The "Debate" that's not a Debate

[VirginShallConceive]

God is not sitting around wringing his hands and hoping someone will make a decision for Jesus so he can help them. He is Jesus Christ the LORD and Saviour reigning on his throne right now. He didn't TRY to save anyone. HE SAVED all his people whom he choose before the world was or a star twinkled in the sky.

He is not a gentleman, your friend, a co-piliot or helper.

HE IS God almighty and he came to earth to shed his blood for his choosen people.
He choose them, paid for their sins in blood and is the Soverign God of creation.

Don't waste my time by claiming it's your decision or work or will.

That's funny. The most intelligent minds in the world share none of your views at all. You're just making an extraordinary claim that lacks any coherent explanation. You are not wasting my time. You are very entertaining.

There is NO DEBATE at all.

I agree. There is as much debate about this as there is debate that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

And make no mistake . . . your ramblings are equal to that of the ones who assert that the Sun revolves around the Earth.



Period.

Either you belong to him by his choice, power, and might or you do not.

How are you so sure that you belong to Him?

Scary thought, isn't it?

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[mondar]

While I am to a degree Reformed. I attend and am a member of a Reformed Baptist Church and would affirm nearly the entire 1689, I am not inclined to defend the OP. While I know the writer of the OP is a brother in the Lord, it seemed more like rambling than a coherent defense of what Calvinists believe.

WIP, I am willing to make a post or maybe even a few posts to answer some of the questions you post below, if you wish. Of course I would expect that you would desire to reply to my posts. However, I am wondering if your questions are rhetorical? Or if they are bonifide questions? Or maybe just questions intended to direct the conversation toward proper doctrinal issues that relate to the differences between Reformed and non-reformed people?

Also, before I answer your questions (if you reply) I do want to point out an error in your first statement. When you say.... "If God made the decision to save me long before the world was created and my will has no effect on my salvation then..."
While certainly Calvinists believe that God made the decision to save me long before the world was created.
Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
or, God ordained us to become "holy and without blemish" and this was to happen by
7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,. So yes, I would agree that Calvinists, and the Bible teach that redemption, or salvation was predetermined before the foundation of the world.

One the other hand, the 2nd part of your statement is that "my will has no effect on my salvation." I am not sure why Calvinists are so commonly misrepresented as not believing in human will. Both the Westminster and the 1689 speak of the exercise of the will in faith. That the will is related to salvation is standard Reformed doctrine." The Reformed issue is not the exercise of the will, but the question of why the choices that are made by the will are chosen.

I would say that the differences are not in human will, but in human nature. Reformed doctrine sees human nature as affected by Original Sin. So then, our will is under the slavery of Original sin, or it is under sin and the flesh.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
The death spoken of in Romans 5 is not merely physical death, but this is also a spiritual death. It is the same death as spoken of in Ephesians 2:1.
2 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
The death spoken of in Romans 5 is "dead through your trespasses and sins." It is a spiritual death. The result of this spiritual death is that we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.
1 Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. In other words, we cannot receive the gospel because of our nature, and because of Original sin, because of sin nature. This is why John 6:44 says... "44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Notice in that verse "No man can come to me." There in is sin nature, this is the result of original sin. However, God chose to draw some. God sovereignty chose some in eternity past, and now in space/time and history he draws those chosen ones.

Yes, I know this doctrine is offensive. It states we are all in rebellion. Common objections are usually based upon the assumption that God does not have the right to judge anyone without offering him a chance. Yet in a sense, everyone has a chance because there is a revelation of God in nature.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Notice the end of Romans 1:20. "without excuse." Because of natural revelation, all are without excuse. Romans 1 goes on to speak of mankinds rejection of natural revelation, and then by Revelation 3:19 the conclusion comes....
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
Every mouth is stopped, everyone is under the judgment of God, we are all as Romans 1:20 says, "without excuse." As John 6:44 says that if it were not for the special drawing of God, no one would come. Our faith is then not the work of our own rebellious, depraved, sinful nature. Faith is then the work of God in man, not the work of man for God. Notice in Phil 1:29, faith is something granted by God. Also, suffering is granted by God. So then, God is not only the sovereign source of faith, but also the sovereign source of trials of faith.
29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

Above is a positive statement of where I am. It is Reformed soteriology. I appreciated your questions below. I think they are good questions and I am willing to answer them (but not in this first post). I also think it is possible that you do not want me to answer the questions, but would prefer the person who wrote the OP. I know you did address the questions to him. And that would be fine if that is your choice. But if you want me to answer the questions, please let me know if they are rhetorical, or bonifide. And also please recognize that in Reformed Theology, we do believe the will is exercised in faith, and that this exercise of our will happens because of the work of God in us.

I have a question, well, actually a few. If God made the decision to save me long before the world was created and my will has no effect on my salvation then...
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Adam to disobey?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for sin to exist?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to command his 600+ laws to Israel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to give us the ten commandments?
Why did he choose to make it necessary (because it is not my choice) for me to sin?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to die that I might be saved and what then am I saved from if my destiny is already chosen?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to be born at all?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for me to hear the Gospel to be saved?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to preach the Gospel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to preach the Gospel to all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to baptize all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to be baptized?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to believe?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me that I must repent?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for most to be lost?

I can probably come up with more questions but I'll stop here.

 

[Danus]

I think what the OP is trying to point out is the sovereignty of God; meaning the power of God.

This is an interesting topic, and even more so when we couple it with the sovereignty of man. Obviously, and few would argue, God is far more powerful than man kind. However, to what degree? To what extent does man's sovereignty relate to that of God's? How does God and man work together? Do they? Can they? How are they each limited?

There seems to be this theological puzzle regarding the mans free will, his ability to choose God, in relation to God's perfect will and love for man. I don't know why that is, but it is in the hearts and minds of many.

We like to think of ourselves as free agents with the ability to choose good or evil, just like Adam and Eve, but we are not like Adam and Eve in this respect; at least not in the pre-fallen state Adam and Eve where before the fall.

This is an important issue that seems to escape many, but the OP is pointing it out, and rightly so, albeit someone forcefully, and in so doing has offended the will of people wanting to cling to an idea that they choose God in some way, or are working in cooperation with God for Gods perfect will. Trouble is, that's not what we get from the gospel. That's not what God says of man, or of Himself.

The puzzle for many is, If God truly controls everything, how can humans have free will? It is obvious from Scripture and from life that people do have free will. We are not robots. We make both good and bad choices. However, we misunderstand our own free will and our ability to make a choice. We think we are making choices without realizing that our choices are directly influenced by our DESIRES, and our desire is to sin. IT IS. It is, because we are by nature fallen.

This is why we are turning from sin, obstaning from willful sins in our lives, praying that we are not tempted, asking for forgiveness and seeking redemption; WHY? Because we are sinners by nature, and we are limited to the Glory and righteousness of God by our nature, which is sin. This is the truth of man. This is what the bible clearly says, over and over and over, about man kind.

So, if we are sinful by nature, and our desire is to sin, what possible choice, motivated from our desire, could we possibly make to be with God, who is perfectly righteous by His nature? NONE! Not without being first called by God, which is to say, CHOSEN by God, which thew bible clearly says followers of Christ are.

SO then, the next part of that puzzle is, who is chosen? Who is not? are not all chosen? If God is so powerful why not just save all?

The Holy Spirit prompts the human heart to choose God, a good choice. But, In the examples of King David and the Apostle Paul, God also works with man's bad choices to turn lives around towards Him. This is true to many who follow Christ, who can point to a clear conversion from their old self, to a new self. But, not everyone seems to have this type of conversion in their lives, and instead see themselves in some sort of co-operation with God in their redemption.

Regardless, of how ones sees their salvation and Gods work, The ugly truth is that sinful human beings (Which we all are) deserve nothing from a holy God. We cannot manipulate God in prayer. We can not ever measure up to God, or be clean enough in our lives for God. We cannot expect a rich, pain-free life, as touted by the prosperity gospel. Neither can we expect to reach heaven because we are a "good person." Jesus Christ has been provided to us as the way to heaven. (John 14:6)

Part of God's sovereignty is that despite our unworthiness, He chooses to love and save us anyway. He gives everyone the freedom to accept or reject his love, but we do so by our own desire, and that is the extent of anyone's free will.

 

[WIP]

While I am to a degree Reformed. I attend and am a member of a Reformed Baptist Church and would affirm nearly the entire 1689, I am not inclined to defend the OP. While I know the writer of the OP is a brother in the Lord, it seemed more like rambling than a coherent defense of what Calvinists believe.

WIP, I am willing to make a post or maybe even a few posts to answer some of the questions you post below, if you wish. Of course I would expect that you would desire to reply to my posts. However, I am wondering if your questions are rhetorical? Or if they are bonifide questions? Or maybe just questions intended to direct the conversation toward proper doctrinal issues that relate to the differences between Reformed and non-reformed people?

Also, before I answer your questions (if you reply) I do want to point out an error in your first statement. When you say.... "If God made the decision to save me long before the world was created and my will has no effect on my salvation then..."
While certainly Calvinists believe that God made the decision to save me long before the world was created.
Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
or, God ordained us to become "holy and without blemish" and this was to happen by
7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,. So yes, I would agree that Calvinists, and the Bible teach that redemption, or salvation was predetermined before the foundation of the world.

One the other hand, the 2nd part of your statement is that "my will has no effect on my salvation." I am not sure why Calvinists are so commonly misrepresented as not believing in human will. Both the Westminster and the 1689 speak of the exercise of the will in faith. That the will is related to salvation is standard Reformed doctrine." The Reformed issue is not the exercise of the will, but the question of why the choices that are made by the will are chosen.

I would say that the differences are not in human will, but in human nature. Reformed doctrine sees human nature as affected by Original Sin. So then, our will is under the slavery of Original sin, or it is under sin and the flesh.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
The death spoken of in Romans 5 is not merely physical death, but this is also a spiritual death. It is the same death as spoken of in Ephesians 2:1.
2 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
The death spoken of in Romans 5 is "dead through your trespasses and sins." It is a spiritual death. The result of this spiritual death is that we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.
1 Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. In other words, we cannot receive the gospel because of our nature, and because of Original sin, because of sin nature. This is why John 6:44 says... "44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Notice in that verse "No man can come to me." There in is sin nature, this is the result of original sin. However, God chose to draw some. God sovereignty chose some in eternity past, and now in space/time and history he draws those chosen ones.

Yes, I know this doctrine is offensive. It states we are all in rebellion. Common objections are usually based upon the assumption that God does not have the right to judge anyone without offering him a chance. Yet in a sense, everyone has a chance because there is a revelation of God in nature.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Notice the end of Romans 1:20. "without excuse." Because of natural revelation, all are without excuse. Romans 1 goes on to speak of mankinds rejection of natural revelation, and then by Revelation 3:19 the conclusion comes....
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
Every mouth is stopped, everyone is under the judgment of God, we are all as Romans 1:20 says, "without excuse." As John 6:44 says that if it were not for the special drawing of God, no one would come. Our faith is then not the work of our own rebellious, depraved, sinful nature. Faith is then the work of God in man, not the work of man for God. Notice in Phil 1:29, faith is something granted by God. Also, suffering is granted by God. So then, God is not only the sovereign source of faith, but also the sovereign source of trials of faith.
29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

Above is a positive statement of where I am. It is Reformed soteriology. I appreciated your questions below. I think they are good questions and I am willing to answer them (but not in this first post). I also think it is possible that you do not want me to answer the questions, but would prefer the person who wrote the OP. I know you did address the questions to him. And that would be fine if that is your choice. But if you want me to answer the questions, please let me know if they are rhetorical, or bonifide. And also please recognize that in Reformed Theology, we do believe the will is exercised in faith, and that this exercise of our will happens because of the work of God in us.

I have a question, well, actually a few. If God made the decision to save me long before the world was created and my will has no effect on my salvation then...
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Adam to disobey?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for sin to exist?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to command his 600+ laws to Israel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to give us the ten commandments?
Why did he choose to make it necessary (because it is not my choice) for me to sin?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to die that I might be saved and what then am I saved from if my destiny is already chosen?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to be born at all?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for me to hear the Gospel to be saved?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for Jesus to preach the Gospel?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to preach the Gospel to all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to baptize all nations?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to be baptized?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me to believe?
Why did he choose to make it necessary to tell me that I must repent?
Why did he choose to make it necessary for most to be lost?

I can probably come up with more questions but I'll stop here.

Thank you for your response. I will probably have to read it a few times to grasp what you posted.

My purpose for asking my questions was indeed to try to steer the thread. I must admit that when it comes to predestination doctrine vs free will doctrine I find it very confusing. Quite honestly I think the answer lies somewhere between these two extremes. I don't dwell on it because I don't see how understanding it has any bearing on my salvation but it would be nice to be able to come to some kind of conclusion at any rate. I don't think it is necessary to fully understand everything in scripture because I believe that if it is really important God will reveal to us what we need to know and when we need to know it.

I also believe that we often try to explain Godly things in human terms and that is not even possible. The topic is interesting and I like to read through what others have to say but I am not in a position of understanding or conclusion that would allow me to engage in a debate one way or the other. If a question comes to me I will certainly post.

 

[josefnospam]

Most of what calvinism says happens to be true.........But it cannot save you. I believe in Jesus Christ alone and his complete mercy and Grace.

 

[josefnospam]

Again, theology can not save anyone. A person can have all the correct theology ideas, do things well and appear to be quite sound in doctrine. But if the Lord has not given them his spirit they will perish. Only Christ the Lord can save and we can only praise him for his perfect and compleated work now and forever. We, his elect blood bought choosen people can only give him all the praise, honor and glory as he allows us to do so. I know I will fail, and fall short of his glory but he will never fail. One thing is certain. We are ALL sinners and he is the Saviuor. WE , his people can rest secure in his work and cease from ours and that is something that those who insist on doing something to improve or help him, or try to please him to gain favor cannot ever know , unless he opens thier eyes and gives them his spirit.
I get online once and awhile. People hate the truth and want to argue and quote endless scriptures, and this is not profitable for me or them. You are either his or you are not. I am one of his elected children and am bound to speak only of his mercy and grace and give him ALL the honor, glory and praise due him in the name that is above all names......Jesus CHRIST the LORD.

 

[reba]

......I am one of his elected children and am bound to speak only of his mercy and grace and give him ALL the honor, glory and praise due him in the name that is above all names......Jesus CHRIST the LORD.

How do you know this?

 

[josefnospam]

Good advice to not attempt to judge anyone for their beliefs. WE don't know for sure who is and is not a child of God. Or who may become his later on.
We don't want to offend anyone who may be his. Those who are not his are offended anyway. All that can be done is declare his truth as he allows and he will save his people as he wills,for we cannot save anyone. But also we can not water down or change or shy away from the gospil truth. Declare his word faithfully and pray that his spirit leads. There is no other way.

 

[Eventide]

Most of what calvinism says happens to be true

I certainly disagree with this..

Especially with respect to ELECTION.

The Lord Jesus Christ (alone) is the ELECT OF GOD, the CHOSEN ONE in whom the Father delights. Matthew 12:18 teaches this as plain as day and it's a direct quote from Isaiah 42. All who do believe on Him are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (after they believe) and therefore become the elect by virtue of being IN CHRIST.

There are multitudes of verses in the scriptures which support this... simple things like if any man comes to me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross, and follow Me... or how that I am crucified with Christ and yet I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.. or how about how we're to PUT OFF our old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on CHRIST. How about I must DECREASE, and He must INCREASE...

It's baffling to me how so many in Christ can be led to believe (by their teachers) that THEY are the ELECT OF GOD... and not only that... but that it's unconditional..

Calvinism teaches that it's Christ AND me..

The Bible teaches that it's Christ IN me..

A world of difference to say the least.

People go on and on about WHO the elect are when it's so simple... the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God and if you're in Him, then you are the elect of God because HE IS, not because YOU are.

.........But it cannot save you. I believe in Jesus Christ alone and his complete mercy and Grace.

I agree, only the Lord Jesus Christ can save, and we must believe on Him to be saved.

 

[josefnospam]

I seldom quote scriptures but here goes. If all men are spiritually dead how then can that person make a choice for God who is a spirit. No one will seek God. None do good.. Romans 3 verse 10 thru 18 says it best. This is a quote from plsm 14. The scriptures says "there is NONE rightous no not ONE. There is NONE that seeketh God. There is NONE that does good. If NONE seek God who then will be saved. Romans 9 verse 15 and 16 . I quote
"I will have mercy on him I will have mercy. Verse 16 says "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth but of GOD that showeth Mercy. God did not die for all the sins of mankind. If he did so no one would ever go to hell. But men refuse and question God saying he's unfair or we are robots. Verse 21, 22 , and 23
pretty much sums it up. We are not robots but we are taken from the pit of death and given life, IF HE choose you and gave you his spirit. I pray that he has. One thing is for sure...WE are all sinners and need a Saviour. Jesus Christ alone is that most holy and perfect saviour, and I think him daily for his spirit.

 

[Free]

One final thought. My postion is not the issue or the problem. I believe in Jesus Christ the Lord and if led by his spirit declare his truth. I have none of my own and am dependent upon him for his truths.

It is your position though. I've heard the claim numerous times in these forums alone, that someone only relies on the Holy Spirit and is only led by the Spirit, not being dependent on "man's interpretations," etc. The problem is that they all contradict each other. God expects us to use the rational minds he gave us to think through and sort through all of what Scripture says.

 

[Eventide]

I seldom quote scriptures but here goes. If all men are spiritually dead how then can that person make a choice for God who is a spirit. No one will seek God.

The good news is that Christ came TO SEEK and to SAVE the lost... and as you know, He's more than abel.. (pun intended)..

People do NOT make a choice for God... the scriptures teach plainly that men hear the gospel and then trust in Christ because of the evidence... that's what CONVICTION is based upon... evidence.. and the evidence is overwhelming.. and of course that's what faith is... the substance of what is hoped for, the evidence of that which is unseen, or not yet realized.

THEN, when a person does trust in Christ, it is God alone who knows the heart and He alone seals that faith by giving us the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance unto the day of redemption and unto the praise of His glory.

 

[josefnospam]

Eventide............You make some good points. It is Christ in you. That is the only way. BUT the big question is how do you get Christ to give you his Spirit.? Answer...YOU CAN"T You can't make God do anything and he's not obligated to me or you or anyone. He's GOD ALMIGHTY.
By your works, by your decision, by following the Law, by doing good. How can a man improve on the finished perfect work of God. We are not under the law but under grace ( Romans 6:14) and I thank God he does have a choosen blood bought people. I rest in him and I hope you also belong to him through his Mecry and HIS grace. Who will believe? All those he gives the faith to do so. It is not dependant on you but on God who shows great mercy to his people. Even so at this present time also there is a remant acording to the ELECTION OF GRACE. Finally, calvin, or any other theology or doctrine can ever save you. Jesus Christ the Lord is the only way. Trust him alone. Thank you for your post......

 

[Obadiah]

want to argue and quote endless scriptures, and this is not profitable for me or them.

And I think herein lies a major problem. According to your own words you want us all to believe what you say over and above scripture because quoting scripture isn't profitable for you. This is a major error. Since I then have to choose between your words and God's words, I will choose God's words of scripture, such as the following:

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2nd Tim 3:16)

 

[josefnospam]

Wip thank you for your posts. I don't need to defend God's word. I would fail badly. But I have a question. What is this OP?
I am often accused of following Calvin. I do not. I follow and trust in Jesus Christ and him crucified. May he bless you with his spirit as only he can do.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide............You make some good points.

Perhaps you can respond to them rather than saying they're good points.

What part of this verse leads you to believe that YOU are the elect rather than the infinitely glorious Lord Jesus Christ?

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

Where are YOU in this verse and where is Christ ?

The answers should be obvious..

It is Christ in you. That is the only way. BUT the big question is how do you get Christ to give you his Spirit.? Answer...YOU CAN"T You can't make God do anything and he's not obligated to me or you or anyone. He's GOD ALMIGHTY.

There are some things which God almighty can NOT do... and that is lie. So if His word says that He hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, then He absolutely IS obligated to SAVE a person when they believe and trust in Him... otherwise He would be a liar and that's obviously not the case.

Let God be true and all men be liars.

By your works, by your decision, by following the Law, by doing good. How can a man improve on the finished perfect work of God.

Who mentioned anything about being under the Law or improving the finished work of God. Don't you believe the scriptures which ask what must I DO to be saved ?

We are not under the law but under grace ( Romans 6:14) and I thank God he does have a choosen blood bought people. I rest in him and I hope you also belong to him through his Mecry and HIS grace. Who will believe? All those he gives the faith to do so. It is not dependant on you but on God who shows great mercy to his people. Even so at this present time also there is a remant acording to the ELECTION OF GRACE. Finally, calvin, or any other theology or doctrine can ever save you. Jesus Christ the Lord is the only way. Trust him alone. Thank you for your post......

That's right, all who trust in Christ are the chosen of God because that is what He determined before you and I took our first breath.

 

[josefnospam]

wip........... No one can keep the Law perfectly. It shows us how much we sin. Trying to keep the law always ends up exposing your sin. but God's people are no longer under the curse of the law but under the grace of God. We will fail, and try and fail and try but once we are under grace we longer try but trust in his finished work. We are sinners that can never please God but his son pleased him and is our rightousness. We can rest in him, cease from trying to please him and trust Christ. Do we sin? YES! But we have a saviour who covers all our sins. SO>>>>>>>>>>>>we reliaze we are sinners, and trust that he will lead us with his spirit all the way through to his glory. We die daily in the flesh, wishing and trying not to sin, aogonizing, when we do but trusting him. . O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of death. In us (the flesh ,is NO GOOD THING) but we are in Jesus Christ if he has giving you his spirit. I therefore can rest from my work and trust in his.

Blessings from the most high God who is Jesus Christ.

 

[josefnospam]

Eventide.........When does anyone trust in And seek him or does ANY good? What can a man do in the flesh that pleases God?

Romans 3:10 through 12 and this is a quote from Plsm 14:1 through 3
Romans 8:8

Now...if NONE seek him and NONE are rightous how then does anyone come to him.

HE choose and predestinated all whom he would die for. He did this before the world was founded. Ephesians 1:4 We are predestinated acording to his purpose and his will. Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11
We were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1 and Ephesians 2:5 The whole world is in a state of spiritial deadness and we were children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3 He choose those, he would save, came to the earth to die for their sins, paid the price in full and saves them by his grace.
Ephesians 2:8 not of works least ANY MAN boast Ephensians 2:9 All your works are as dung and are as filthy rags. his works are perfect.

God is Soverign and does with his creation what he wants. Some are made to be vessels of honor and some are made to be vessels of dis-honor endured and fitted to destruction Romans 9:21 thru 23

God has mercy on whom he chooses....Romans 9:18
It is not of him who willeth or him who runneth but of God that showeth mercy Romans 9:16
God's elect are precious in his eyes and who can lay anything to their charge Romans 9:33

All men do not have a choice...Take pharoh, and Jacob and Esau, and Judas and
many others. Who were the men who crept in unawares who were ordained to this condimnation in Jude verse 4. What choice did they have?
Election might stand not of works but of him who calls Romans 9:11
But even at this present time there is a rement according to the election of grace Romans 11;5
God has blided the eyes of many as Isiah says John 12:38 thru 41
To come to him must be given John 6:37
We are not born again by our will but his John 1:13
He does not recieve honor from men John 6:41
We didn't choose him. He chose us and ordained us. John 15:16
Therer are so very many other scriptures about God's elect and his soverign grace but here are a few.
Jesus Christ is God's son and he the father poured out his wrath on him in our place. When he comes again he will be angry at all flesh and will punish them.
If he hasen't choosen you to recieve his spirit you will perish. You better get down on your kness , admit how helpless you are and beg him for his mercy. Who knows if he will have mercy upon you. But to say you had ANY part in his Salvation plan makes him an ineffective helpless god who must wait upon you before he can do anything. Thank God he has choosen a people and will save them despite their sins. He is Jesus Christ the Lord and Saviour of all his peopel and he will not fail to save even one because they didn't let him. He is God all mighty and he's coming again in his time. What can you do to change his mind. how can the creature say to the maker why am I this way or that. I believe him and there is no other way . Bottom line.........We all need a saviour and men every where Hate it that they can't do anything but believe in him as he allows. Trust and rest in him alone and never ANYTHING you do. His spirit he gives his people is the ONLY way. Give him all the praise and honor.
Knowing, brethren beloved your election of God.........................1 thess.1:4
We are bound to give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God has choosen you to salvation through santiffication of the spirit and belief of the truth...........2 Thess.2;13 I hope he has given you his spirit as only he can do. All scriptures are KJV.

 

[n2thelight]

One final thought. My postion is not the issue or the problem. I believe in Jesus Christ the Lord and if led by his spirit declare his truth. I have none of my own and am dependent upon him for his truths. If Im wrong God have mercy upon me but if I am right may he have Mecry upon you and many who ponder these things. He is faithfull and cannot lie or fail. But the purpose of this post is not to debate but rather to declare God's wonderfull salvation based on what he does, has done and will do. You can attack the messenger all day long but the message remains the same. Jesus Christ the Lord is Saviour of all his people. I thank him and stand in his debt, which I can never repay. That is HIS mercy and HIS grace. Thank God he has a choosen elected people. Anything that honors men, does not honor God and takes our eyes off him and focuses on us. May this never be the case

Soooo technically speaking,you don't know if He chose you or not!!!!!!!