium. That is what the millennium is for.

You can't be serious! Whirlwind, there is no point to this flesh age if you believe those who didn't make it can be taught in the Millennium. There will be no "teaching time" in the Millennium. If the Millennium is a time when people who didn't make it can still be saved, then why are we even here in this flesh age in the first place? What is the purpose of this place if our choices here can be overturned in the Millennium when we are no longer in the flesh, and already know everything there is to know. That makes no logical sense whatsoever:

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

There is no "teaching time" between die and judgment mentioned Hebrews 9:27. Life in the flesh was not an exhibition game, nor a trial or practice run. That would go against all of the insistency and urgency that Christ taught regarding overcoming now before it's too late. This flesh age is the ONLY DAY of teaching.

Do you say: "Well, it's OK, I'll be able to teach them in the Millennium anyway". I think not. If you are referring to the last chapters of Ezekiel, Ezekiel was speaking of the "possible future Kingdom" - the reign of Christ if He had been accepted rather than rejected. When Israel rejected Jesus, God delayed establishing His kingdom on Earth. A [second] "New Covenant" was put in place and Jesus returned to Heaven where He sits at the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55,56). The [first] "Old Covenant" kingdom on Earth with it's sacrifices was nailed to the cross. Christ is now our ONLY sacrifice, for one and all times (Hebrews 10:10,12). The Millennium of Ezekiel [first - Old Covenant] does not align with the Millennium of Revelation [second - New Covenant], but we know God's Word aligns perfectly, so it's obvious something has changed with the establishment of the New Covenant.

Revelation chapter 20 forward is "the new Ezekiel 40-48." Why? They rejected the King of Ezekiel 40-48, they killed the Messiah of God and broke the Covenant. Therefore, God made a New Covenant, replacing (making void) the Old Covenant. In Ezekiel we are in a flesh (body) with the Lord, in Revelation we are in the spirit (body). In Ezekiel they offer animal sacrifices, in Revelation (and anytime after Christ was "once" offered) animal sacrifice does not exist. Therefore, the animal sacrifices by flesh human priests in Ezekiel have been replaced by Jesus Christ (see verses from Hebrews below).

1 Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

I must say; you have completely lost me whirlwind. Your view on this "Millennium teaching time" is even more bizarre than your chronological reversal of the Seals. Here is some more Scripture that I think you should read (thoroughly):

Hebrews 10:9 "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

 

[researcher]

U SAID AND I QUOTE,,,, "Souls are not pre-existent"........ :P I mean how do you think any christian would act?????? you cant be serious.......

So what are you saying?????that souls are created at birth????

Depending on who you ask, the soul is either a non-material part of us created at conception (or sometime up to and maybe including birth), or, "soul" means what it means in Hebrew, "living being". Soul is first used in the OT to mean the point at which God breathed into Adam and he became a living being, a soul. That is, we don't have souls, we are souls. Those are just two schools of thought.

But to say that we have pre-existent souls is definitely outside the realm of Christianity. That is what Mormons believe.

God told Jeremiah that he knew him before he formed him in the belly,,,,Jeremiah was ordained to be a prophet before he was even born,,,,that should end that talk....

You would think so. Just as God knows the beginning from the end, just as he has created good works to do for those who follow him, he knows who we are and what we will be like. To say that this text means we exist as souls or spirits before we are born is to go far beyond what the text is saying.

We could throw this into the loop.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Jerusalem that is above is our "mother" according to Paul. The apostle John said that the Jerusalem that is above is the bride of Christ. So if new Jerusalem is the "bride" i.e. "us," then, we came from ourselves, or, we are the "mother" of ourselves. So, how did we exist before we actually existed in order to be our own mothers? A mother lives before her offspring do. The only clear way to interpret this (imo) is that our spirits existed before our flesh did. Which is why we are able to hear God's voice.. because we are born of Him.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

And of course, being able to hear God's words is how we are saved...

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

So if I have to be born of God in order to hear God's words so that I can be saved through faith, when was I born of God? I know my mom and dad. I'm pretty sure my mom is the one who "bore" me (my flesh body). So, that leaves my spirit. When was my spirit born of God seeing that I was able to hear his words in order to be saved?

Of course there is the flip side. Those who are not born of God and who cannot hear his words because of that (Joh 8:47). If you can't hear, you can't be saved. And you can only hear if you are born of Him. Thus your being born of Him would have to precede salvation, and most likely your flesh body. :o :P

Imo at least. ;) :D

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
The righteous (not elect but righteous) are taught during the millennium. That is what the millennium is for.

You can't be serious! Whirlwind, there is no point to this flesh age if you believe those who didn't make it can be taught in the Millennium. There will be no "teaching time" in the Millennium. If the Millennium is a time when people who didn't make it can still be saved, then why are we even here in this flesh age in the first place? What is the purpose of this place if our choices here can be overturned in the Millennium when we are no longer in the flesh, and already know everything there is to know. That makes no logical sense whatsoever:

I'm quite serious.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

There are two judgments.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

That is the first judgment.

 

[Benoni]

There are far more then two judgements.

Many read the Bible and see two contradictory views of God: first, the fiery God of judgment as described in the Old Testament, and second, the Christ of love as demonstrated in the New Testament.

Some, confused by this apparent contradiction, reject the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.

However, when we study the subject of God’s judgments, we must not take the “hard†passages by themselves, but instead, must study them in the light of God’s enduring love and mercy. Take them alone, and we have a God whose forgiveness and mercy is limited; but take them in light of God’s everlasting love and compassion and we see that there is no contradiction at allâ€â€the glove of God’s judgment fits perfectly over His hand of love.

The Bible declares “Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, THE LORD IS ONE.†This statement not only forms the basis of our monotheistic belief, but it also clearly declares that, in God, there is no variation or division. The number “one†is scripture means unity, united, undivided, or unfragmented. So when the Bible says, “God is one,†it is another way of saying that GOD CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF.

In Him there is no division, and since the Scriptures are the very Words of God, it also cannot contradict itself. For God to contradict Himself would mean that He is divided within Himself; for the Scriptures to contradict itself would bring discredit upon its inerrancyâ€â€both of which would be a fatal blow to the Christian faith. However, James says that in Him there is “no variableness, neither shadow of turning.†(Ja. 1:17) Praise His blessed name that there is no division found either in God or His life-breathed Word!

Let’s take one exampleâ€â€2 Thes. 1:8-9. Paul here tells us that God will punish those who obey not the gospel of Christ with everlasting destruction.

Does he mean that these men will remain as sinners forever, to be tormented with never-ending punishments, OR could it be that, just like when Jesus did not mean we are to literally hate our loved ones, this passage does not speak of the eternal torture of men, but the everlasting destruction of the old nature and its evil deeds?

The Church would have us believe the former, but I contend that their interpretation of this and many like passages contradicts the myriad of passages that speak of God’s love and mercy. By no means do we intend to make light of God’s judgment or in any way lessen the need for it. We do not object to God’s judgment as it is taught in the Holy Scriptures.

However, we do object (and reject) the “orthodox†teaching that does not take God’s love into consideration when discussing His judgments, but instead puts Him in the unscriptural position of

Let there be no doubt that God will destroy the wicked and all his evil works (Ps. 145:20; Ps. 7:9), but how can God judge the sinner yet not contradict His love for all men? The answer to this question is so very simple, and yet has been grasped by so few: God will destroy all sinners by making them friends! Paul tells us that this is exactly what happened to us.

For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10) For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10)

We were once by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2), and in fact, in our flesh, we are still yet enemies of the Cross. (Phil. 3:18)

But just as God brought us from the depths of our despair and is in the process of changing us from an enemy to a friend, think it not a strange thing for God, who is rich in mercy and partial to none, to do this same work in other men in the ages to come. Col. 1:20 says that Christ will reconcile all things (lit. remove all enmity between two parties) to the Father by the blood of His Cross.

God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but to destroy all the evil works of the flesh, and when this great work of judgment is completed, all sinners along with their wickedness will have been totally destroyedâ€â€forever!

This process is not a pleasant one, nor will God spare any torment needed to accomplish His goal. The self-will and stubbornness of man will be completely broken by God’s righteous judgment, and what will come forth will be the “restoration of all things†(Acts 3:21) as every created thing will be brought to a full knowledge of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ.

Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.†1 Cor. 15:28 says that when this happens God will be “all in all.†There will not be a trace of sin or death in the entirety of God’s universe. What a day of rejoicing that will be!!

Originally posted by whirlwind
The righteous (not elect but righteous) are taught during the millennium. That is what the millennium is for.

You can't be serious! Whirlwind, there is no point to this flesh age if you believe those who didn't make it can be taught in the Millennium. There will be no "teaching time" in the Millennium. If the Millennium is a time when people who didn't make it can still be saved, then why are we even here in this flesh age in the first place? What is the purpose of this place if our choices here can be overturned in the Millennium when we are no longer in the flesh, and already know everything there is to know. That makes no logical sense whatsoever:

I'm quite serious.


[quote:3502b4a3]Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

There are two judgments.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

That is the first judgment.[/quote:3502b4a3]

 

[Benoni]

Point being God's judgments are just, not unjust as so many whose beliefs portray.

This point of view comes from the same Word of God; but one being the letter that killeth, the other being the Word that quicken or made alive.

 

[Ret]

In reading back through this thread I find I still question that some will continue to "exist in the flesh," during the millennium. I thought that all flesh is gone from my understanding of the following.....

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
  
  15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

I had read this shortly after you wrote it, but just now getting back from visiting family...

Within the words written in Corinthians, they need to be connected with Rev 22...

• Rev 22:11
  11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

WW...does this help -or- how do you read Rev 22:11..?

 

[Benoni]

Here is a verse for the unjust you all try so hard to condemn with your unjust approach to God’s word.


Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Originally posted by NIGHTMARE
born from above simply means to be a soul that was born through the womb of a woman

You say Vic is making childish errors; yet you are missing the very basics of Christianity.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

Whatever interpretive gymnastics or word games one wishes to utilize, Jesus is very clear on the subject; and He explains the two kinds of births - birth "of the flesh" (the birth Nicodemus had in mind), and those who experience the second birth - who are "born of the Spirit".

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

To become naturalized as a citizen of the kingdom of God, Jesus pointed out that a person needs to renounce his carnal life (being born of water), and must be born of the Spirit. This process only happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. (i.e. one must receive the gift of a new nature [attitude, outlook] from the Spirit of God).

Don't forget; Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus who believed the Kingdom of God was granted on the basis of complete conformity to the law; that God transferred the guilt, that comes with the violation of law, by animal sacrifices; and that sacrificial ceremonies produced forgiveness. Nicodemus thought that the Kingdom of God was limited to those people who were of Israel. But, Jesus said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Many Israelites were saved from death by looking at the bronze serpent that Moses put on a pole, and all people who live in the world have been bitten by that ancient serpent, the devil, and the only way people can be saved from eternal death is by looking up to the One who will be lifted up on a pole.

Also, you are misunderstanding this verse:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

Jesus was speaking of Himself, not us. Check out the Greek. This is how the verse reads:

"No one has ever lived in Heaven and then on Earth except Me, the Son of Man who came from Heaven."

Jesus told Nicodemus that He was a man, born of a woman. Jesus made this point to remind Nicodemus that the Messiah would be born of a woman. (Isaiah 7)

This was about Jesus, and a prophecy in Isaiah concerning Him. It was NOT at all about 'everybody' (i.e. us) coming down from "above" and being born through the womb of a woman. Look at these verses:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)

"The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:47)

"They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" (John 6:42)

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)" (Romans 10:6)

"He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all." (John 3:31)

Sorry but I dont like the way your twisting for example......

Christ said::::Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

You said::::To become naturalized as a citizen of the kingdom of God, Jesus pointed out that a person needs to renounce his carnal life (being born of water), and must be born of the Spirit. This process only happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. (i.e. one must receive the gift of a new nature [attitude, outlook] from the Spirit of God).

Your commentary is horrible,,,Christ said one must be BORN of flesh and of spirit,,,,,He did not say renounce your carnal life,,,,,you have inserted that to try and prove something thats wrong.....

2 things must be done for someone to have salvation 1) be born of woman 2) be born of spirit,,,,,funny how people change the simplist of instructions......

I have looked at this verse in the Greek

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

I have looked at this in the Greek,,,so please put forth what ever Greek your reading that you feel gives authority to render this verse the way you have.......


Again this is what you say::::This was about Jesus, and a prophecy in Isaiah concerning Him. It was NOT at all about 'everybody' (i.e. us) coming down from "above" and being born through the womb of a woman. Look at these verses:

and this is what the bible says:::And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: It is appointed for man to die because it is appointed for man to come through the womb of woman.........So basically your at a total loss for understandning why we are even here......

Do you not understand it was a earth age before this one?????????

 

[whirlwind]

In reading back through this thread I find I still question that some will continue to "exist in the flesh," during the millennium. I thought that all flesh is gone from my understanding of the following.....

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
  
  15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

I had read this shortly after you wrote it, but just now getting back from visiting family...

Within the words written in Corinthians, they need to be connected with Rev 22...

• Rev 22:11
  11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

WW...does this help -or- how do you read Rev 22:11..?

I see the verse in Revelation being a separation in the wicked, righteous and elect - the filthy and unjust, the righteous, the holy.

• * Malachi 3:8 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, and between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.
  
  4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

To me, in order for this to be done....all souls, the wicked, the righteous and the elect are all changed to spirit bodies. I see the "day that cometh" as the Lord's day...the millennium.

 

[Ret]

Let there be no doubt that God will destroy the wicked and all his evil works (Ps. 145:20; Ps. 7:9), but how can God judge the sinner yet not contradict His love for all men? The answer to this question is so very simple, and yet has been grasped by so few: God will destroy all sinners by making them friends! Paul tells us that this is exactly what happened to us.

For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10) For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (Rom. 5:10)

We were once by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2), and in fact, in our flesh, we are still yet enemies of the Cross. (Phil. 3:18)

Agreed...illustrations are Isaac & Ishmael ...Isaac and Ishmael together buried father Abraham
Then the sons of Isaac...Jacob & Esau became reconciled when Jacob returned home and together they buried father Isaac.

God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but to destroy all the evil works of the flesh, and when this great work of judgment is completed, all sinners along with their wickedness will have been totally destroyedâ€â€forever!

This process is not a pleasant one, nor will God spare any torment needed to accomplish His goal. The self-will and stubbornness of man will be completely broken by God’s righteous judgment, and what will come forth will be the “restoration of all things†(Acts 3:21) as every created thing will be brought to a full knowledge of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ.

Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.†1 Cor. 15:28 says that when this happens God will be “all in all.†There will not be a trace of sin or death in the entirety of God’s universe. What a day of rejoicing that will be!!

God is preparing the elect to live/dwell in 'everlasting burnings'

• Isa 33:14-15
  
  14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
  Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
  who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
  
  15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; KJV

 

[Ret]

WW... how do you read Rev 22:11..?

I see the verse in Revelation being a separation in the wicked, righteous and elect - the filthy and unjust, the righteous, the holy.

• * Malachi 3:8 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, and between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.
  
  4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

To me, in order for this to be done....all souls, the wicked, the righteous and the elect are all changed to spirit bodies. I see the "day that cometh" as the Lord's day...the millennium.

• Zeph 1:14-18
  
  14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near,
  and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:
  the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
  
  15 That day is
  
  a day of wrath,
  a day of trouble and distress,
  a day of wasteness and desolation,
  a day of darkness and gloominess,
  a day of clouds and thick darkness,
  16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
  
  17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
  
  18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. KJV

 

[NIGHTMARE]

WW... how do you read Rev 22:11..?

I see the verse in Revelation being a separation in the wicked, righteous and elect - the filthy and unjust, the righteous, the holy.

• * Malachi 3:8 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, and between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.
  
  4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

To me, in order for this to be done....all souls, the wicked, the righteous and the elect are all changed to spirit bodies. I see the "day that cometh" as the Lord's day...the millennium.

• Zeph 1:14-18
  
  14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near,
  and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:
  the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
  
  15 That day is
  
  a day of wrath,
  a day of trouble and distress,
  a day of wasteness and desolation,
  a day of darkness and gloominess,
  a day of clouds and thick darkness,
  16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
  
  17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
  
  18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. KJV

I know,,,isnt it exciting...... :yes

 

[Ret]

I know,,,isnt it exciting...... :yes

.... :amen .... :amen

 

[whirlwind]

WW... how do you read Rev 22:11..?

I see the verse in Revelation being a separation in the wicked, righteous and elect - the filthy and unjust, the righteous, the holy.

• * Malachi 3:8 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, and between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.
  
  4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

To me, in order for this to be done....all souls, the wicked, the righteous and the elect are all changed to spirit bodies. I see the "day that cometh" as the Lord's day...the millennium.

• Zeph 1:14-18
  
  14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near,
  and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:
  the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
  
  15 That day is
  
  a day of wrath,
  a day of trouble and distress,
  a day of wasteness and desolation,
  a day of darkness and gloominess,
  a day of clouds and thick darkness,
  16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
  
  17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
  
  18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. KJV

Zephaniah 2:1-3 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. See ye the LORD all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Do you believe the day of the Lord, which I see as the millennium, is the same day of the Lord's anger?

 

[Ret]

Zephaniah 2:1-3 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. See ye the LORD all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Do you believe the day of the Lord, which I see as the millennium, is the same day of the Lord's anger?

Within the sequence of events the millennium and the 'day of the Lord's anger' are during the same time. Whether I see the millennium as you see it...? close perhaps. I do think/see the term 'millennium' more figurative and symbolic... like 'forever'.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by NIGHTMARE

Do you not understand it was a earth age before this one?????????

Indeed I do. But that does not mean Jesus was referring to descending from our original home in Heaven to be born through the womb of a woman when He was speaking to Nicodemus.

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I would consider being born through the womb of a woman to be of the "flesh", wouldn't you?

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

John 3:14,15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

Do you truly believe Jesus is speaking about "we" coming down from our previous abode in Heaven and being born through the womb of a woman? You're thinking is reversed. You're speaking of "spirit to flesh", Jesus was speaking of "flesh to spirit".

What benefit to our fellow brothers and sisters would it be to know that we were once living in Heaven in the spirit, and we had to (by choice) descend to Earth and be born in the flesh, or else we could not receive eternal life? That's a foregone conclusion. What would be profitable about knowing that? Everyone who made that decision is either here or not, or will be here, or will not be; and we can't change the minds of those who choose NOT to descend from Heaven and be born of woman in the flesh, because we can't communicate with them. So what would be the benefit if this was in fact what Jesus was teaching? None. Your interpretation of this is incorrect, and your logic is flawed. Jesus was speaking of believing on Him, allowing the birth of the Spirit of God within us; thus transforming us into sons of God who live in the Spirit.