The Deity of Christ: His Person

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Yet 'your' Nicene Creed was NOT 'created' until THREE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER the DEATH of Christ. And the ONLY 'reason' for this meeting to begin with was that those in EUROPE had 'created' this 'trinity' idea and those from the WEST did NOT accept it. They were adamantly OPPOSED to 'creating' such a 'doctrine' for it had NOT been taught by the apostles or CHRIST HIMSELF.

Unfortunately, you don't appear to be well versed in Church history or Church Fathers. That is not surprising, as most Protestants think that after the Apostles, nothing happened until Luther came on the scene! The concept of the Trinity predates the Nicene Creed by AT LEAST 200 years... Without even refering to Sacred Scriptures...

The following is St. Irenaeus' "Rule of Faith", a creed WRITTEN around 180 AD, although no doubt believed before this (as I will show)

" . . this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race . . . "

The "Apostle's Creed", also known as the Roman Creed, is very similar to this, written about 215 AD. Thus, your accusation that this was all invented in 325 is false.

Now, some quotes from Fathers of the Apostolic Era:

"Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove."
Justin Martyr,First Apology,13A.D. 155),in ANF,I:166-167

"[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen."
Martyrdom of Polycarp 14(A.D. 157),in ANF,1:42

"For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;' He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,20:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,1:487-488

"And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle' (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.' And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' "
Theophilus of Antioch,To Autolycus,II:10(c.A.D. 181),in ANF,II:97-98

"In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered,God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her--being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas."
Tertullian,Against Praxeas,2(post A.D. 213),in ANF,III:598

Note, it was Tertullian who first came up with the TERM "Trinity", although the concept is clearly part of the earliest teachings of the Church.

You state that Christ WAS begotten but NOT 'created'. I don't know what the difference is. Perhaps you may be able to enlighten me?

"Begotten", in reference to the Word of God, means He is Eternally generated outside of time. Since God exists in timelessness, (no change), the Logos is never "created". If He was created, then there would be a time where God was without His Word, without His knowledge and wisdom. Such a suggestion is nonsense. It is on such statements that Muslims get confused on Christianity - applying human terms to God.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I never said that Jesus was created, pardner. I said that he was not the Son of God until he was born in the flesh. Jesus is the Word become flesh and is God.

I know what you wrote. And I stand by my reply. You are still wrong. The Logos, the Word of God was and is ALWAYS the Son of God, even before Incarnation in time through the Theotokis.

Tell me, Solo, at what point was God without His Word before the incarnation? It should be obvious that the Word pre-existed the incarnation, which was a moment when the Word took on flesh. The Word already existed - He merely took on a human nature with His divine nature (hypostatic union). The Word of God, the Son of God, is eternally begotten of the Father - again - unless you believe that Mary gave Jesus His divinity and God brought into existence another God that hadn't existed before...

Jesus is also fully man, and was not man until he was born, begotten of God the Father. Now where in scripture, and not from your head or the Roman Catholic tradition, or the Roman Catholic catechism, but the scriptures, does it say that the Word is the Son of God, and that Jehovah is the Father prior to the birth of Jesus.

So who was John talking about in the Prologue?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-4

Who else is called the light and the life in John's Gospel???

"There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light." John 1:5-8

Who did John testify to??? Anyone else besides Jesus???

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:11-13

Is there any other name by whom man is saved by then Jesus Christ? Who is John talking about?

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So whom do we call the "Word made flesh"? Is there anyone else out there who pre-existed his own flesh self? Who is "full of truth"???

Are you really still in the dark and not understanding that Jesus IS the Word of God?

The Word was begotten of the Father BEFORE the incarnation. That much is common sense - as it is through His Word that the Father created...

Nice tactic though francisdesales, did you get that from the Jesuits or the devil himself? False witness is a big sin, perhaps you should do double hail marys this next time.

Clearly, you're joking. Or you are totally unfamiliar with basic tenets of Christianity. I am not surprised that the best you can do is claim my words come from the devil. The Pharisees, in their blindness and arrogance, said the same thing of Christ. Me, being a servant of Christ, cannot expect better treatment...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Is there a difference?

"Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Mat 5:11-12

Yes, thanks for the comment.

God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

How strange..
This is the question I asked in the other thread. Anyway, I did answer you, so was Jesus created?

I think I have answered the other thread too. It's actually caught me out a couple of times - I've previewed, thinking I have posted and then closed the browser.

If there is anything unanswered please don't hesitate to PM me. I'm amenable to one on one if anyone wants.

So, as far as Jesus being created is concerned. Jesus was not created in the sense that we consider things created.

 

[jgredline]

I think I have answered the other thread too. It's actually caught me out a couple of times - I've previewed, thinking I have posted and then closed the browser.

If there is anything unanswered please don't hesitate to PM me. I'm amenable to one on one if anyone wants.

So, as far as Jesus being created is concerned. Jesus was not created in the sense that we consider things created.

So mutz
Tell me. How did Jesus come into existance?

 

[mutzrein]

JG - I've posted in the ONE TRUE GOD thread.

 

[stovebolts]

Nice tactic though francisdesales, did you get that from the Jesuits or the devil himself? False witness is a big sin, perhaps you should do double hail marys this next time.

Is there a difference?

Isn't this a violation of the TOS?

 

[francisdesales]

Isn't this a violation of the TOS?

Only if a Catholic initiates such hateful messages... Didn't you read the addendum to the TOS?

But seriously, Fundamentalists are free to show the "spirit" that dwells within them. By their fruits, they are known. They merely are condemning themselves, which is why I don't complain to the Administrators. All we can do is pray that Love breaks through their hard hearts - such behavior CANNOT be a sign of the Holy Spirit within...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Isn't this a violation of the TOS?

Here is the exchange between francisdesales and myself leading up to the post in question. Notice that francisdesales is emotional in his attack on my beliefs, and he utilizes false witness (which is not of God) in attacking me. (I will add the emphasis in quote when his attack is personal and not on specific beliefs)

I suggest that you explore the Nicene Creed, written long before your denomination was invented, and read it. It says Jesus was "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, through Him, all things were made"

Tell me how someone who was "created" with the Incarnation had anything to do with the Creation of the world? Clearly, you don't know what "begotten" means when speaking of Jesus Christ. You are simply making the same mistake that Muslims make...

Perhaps you should ditch your heretical group who can't use simple logic. The Logos is a pre-existent being who TOOK ON FLESH... Jesus Christ was not created... The Logos is now present in a new form, has a another nature. He is not a new creation.

I can't believe that we are even having this conversation. I hadn't realized that some Protestants have fallen so far from the tree. And you call Catholicism a cult? I think you need to get with the program, as the "Program" was around much longer than your inventions and misunderstanding of basic Christianity.

I never said that Jesus was created, pardner. I said that he was not the Son of God until he was born in the flesh. Jesus is the Word become flesh and is God. Jesus is also fully man, and was not man until he was born, begotten of God the Father. Now where in scripture, and not from your head or the Roman Catholic tradition, or the Roman Catholic catechism, but the scriptures, does it say that the Word is the Son of God, and that Jehovah is the Father prior to the birth of Jesus.

Nice tactic though francisdesales, did you get that from the Jesuits or the devil himself? False witness is a big sin, perhaps you should do double hail marys this next time.

If you go back through the thread you will notice that I have pointed out that the Word is God, and the Word became flesh meaning that Jesus was not the Son of God until the Word became Jesus; but that the pre-incarnate Jesus is the Word. I asked dear francisdesales to show me scripture that calls Jesus the Son of God prior to his birth, and where God is called Father before Jesus' birth, and he has yet to do so. He did say that the Word is a copy of God the Father, whatever, he means by that?!

 

[D46]

Isn't this a violation of the TOS?

Why?

This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The bible is the inspired, infallible, and only authoritative Word of God.

(NOT THE RCC, THEIR TRADITIONS OR THE MAGISTERIUM)



Jesus Christ, God's only Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born a virgin birth, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death upon a cross, raised from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He will one day return to the earth.

That man is in a lost and depraved condition by nature, and is in need of the new birth by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

In justification by faith apart from the works of the law.

That salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone, to whom we must respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Through Christ we come into a right relationship with God, our sins are forgiven, and we receive eternal life.

THE RCC CLAIMS ONLY SHE HAS THE POWER TO BESTOW SALVATION AND GRACES THROUGH MARY THEIR BELOVED GODDESS, ALONG WITH THE EUCHARIST WHICH IS TO "BE ADORED"


So, this is another gospel preached by the RCC and some on this forum. The articles that are spelled out in the Statement of Faith on this forum are compromised and violated everyday.

Get the beam out of thine own eye before you cast stones at me. :-?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Well, I know that most Catholics cannot be trusted for Biblical interpretations. The concept of Purgatory, praying to Mary, cannonized saints, water baptism, indulgences, mortal sin sends one to hell, and many other false beliefs.

Now I see some are debating who the Son of God is and if Jesus is God. Solo is right in saying that Jesus wasn't called the Son of God until He was born of the flesh. I think Fran. has a problem with this because he wants to say that Mary is the Mother of God, when she is really the natural mother of Jesus, and we know that Jesus is God that as God has the spiritual DNA from the Holy Spirit.

If we look at Genesis, we see that all three God Heads took part in creation because it says let Us create. In other words, Father God has the plan, Jesus Christ executes the plan, and the Holy Spirit reveals the plan.

Therefore, in my opinion Catholic's must fit in Scripture interpretation to satisfy their pet doctrines.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[stovebolts]

D46 wrote:

Solo wrote:
Nice tactic though francisdesales, did you get that from the Jesuits or the devil himself? False witness is a big sin, perhaps you should do double hail marys this next time.


Is there a difference?

Isn't this a violation of the TOS?

Does what you have written then justify these remarks? fair is fair...

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Well, I know that most Catholics cannot be trusted for Biblical interpretations. The concept of Purgatory, praying to Mary, cannonized saints, water baptism, indulgences, mortal sin sends one to hell, and many other false beliefs.

Now I see some are debating who the Son of God is and if Jesus is God. Solo is right in saying that Jesus wasn't called the Son of God until He was born of the flesh. I think Fran. has a problem with this because he wants to say that Mary is the Mother of God, when she is really the natural mother of Jesus, and we know that Jesus is God that as God has the spiritual DNA from the Holy Spirit.

If we look at Genesis, we see that all three God Heads took part in creation because it says let Us create. In other words, Father God has the plan, Jesus Christ executes the plan, and the Holy Spirit reveals the plan.

Therefore, in my opinion Catholic's must fit in Scripture interpretation to satisfy their pet doctrines.



May God bless, golfjack

AMEN!

 

[francisdesales]

Here is the exchange between francisdesales and myself leading up to the post in question. Notice that francisdesales is emotional in his attack on my beliefs, and he utilizes false witness (which is not of God) in attacking me. (I will add the emphasis in quote when his attack is personal and not on specific beliefs)

I'm emotional? By making a statement of fact? When I say "your denomination was invented" after the Creed, can you disprove that? That is a flat, historical statement - there is no emotion involved.

{quoting me, claiming this is an "attack"}
Clearly, you don't know what "begotten" means when speaking of Jesus Christ. You are simply making the same mistake that Muslims make...

Again, a statement of fact. Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ was God because God does not beget humans. God does not have a Son - according to Muslims. Thus, Solo, along with Muslims, misunderstand the Christian definition of "beget" in reference to God and His Son. A statement of fact with no emotion...We Christians certainly do not think that God brings forth children in the human manner, but spiritually. I had presumed that Solo would understand and agree with that - but his misunderstanding of "beget" shows he doesn't.

Perhaps you should ditch your heretical group who can't use simple logic.

This was in response to a previous reply that I "get with the program and come out of the Catholic cult", something that has been told to me nearly daily on this forum... I apologize for my response, but frankly, it gets tiring hearing from these "Christians" who enjoy putting other people down. Here, Solo is correct on the emotion.

I hadn't realized that some Protestants have fallen so far from the tree. And you call Catholicism a cult? I think you need to get with the program, as the "Program" was around much longer than your inventions and misunderstanding of basic Christianity.

Again, a response to another Protestant, not Solo. The simple fact of history makes the statements true .

Now, as to my false witness - I will now call YOU out, Solo. Since when did the Bible declare you infallible? Who do you think you are setting yourself up as the standard of WHAT is Christianity and what is false? I tire of the accusations of "false witness" because I disagree with your interpretations of Scriptures. If you can't disprove what I say from Scriptures, you have no right to call me a "false witness". Since you are not infallible, your interpretations of Scripture are as good as anyone else.

Or don't you believe in your own Sola Scriptura?

Oh, again, I guess that doesn't apply to a Catholic reader of the Bible...

"Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished." Prov 16:5

Those who consistently call others "servants of the devil" or "false witness" should consider the above verse...

I asked dear francisdesales to show me scripture that calls Jesus the Son of God prior to his birth

You know as well as I do that the Old Testament doesn't refer to Jesus of Nazareth directly and that Jesus of Nazareth, the Word made flesh, didn't exist until the Incarnation. How can someone know about Jesus being the Son of God before He revealed Himself?

But that is not the issue. Now, if you'd ask me if the Word was the Son of God, I can prove that. But Jesus? The Hypostatic Union didn't exist yet, so how can someone call Jesus the Son of God BEFORE the incarnation?

Thus, the Word of God was, is and will forever by the Son of God. And the Word became Jesus, the Hypostatic Union, through the Incarnation. Of course Jesus wasn't the Son until He was born of Mary - but that was not the issue. The issue was whether the Wordbeing begotten was a result of the incarnation through Mary or not. You say that God didn't have a Son until the Incarnation.

Common sense points out that the Word pre-existed the Word taking on flesh - and God begat the Word and begets the Word in eternity, as the Nicean Creed states.

Regards

 

[D46]

Just for the record...

The following is an exact translation of the doctrine of the Church of Rome as taught today in all Roman Catholic seminaries, colleges and universities, through the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas, vol. iv., p. 90:

"Though heretics (Protestants) must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them till, by the second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church. But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate to their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be EXTERMINATED."

This is but a small cut from the Oath of Jesuits...

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

Now you know why I made that comment.

 

[D46]

From a previous pope...

Pontiff's Address to Jesuits
"A Precious Spiritual Legacy That Must Not Be Lost"

VATICAN CITY, MAY 5, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Here is a Vatican translation of the address Benedict XVI delivered April 22 in St. Peter's Basilica to the Jesuits on pilgrimage to the tomb of St. Peter.

* * *

Dear Fathers and Brothers of the Society of Jesus,

I meet you with great joy in this historical Basilica of St. Peter's after the holy Mass celebrated for you by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, my secretary of state, on the occasion of combined jubilees of the Ignatian Family. I address my cordial greeting to you all.

I greet in the first place the superior general, Father Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, and thank him for his courteous words expressing your common sentiments to me. I greet the cardinals with the bishops and priests and all those who have desired to participate in this event.

Together with the Fathers and Brothers, I also greet the friends of the Society of Jesus present here, and among them, the many men and women religious, members of the Communities of Christian Life and of the Apostolate of Prayer, the students and alumnae with their families from Rome, from Italy and from Stonyhurst in England, the teachers and students of the academic institutions and the many collaborators.

Your visit today gives me the opportunity to thank the Lord with you for having granted your Society the gift of men of extraordinary holiness and exceptional apostolic zeal, such as St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Francis Xavier and Blessed Peter Faber. For you they are the fathers and founders: It is therefore appropriate that in this centenary year you commemorate them with gratitude and look to them as enlightened and reliable guides on your spiritual journey and in your apostolic activities.
St. Ignatius of Loyola was first and foremost a man of God who in his life put God, his greatest glory and his greatest service, first. He was a profoundly prayerful man for whom the daily celebration of the Eucharist was the heart and crowning point of his day.

Thus, he left his followers a precious spiritual legacy that must not be lost or forgotten. Precisely because he was a man of God, St. Ignatius was a faithful servant of the Church, in which he saw and venerated the Bride of the Lord and the Mother of Christians. And the special vow of obedience to the Pope, which he himself describes as "our first and principal foundation" (MI, Series III, I., p. 162), was born from his desire to serve the Church in the most beneficial way possible.

This ecclesial characteristic, so specific to the Society of Jesus, lives on in you and in your apostolic activities, dear Jesuits, so that you may faithfully meet the urgent needs of the Church today.

Among these, it is important in my opinion to point out your cultural commitment in the areas of theology and philosophy in which the Society of Jesus has traditionally been present, as well as the dialogue with modern culture, which, if it boasts on the one hand of the marvelous progress in the scientific field, remains heavily marked by positivist and materialist scientism.

Naturally, the effort to promote a culture inspired by Gospel values in cordial collaboration with the other ecclesial realities demands an intense spiritual and cultural training. For this very reason, St. Ignatius wanted young Jesuits to be formed for many years in spiritual life and in study. It is good that this tradition be maintained and reinforced, also given the growing complexity and vastness of modern culture.

Another of his great concerns was the Christian education and cultural formation of young people: hence, the impetus he gave to the foundation of "colleges," which after his death spread in Europe and throughout the world. Continue, dear Jesuits, this important apostolate, keeping the spirit of your founder unchanged.

In speaking of St. Ignatius, I cannot overlook the fact that the fifth centenary of St. Francis Xavier's birth was celebrated last April 7. Not only is their history interwoven through long years in Paris and Rome, but a single aspiration -- one might say, a single passion -- stirred and sustained them, even in their different human situations: the passion for working for the ever greater glory of God-the-Trinity and for the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ to the peoples who did not know him.

St. Francis Xavier, whom my Predecessor Pius XI, of venerable memory, proclaimed the "Patron of Catholic Missions," saw as his own mission "opening new ways of access" to the Gospel "in the immense continent of Asia." His apostolate in the Orient lasted barely 10 years, but in the four and half centuries that the Society of Jesus has existed it has proven wonderfully fruitful, for his example inspired a multitude of missionary vocations among young Jesuits and he remains a reference point for the continuation of missionary activity in the great countries of the Asian continent.

If St. Francis Xavier worked in the countries of the Orient, his confrere and friend since the years in Paris, Blessed Peter Faber, a Savoiard who was born on April 13, 1506, worked in the European countries where the Christian faithful aspired to a true reform of the Church.

He was a modest, sensitive man with a profound inner life. He was endowed with the gift of making friends with people from every walk of life and consequently attracted many young men to the Society.

Blessed Faber spent his short life in various European countries, especially Germany, where, at the order of Paul III, he took part in the Diets of Worms, Ratisbon and Speyer and in conversations with the leaders of the Reformation. He consequently had an exceptional opportunity to practice the special vow of obedience to the Pope "regarding the missions" and became a model to follow for all future Jesuits.

Etc., etc..

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

If we look at Genesis, we see that all three God Heads took part in creation because it says let Us create. In other words, Father God has the plan, Jesus Christ executes the plan, and the Holy Spirit reveals the plan.

Therefore, in my opinion Catholic's must fit in Scripture interpretation to satisfy their pet doctrines.

Golfjack,

Don't you realize that YOU are ALSO interpreting Scriptures to "fit your theology"? How many Jews are going to agree with your interpretation of the Genesis plural of God as proof of Trinity? They claim it is a "royal" we...

I guess we are in the same boat - Scripture interpretation is subject to our particular paradigm on who God is and how He has acted in history. The difference is that the Catholic Church, in kernel form, has been around since the Apostles, holding to the same beliefs of the first Christians, while Protesantism is a separation from this Catholicism.

If that offends, please recognize that this is historically true. All one has to do is read the first Christians' writings, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Justin the Martyr, the Didache, and so forth - all written or writing 125 years or less after Christ ascended to heaven. Read how THEY interpreted Scriptures and Apostolic teachings (hearing them directly) and see how they correspond to Protestantism or Catholicism. WHAT DID THEY BELIEVE regarding the Eucharist, Mary, prayers to saints who are in the next world, bishops, the Mass, and so forth...

Regards

 

[D46]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,†1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.â€Â

And this is the church of Christ? I submit it is always been a counterfeit organization based and founded upon lies, deceit and forgeries. Moreover, her end is the flames of hell.

 

[francisdesales]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,†1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life ..."

A careful reading of the text (written during the Council of Florence - which was convoked for the purpose of healing the rift between East and West) will reveal that the Council Fathers obviously had in mind was NOT an outright condemnation of those invincibly ignorant of the Gospel message, but of those who were obdurate in their rejection of it. It is equally certain that it never would have dawned upon a medieval Christian to suppose that the way Jews and Muslims were often approached with the Gospel did little to convince them that this was a program of life worthy of consideration, let alone that it could come truly from a God of peace.

The conventional wisdom of that era presumed that the Christian message was indeed sufficiently known that refusal to accept it constituted the sin of unbelief, deemed worthy of eternal damnation. Of course, "Extra Ecclesiam" further developed once the New World was discovered - the old certainties of yester-year went out the window once people realized millions have never had heard of Jesus Christ.

Once you get over your hatred of what you know little about, you will find that the Catholic approach is quite reasonable regarding those who are members of the Church, visible or not.

And this is the church of Christ? I submit it is always been a counterfeit organization based and founded upon lies, deceit and forgeries. Moreover, her end is the flames of hell.

Then apparently, you find the Bible to be counterfeit, as well. How on earth can you trust that a deceitful organization managed to put together the ENTIRE Word of God without error or deceit? I see a major disconnect in your logic here...

Regards

 

[D46]

Then apparently, you find the Bible to be counterfeit, as well. How on earth can you trust that a deceitful organization managed to put together the ENTIRE Word of God without error or deceit? I see a major disconnect in your logic here...

I find the ones who altered it (Rome) to be the counterfeits not the word of God as given to the Prophets and disciples of Christ and the true Christians (which, by the way, there wasn't any papal authorities as they didn't exist) who had to go underground as a result of persecution from Rome. They had the word of God but Rome murdered them when ever or where ever they found them for merely possessing the words of God. You may get some unintitated and uninformed to believe your "church fathers" put the bible together but, I don't fall for that smokescreen for a moment as it just didn't happen the way you perceive it did. But, all that has been discussed before and there's no need to go over and over it again. Monks may have copied it but they sure didn't write or compile it as the different "books" were already in circulation individually by faithful followers who made copies and weren't out to alter God's word the way Romish and Egyptian heretics did. I would no more trust your "church fathers" and believe them anymore than I believe in Aesop's Fables. Put together the ENTIRE Word of God without error or decieit? Come now-Where was one of the "oldest and best" mss found but in the Vatican itself...Codex B. I certainly would trust anything found in the Vatican shelves. This piece of trash left so much out of the bible as to be one of the most corrupt mss ever assembled and was most likely one of the 50 bibles Constantine had Eusebius to make up or it could have been a special "edition" from ol' Origen. No one knows for sure. As I said, based on deceit, lies and forgeries.