The "Debate" that's not a Debate

[Eventide]

Because you appear to be ignoring my previous comments I'll assume that you have no answers for them.

Eventide.........When does anyone trust in And seek him or does ANY good? What can a man do in the flesh that pleases God?

I already told you... the good news is that Christ came to SEEK and to SAVE us... nobody went seeking Him, He came to us.. this is fundamental gospel truth.

And it's the power of the gospel of God's Son which produces faith, and faith is what pleases God.

Paul's entire mission was summed up in preaching the gospel and for all men to show repentance TOWARD GOD and faith TOWARD the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, this is fundamental stuff here.

Romans 3:10 through 12 and this is a quote from Plsm 14:1 through 3
Romans 8:8

Now...if NONE seek him and NONE are rightous how then does anyone come to him.

I'll say it again, through the power of the gospel of God concerning His Son.

HE choose and predestinated all whom he would die for. He did this before the world was founded.

Wrong again, John writes that He died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 says nothing about God choosing individuals... it is written to the church of God and speaks of being chosen IN CHRIST... not because you are some lucky one who did absolutely nothing and happened to be picked.

Ephesians 1:4 We are predestinated acording to his purpose and his will. Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11
We were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1 and Ephesians 2:5 The whole world is in a state of spiritial deadness and we were children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3 He choose those, he would save, came to the earth to die for their sins, paid the price in full and saves them by his grace.
Ephesians 2:8 not of works least ANY MAN boast Ephensians 2:9 All your works are as dung and are as filthy rags. his works are perfect.

Wow, you say He chose those He would save and died for them only..? To that I'd suggest that you stop listening to those who say these things and start going by what the word of God actually does say... things like He died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world. That's biblical, it's the word of God.

I suppose that this type of thinking sits well with some folks. Perhaps they need to feel as though they're special and have been chosen by God for absolutely no reason at all.. that's what unconditional election teaches and many just eat it up as if it's the truth.

God is Soverign and does with his creation what he wants. Some are made to be vessels of honor and some are made to be vessels of dis-honor endured and fitted to destruction Romans 9:21 thru 23

Romans 9-11 is within the context of the nation of Israel.. and Rom 9 has nothing to do with salvation of individuals. If you'd like to see what Paul writes about individual salvation, then go to chapter 10 where he plainly says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be SAVED.

As for the rest of your commentary, I can see that you've bought into the teaching that YOU are the elect of God.

So it's God's infinitely glorious Son AND you... and whoever else is lucky enough to be chosen unconditionally without repentance or faith toward God.

It's a good subject and my only hope is that people can see that the Lord Jesus Christ is the ELECT of God, the Chosen One in Whom the Father delights. Although if people would like to believe that they're on that same plane with the glorious Son of God.. then perhaps more time in the word of God will show them otherwise.

 

[mondar]

Re: What must I do to be saved...?

I think that much of this comes from false teaching... young Christians being taught that God chose THEM and that there is nothing that a person must do to be saved........

Eventide, first, it would be much better not to throw around the term "false teaching." All that does is crank up the emotional rhetoric. I could care less if you think Calvinists are heretics. We have been called worse before this. I have seen way too much of the "evil Calvinist boogie man" rhetoric, and it regularly comes from people who commonly misrepresent Reformed theology and set up a straw man as you have done.

Your straw man is that Calvinists do not teach that there is anything a person should do to be saved. Of course Calvinists tell men what to do. We call all men to believe. The average person in a Calvinist Church is far more evangelistic to all men then the average person in a non-Calvinist Church. In fact the doctrine of sola fide was first preached by the Reformation people. Common Calvinist people spread that doctrine all over Europe. A simple knowledge of history would cause one to recognize the error of your false accusation that Calvinist say a person must do nothing to be saved.

Eventide, your post was disappointing. I hope we can move past such unpleasantness as the name calling (false teaching) and the common straw men.

First of all... that's conditional.. these are God's conditions for choosing any person to be saved... sanctification of the Spirit and believing the truth..

This is a complete misreading of Ephesians 1:3-4. In Ephesians 1:3-4 does not say that a person must first put themselves into Christ before God will choose them in eternity past. That is not a correct way to read the phrase "in Christ" in Ephesians 1:4.
The phrase "in Christ" in verse 4 is merely a repetition of the same phrase found in verse 3. Verse 3 tells us that Christ is the source of spiritual blessings.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Verse 3 is not saying that we must conditionally get our own "every spiritual blessing" before we can be "in Christ." That is obvious. Since the phrase does not cause us to see the blessings of verse 3 conditionally, why would we read it in verse 4 that way.

Christ did the work of bringing spiritual blessings to us in verse 3, and Christ did the work of having us be "in him" in verse 4 and thus be a part of the chosen ones.

What must I do to be saved ?

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

That's conditional.. and it's not up for debate... because it's the simple truth of the word of God..

However, if people are going to continue to insist that God chose them unconditionally then imo it's simply because they refuse to hear the simple truth of the word of God.

Faith is a condition of justification, but faith is never a condition of election in the bible. There is a great difference. Election takes place in eternity past, justification takes place during our lives in space time. (I recognize that some believe that justification takes place at the cross but would prefer that the discussion on the time of justification take place elsewhere please).

Nowhere does the scripture assert that we believe in order to be elected. The scriptures assert that we believe in order to be saved. Your whole idea that election is conditional is based upon the scriptural call to faith that Christians are to give to all men everywhere. That call to believe is not to call them to election, but to call them to salvation. Faith is the condition for salvation.

In confusing the conditions for election and justification, you destroy a proper order. Faith is the condition for salvation, and election is the condition for faith. God chose some and gave them faith.
Php 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:
God granted us faith, we did not come up with it ourselves. We do have faith, the faith is ours, it is an exercise of our own will, but it is granted by God only to the elect.

 

[Eventide]

Re: What must I do to be saved...?

I think that much of this comes from false teaching... young Christians being taught that God chose THEM and that there is nothing that a person must do to be saved........

Eventide, first, it would be much better not to throw around the term "false teaching." All that does is crank up the emotional rhetoric. I could care less if you think Calvinists are heretics. We have been called worse before this. I have seen way too much of the "evil Calvinist boogie man" rhetoric, and it regularly comes from people who commonly misrepresent Reformed theology and set up a straw man as you have done.

Your straw man is that Calvinists do not teach that there is anything a person should do to be saved. Of course Calvinists tell men what to do. We call all men to believe. The average person in a Calvinist Church is far more evangelistic to all men then the average person in a non-Calvinist Church. In fact the doctrine of sola fide was first preached by the Reformation people. Common Calvinist people spread that doctrine all over Europe. A simple knowledge of history would cause one to recognize the error of your false accusation that Calvinist say a person must do nothing to be saved.

Eventide, your post was disappointing. I hope we can move past such unpleasantness as the name calling (false teaching) and the common straw men.

First of all... that's conditional.. these are God's conditions for choosing any person to be saved... sanctification of the Spirit and believing the truth..

This is a complete misreading of Ephesians 1:3-4. In Ephesians 1:3-4 does not say that a person must first put themselves into Christ before God will choose them in eternity past. That is not a correct way to read the phrase "in Christ" in Ephesians 1:4.
The phrase "in Christ" in verse 4 is merely a repetition of the same phrase found in verse 3. Verse 3 tells us that Christ is the source of spiritual blessings.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Verse 3 is not saying that we must conditionally get our own "every spiritual blessing" before we can be "in Christ." That is obvious. Since the phrase does not cause us to see the blessings of verse 3 conditionally, why would we read it in verse 4 that way.

Christ did the work of bringing spiritual blessings to us in verse 3, and Christ did the work of having us be "in him" in verse 4 and thus be a part of the chosen ones.

What must I do to be saved ?

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

That's conditional.. and it's not up for debate... because it's the simple truth of the word of God..

However, if people are going to continue to insist that God chose them unconditionally then imo it's simply because they refuse to hear the simple truth of the word of God.

Faith is a condition of justification, but faith is never a condition of election in the bible. There is a great difference. Election takes place in eternity past, justification takes place during our lives in space time. (I recognize that some believe that justification takes place at the cross but would prefer that the discussion on the time of justification take place elsewhere please).

Nowhere does the scripture assert that we believe in order to be elected. The scriptures assert that we believe in order to be saved. Your whole idea that election is conditional is based upon the scriptural call to faith that Christians are to give to all men everywhere. That call to believe is not to call them to election, but to call them to salvation. Faith is the condition for salvation.

In confusing the conditions for election and justification, you destroy a proper order. Faith is the condition for salvation, and election is the condition for faith. God chose some and gave them faith.
Php 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:
God granted us faith, we did not come up with it ourselves. We do have faith, the faith is ours, it is an exercise of our own will, but it is granted by God only to the elect.

You call it a straw man and yet agree with precisely what I stated, that God chose YOU. That You are the chosen of God along with His only begotten Son.

This isn't complicated even though you may make it out to be.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God. It's a fundamental biblical fact. All who believe in Him and who trust in His precious shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins are justified by placing their faith and trust in Him, another fundamental biblical fact that most children can understand.

God seals the faith of the believer with His Holy Spirit of promise and they immediately become a member of the body of Christ... And this is when they become the elect of God, when they are miraculously baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Our old man still exists but he certainly is not the elect of God, Christ in me is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom the Father delights. In fact, according to Paul the old man is already dead and crucified with Christ.. And nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.

The simple and glorious doctrine of election, completely centered upon Christ and Christ alone.

Men will continue to believe that God chose them too, regardless of the mountains of biblical evidence against that.. You're welcome to believe that obviously.

It's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me, my hope of glory.

 

[Eventide]

Mondar, correct me if I'm wrong on this... This is one thing I gleaned from your post.

You believe that Election is unconditional, but that salvation is conditional. Is that right?

You believe that a person is elected and chosen by God in eternity past, unconditionally, but then when it comes time for the experience of salvation in the believer, that this part of it is conditional upon their believing in God..

Am I following you ?

A person does not need to do anything to be elected or chosen by God, but they do need to believe in order to be saved by God.

 

[WIP]

The good news is that Christ came TO SEEK and to SAVE the lost...

I think this statement brings up a good point. If only the elect are saved and they have been predestined for such purpose then who are the lost that Jesus came to seek and save?

Here's what I have concluded or come to understand at this point in my life. Scriptures most certainly speak of election and predestination. Therefore, it must true. Scripture also teaches about man's need to impart an action, ergo believe, trust, obey, ... Scripture speaks about how imparting these actions are a condition of salvation.

From Matthew 7 we have the following which I believe quite obviously points to man making a choice. If those that find the narrow gate are predestined to do so, there would be no need to "find it" as they would already know the way.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

When Christ chose his 12 disciples he didn't ask them to follow him, He told them to follow him. I believe they were predestined for that purpose. They were then commanded to go and teach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Those whom the disciples evangelized may not have been predestined for salvation but rather accepted the gift that came through Jesus Christ. It has become my contention that for whatever reason the Father has, some are elected and predestined and others are not. Those that are not are not necessarily lost forever but have hope through the blood of Christ. If they surrender themselves and put their trust in Jesus the Christ they too can be saved.

 

[mondar]

Re: What must I do to be saved...?

You call it a straw man and yet agree with precisely what I stated, that God chose YOU. That You are the chosen of God along with His only begotten Son.

Yes, your post was a straw man. When you wrote in your previous post......

What must I do to be saved ?

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

You were implying that Calvinists do not believe that faith is necessary for justification. You were implying that Calvinist believe one must do nothing to be saved, not even believe. That is what I am speaking of as a complete straw man accusation. Why else would you feel the need to point to faith as the human requirement for justification.

That's conditional.. and it's not up for debate... because it's the simple truth of the word of God..


This isn't complicated even though you may make it out to be.

Of course here, when you say "This isn't complicated even though you may make it out to be" this is smoke screen for your errors of confusing the difference between election and justification.

Justification is by faith and there is a human requirement. Of course even that requirement is given to the elect by God's grace and so we have no claim to merit. Of course in a free will concept of the source of faith we could claim to have some merit in our salvation because we believed.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God. It's a fundamental biblical fact. All who believe in Him and who trust in His precious shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins are justified by placing their faith and trust in Him, another fundamental biblical fact that most children can understand.

While Jesus is the elect of God, and that is spoke of in other scriptures, in Ephesians 1:4 the passage is talking about the believers as the chosen ones. Another such passage would be in 2 Thes 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
In 2 Thes 2:13 God chose you from the beginning for salvation. Salvation is then dependent upon Gods choice. Again, while other passages speak of Christ as the chosen one, 2 Thes 2:13 does not speak of Christ in that way. So then Christ is the elect one of God to bring salvation, and the believer is the elect people to receive salvation.

God seals the faith of the believer with His Holy Spirit of promise and they immediately become a member of the body of Christ... And this is when they become the elect of God, when they are miraculously baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your comments here is a denial of obvious, easy to read, biblical truth. The last passage I quoted was 2nd Thes 2:13 which had the clause "he has chosen you from the beginning." This "beginning" is also spoken of in Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,... The beginning was before the foundation of the world.

Your assertion that we are chosen by God because we believe is found no where in the scripture. Where does the scriptures say that we because elect at the time when he became members of the body of Christ. Of course it does not. In fact as I mentioned, the scriptures teach election took place in eternity past.

Our old man still exists but he certainly is not the elect of God, Christ in me is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom the Father delights. In fact, according to Paul the old man is already dead and crucified with Christ.. And nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.

The paragraph above contradicts even itself. You begin by saying "Our old man still exists" and then go on to say "according to Paul the old man is dead" being crucified with Christ. Actually the 2nd part, that the old man was crucified with Christ is biblically true. Romans 6:6 teaches that.
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
The first part is error. The old man is dead, being crucified with Christ. While some might try to teach that in Colossians 2, or Ephesians 3, it implies that the old man is alive, the passage does not say that. We are to put off the old man, but the old man is not necessarily alive.

All this does not mean that we do not have a sin nature, but to make that clear would take even more space. This however, is not the topic, it is election.

The simple and glorious doctrine of election, completely centered upon Christ and Christ alone.

Men will continue to believe that God chose them too, regardless of the mountains of biblical evidence against that.. You're welcome to believe that obviously.

It's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me, my hope of glory.

"mountains of biblical evidence" : ) really, you really want to make that claim?
I have seen this claim game too much. Your presenting "mountains of biblical evidence? Really? You really want to say that?

Just go back over the posts. My posts have an awful lot of biblical references in them. Of course you will just ignore them. Yours rarely have any biblical references. I would be happy to address any you want to present. I work on explaining passages like Ephesians 1, or 2nd Thes 2.

So far, all you do is say "well the elect one is Christ." Then you read that into every text in an isogetical way.

Of course anyone reading the text of scriptures is going to see that Christ is not the elect one in passages like 2Thes 2:13. I will post it once more.
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chose who to be saved? Christ was the savior, he did not need saved. The believer is the person called "you."

Eventide, I am going to have to admit that I am soon going to quit the conversation if it remains so shallow on your part. You gotta raise the bar a little here.

 

[reba]

Amen @WIP

The more I read from the extremes on both sides of this issue the more middle of the road sounds right.

 

[gr8grace]

Re: What must I do to be saved...?

Yes, your post was a straw man. When you wrote in your previous post......


You were implying that Calvinists do not believe that faith is necessary for justification. You were implying that Calvinist believe one must do nothing to be saved, not even believe. That is what I am speaking of as a complete straw man accusation. Why else would you feel the need to point to faith as the human requirement for justification.



Of course here, when you say "This isn't complicated even though you may make it out to be" this is smoke screen for your errors of confusing the difference between election and justification.

Justification is by faith and there is a human requirement. Of course even that requirement is given to the elect by God's grace and so we have no claim to merit. Of course in a free will concept of the source of faith we could claim to have some merit in our salvation because we believed.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God. It's a fundamental biblical fact. All who believe in Him and who trust in His precious shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins are justified by placing their faith and trust in Him, another fundamental biblical fact that most children can understand.

While Jesus is the elect of God, and that is spoke of in other scriptures, in Ephesians 1:4 the passage is talking about the believers as the chosen ones. Another such passage would be in 2 Thes 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
In 2 Thes 2:13 God chose you from the beginning for salvation. Salvation is then dependent upon Gods choice. Again, while other passages speak of Christ as the chosen one, 2 Thes 2:13 does not speak of Christ in that way. So then Christ is the elect one of God to bring salvation, and the believer is the elect people to receive salvation.

God seals the faith of the believer with His Holy Spirit of promise and they immediately become a member of the body of Christ... And this is when they become the elect of God, when they are miraculously baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your comments here is a denial of obvious, easy to read, biblical truth. The last passage I quoted was 2nd Thes 2:13 which had the clause "he has chosen you from the beginning." This "beginning" is also spoken of in Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,... The beginning was before the foundation of the world.

Your assertion that we are chosen by God because we believe is found no where in the scripture. Where does the scriptures say that we because elect at the time when he became members of the body of Christ. Of course it does not. In fact as I mentioned, the scriptures teach election took place in eternity past.

Our old man still exists but he certainly is not the elect of God, Christ in me is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom the Father delights. In fact, according to Paul the old man is already dead and crucified with Christ.. And nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.

The paragraph above contradicts even itself. You begin by saying "Our old man still exists" and then go on to say "according to Paul the old man is dead" being crucified with Christ. Actually the 2nd part, that the old man was crucified with Christ is biblically true. Romans 6:6 teaches that.
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
The first part is error. The old man is dead, being crucified with Christ. While some might try to teach that in Colossians 2, or Ephesians 3, it implies that the old man is alive, the passage does not say that. We are to put off the old man, but the old man is not necessarily alive.

All this does not mean that we do not have a sin nature, but to make that clear would take even more space. This however, is not the topic, it is election.

The simple and glorious doctrine of election, completely centered upon Christ and Christ alone.

Men will continue to believe that God chose them too, regardless of the mountains of biblical evidence against that.. You're welcome to believe that obviously.

It's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me, my hope of glory.

"mountains of biblical evidence" : ) really, you really want to make that claim?
I have seen this claim game too much. Your presenting "mountains of biblical evidence? Really? You really want to say that?

Just go back over the posts. My posts have an awful lot of biblical references in them. Of course you will just ignore them. Yours rarely have any biblical references. I would be happy to address any you want to present. I work on explaining passages like Ephesians 1, or 2nd Thes 2.

So far, all you do is say "well the elect one is Christ." Then you read that into every text in an isogetical way.

Of course anyone reading the text of scriptures is going to see that Christ is not the elect one in passages like 2Thes 2:13. I will post it once more.
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chose who to be saved? Christ was the savior, he did not need saved. The believer is the person called "you."

Eventide, I am going to have to admit that I am soon going to quit the conversation if it remains so shallow on your part. You gotta raise the bar a little here.

2 Thess 2:13 ~~ But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

"you" is the believer and "chose" is Gods choice and only Gods choice. But there is that pesky little Middle voice in the "chose" indicating 2 wills at work.

Chose~~airew 0138 aor mid ind 3s ---verb to choose. A middle voice indicates that God chooses based on a response of the objects will, "you" being the object and the believer.

2 Cor 6:2~~for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--

 

[Deborah13]

I think this statement brings up a good point. If only the elect are saved and they have been predestined for such purpose then who are the lost that Jesus came to seek and save?

Exactly.

One of the problems of looking at predestination is leaving out the 'foreknowledge' and those that God saw with His knowledge, He predestined to be. Did He predestine that they be saved or ....

Romans 8:29 KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

imho, I believe that God used His ability of foreknow, to know those who would respond to His drawing them and when they hear the gospel news, they choose Him.
And all those that choose Him, in their hearts, not just some head knowledge, will be conformed to the image of His Son. Does He override the will of man to do this? I don't believe He does. But that He convinces them of the truth. Just as the gospel convinced them of the truth of the Redeemer.

 

[Elijah674]

I think this statement brings up a good point. If only the elect are saved and they have been predestined for such purpose then who are the lost that Jesus came to seek and save?

Exactly.

One of the problems of looking at predestination is leaving out the 'foreknowledge' and those that God saw with His knowledge, He predestined to be. Did He predestine that they be saved or ....

Romans 8:29 KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

imho, I believe that God used His ability of foreknow, to know those who would respond to His drawing them and when they hear the gospel news, they choose Him.
And all those that choose Him, in their hearts, not just some head knowledge, will be conformed to the image of His Son. Does He override the will of man to do this? I don't believe He does. But that He convinces them of the truth. Just as the gospel convinced them of the truth of the Redeemer.

And Gal. what is new? ;) NOT A THING! (salvation issues!)
Good post. With the STRIVING of the Holy Spirit in Noah's day.

--Elijah

 

[mondar]

Re: What must I do to be saved...?

2 Thess 2:13 ~~ But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

"you" is the believer and "chose" is Gods choice and only Gods choice. But there is that pesky little Middle voice in the "chose" indicating 2 wills at work.

Chose~~airew 0138 aor mid ind 3s ---verb to choose. A middle voice indicates that God chooses based on a response of the objects will, "you" being the object and the believer.

2 Cor 6:2~~for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--

Good observation. I am glad you are asking some questions of the text and its grammar. At least that lifts the posts beyond the shallow name calling, claim making level to at least looking at the text.

I am not sure what you are referring to as airew. The word for choose is an unusual word in 2Thes 2:13. It is not the usual word elektos. The word is ειλατο. This is Aorist middle/passive form, but I believe the verb is deponent and not a true middle/passive voice. As a deponent verb it is translated with the active voice. So then, God is the one who calls is a correct translation.

Also, even if it were a true middle voice verb the middle voice refers to the noun acting upon itself. The noun would then be the actor and the reception of the action at the same time. This would then be translated "God called himself. I never heard a middle voice as relating to "2 wills." So then, even if it were true that the verb was truly a middle voice, your application would be incorrect for a middle voice verb.

While I do not think you can possibly substantiate your conclusion from the grammar in the text, this is not to say I am disappointed in your reply. I appreciate you attempting to lift the bar a little.

 

[mondar]

Mondar, correct me if I'm wrong on this... This is one thing I gleaned from your post.

You believe that Election is unconditional, but that salvation is conditional. Is that right?

You believe that a person is elected and chosen by God in eternity past, unconditionally, but then when it comes time for the experience of salvation in the believer, that this part of it is conditional upon their believing in God..

Am I following you ?

A person does not need to do anything to be elected or chosen by God, but they do need to believe in order to be saved by God.

Sorry, I missed this post. Yes, what you say above is a proper representation of what is taught in Calvinism, the 1689, the Westminster, and also believed by me.
I might be a little hard to read, but many of the terms I am using are bible terms. It is very important to distinguish between the biblical terms "justification" and "election."

 

[josefnospam]

WARNING.............STRONG CONTENT.
Well I see that you cling to what you can do. I cling to his mercy and grace and speak about the Christ of the cross. We disagree, one of us is wrong. I believe it when the scriptures say the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..
You seem to ignore so many scriptures..............None are rightous, no not one. I cannot do anything but declare Jesus Christ the Saviour. You spoke of Jhn 3:16...who is the whosoever spoken of here. Also if God died for all the sins of all the people why does anyone Go to hell. What sin can they commit if Christ died for ALL their sins. I know the idea that God hates certain people is hard to grasp but when the scriptures CLEARY state this what do you do with the scriptures. As it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated Romans. 9;13 this was before they were even Born as it states cleary in verse 11. The idea that certain men are ordained to be used for God's purpose just deflates the notion that all men have a free will to choose God. Jude verse 4 states CLEARY that certain men were ordained to this condenation trying to make Grace something else. the peace of the gospil does not rest in part on Christ's work and in part on man's work. It rests wholly on Christ"s work, because that work is perfect, forever and it renders all who put their trust in him as perfect as he is in God's eyes because God sees his son in us and not our sinfull nature. CHrist Was choosen
by God and we are chosen by Christ and not by our merit but by his mercifull Grace.

And what of the scripure that states CLEARY you have not choosen me but I have choosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit John 15:16.

When men hear the truth often times they hate it so much that would actually kill the messenger as they did to the Lord himself.
Today the truth is not heard often,covered with this awful doctrine of mans freewill heard so often in most churches. This is the doctrine of devils and a lie straight out of the pits of hell. But God has a precious rement that even at this time speak of HIS mercy and HIS GRACE and his election. Romans 11:5 The rest are blinded and only God can open the eyes of such people. You must be Born again, in the spirit

I expect to be attacked, made fun of (someone alreay has done so in this forum) lied about and be the object of the hate that exists in this world. I do so not to puff up myself but count this as a blessing. Bessed are ye when men shall hate you when they shall seperate you from their company and shall reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of mans sake. Rejoice ye in that day and leap for Joy Luke 6;22 and 23.

Now be assured I do not and cannot judge you. That is done by God and his word and that is between him and you. I believe in the compleate and perfect work mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. I must be BOLD, declaring his word as he allows me to do so, because the time is fast approaching when he will return. I look forward to that day and Hope you do also, trusting in him alone, now and forever. What a Great God we worship!

PS..........I'v had my say. You believe one thing I believe another. I rest in him. I hope you find what your searching for. May God bless you as only he can do.

 

[Eventide]

The OLD and the NEW...

One way to understand election is to simply look at the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN.

The old man is who I am naturally through the birth of my parents according to the flesh.

The new man is Christ in me, born in me miraculously through the power of the Holy Spirit of God, after we trusted in Christ, and after we believed.

Paul writes that we are to put off the OLD MAN who IS (not was) corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and to put on the NEW MAN who is created in righteousness and true holiness.

How much clearer does it need to be ?

Experience is another perfect view into this imo... especially if you've been IN CHRIST for any number of years.. you can see that there is a WAR going on in our members... between the FLESH and the SPIRIT.. see, there it is again.. they're contrary to one another... and it doesn't get better over time...

The OLD MAN is not being reformed, he's to be put off in a practical sense and he's already dead and crucified with Christ in the positional sense.. simply because this is what the word of God teaches.

Who in their right Christian mind is going to believe and teach others that their OLD MAN is chosen of God.. ?

It's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me...

 

[Eventide]

FLESH and the SPIRIT..

Perhaps the most clear picture we have between the FLESH and the SPIRIT is written in Galatians by the Apostle to the Gentiles...

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Narwhalist]

Greetings and God bless to all. If you don't mind I would like to put in my 2 cents. I have studied predestination in some detail the last few months in order to try and find the answer to what "the elect" are.
First of all, God has graciously blessed us with His grace, something which all of us are underserved of. So let's take a look at some scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:4 - who desires all men to be delivered, and come to full knowledge of Him
Titus 2:11 -For the grace of God which brings salvation appeared to all men.
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow as to the promise, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentance.
These scriptural passages are telling us that God wants and purposed for none of us to perish.
Romans 11:20 - Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith.
This passage tells us that nobody is unconditionally appointed to eternal life.
Then there is Romans 8:28-30 - (28) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (29) For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that he might be firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those He predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
The elect we see in scripture are those that He foreknew would willingly accept Jesus, and those He foreknew would accept Jesus were/are predestined to conform to His image.
There is something called the Law of non-contradiction which basically states that two things that are opposite cannot both be true. For example, if we truly have free will, then we must have the ability to choose Jesus, otherwise we have not free will.
So, knowing that the Bible is the word of God and thus cannot have contradictions, we must interpret the scripture in such a way as to not create a contradiction, as Calvinists have. :D

 

[Narwhalist]

Josefnospam writes - PS..........I'v had my say. You believe one thing I believe another. I rest in him. I hope you find what your searching for. May God bless you as only he can do.

This is what saddens me. This is not what Jesus had in mind, everyone interpret the Bible their own way and wind up believing different things. There is a way to correctly interpret scripture without saying my way is correct and yours be damned. This is how we wind up with so many denominations and not with the true church Jesus had in mind. We do serve a great God, but maybe we need to look at His word with a little humility.

 

[Eventide]

The Last Adam...

Consider the following;

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God..

Now think about what happens to any person when they hear the gospel and then trust in Christ...

What happens ?

God baptizes them into the BODY OF CHRIST...

This is absolutely critical..

We're members of the BODY of CHRIST... old things are passed away and behold, all things are become new..

And don't forget... we're the BODY OF CHRIST...

See how this fits..

We're not the elect because of some unconditional means... we're the elect because we are now IN CHRIST, the one and only one who IS the elect of God.. and HE is in us.

Prior to being born again by the Holy Spirit of God we were not the elect of God.. in fact, every last one of us in the first Adam are under the same condemnation. Then comes the Last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ..

And don't forget.. all who trust in Christ are baptized into the BODY OF CHRIST by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit of God.

This is how the scriptures can speak of Christians as the elect.. because they're IN CHRIST.

Now here's something else to consider...

Not only is the BODY OF CHRIST (the church of God) the elect... but Israel is also the elect of God.. not all Israel.. but rather all those in the OT who trusted in the promises of God and who were also justified by faith.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and when that's complete, the Deliverer shall come from Zion and turn ungodliness from JACOB..

Remember Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night.. and then in the morning of that day, the sun rose upon him..

Election is a very glorious doctrine when it is centered completely upon the infinitely glorious person of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and Him alone.

There are other aspects to election.. like Prophets, Apostles, etc.. although for the most part when people speak of election, they're speaking in terms of today and what's going on within the church of God, which is the...

BODY OF CHRIST...

 

[Danus]

Here's what I have concluded or come to understand at this point in my life. Scriptures most certainly speak of election and predestination. Therefore, it must true. Scripture also teaches about man's need to impart an action, ergo believe, trust, obey, ... Scripture speaks about how imparting these actions are a condition of salvation.

I would agree with this. We can't really lean one way or another when it comes to salvation, without ignoring large parts of the bible.

I experienced a conversion from lost to found, in my life. Some experience a long pondering of God before the let go, and some seek Him, and seek to please him in acceptance, and reverence to Him. But all who are in Christ, ultimately end in the same way.

One great aspect of God, is how we turn to Him freely, but how that might very well be part of our rebellion, and how He influences us, how He find us, and how He does, or allows this tailored to each individual.

I have no doubt God is working on, and influencing, people we might look at and think He's not. I believe He is working within situations that don't seem right to us. And I believe that God uses sin, and Evil, (Does not create the sin and evil, but uses it.) to bring about His will.

The stronger we are in Christ, I think the better we would be to recognize Gods role and position, in bringing about His will to save anyone.

 

[Mountain Man]

Threads like this on my weaker days make me just want to give up, "straight is the way" the bible says and "narrow is the gate" the only thing I can add is the phrase "born again" and "no man comes to me but that the father first draws him"...change is what to look for,are you a changed person with changed thoughts,passions,desires and longings and what environment are at home in as much as one can be at home in this world....these are the questions to ask yourself.