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The Deity of Christ: His Person

francisdesales said:
"...God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Begotten (eternally), not made, ONE in Being with the Father..."

God is One.

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Scriptures themselves, as interpreted by the Church, have taught us this for 1900 years...

By the way, I am always skeptical of one who claims they were taught DIRECTLY by God Himself, not by another person or a Church... Really, what sort of evidence do you have that this is not some delusional wishful thinking that justifies your point of view so you don't have to explain it logically to anyone?

Regards
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Ah francisdesales, your 'true nature' begins to rear it's ugly head. Your 'One true Church' belief has NO place in my heart. You have chosen to offer yourself willingly to those that would lead you to 'their father'. I have made NO such sacrifice of my soul.

So, you offer your scepticism of the words of Paul? Or even the words of 'your OWN saints'? Funny guy.

And what you offer is NOT 'truth'. That is clear to ANYONE that can see 'through' the words that YOU offer. For YOUR words are this: If it's NOT of the CC then it's NOT permissable. Oh foolish Galatian, who has bewitched who?

And I agree with one statement that you made; Scriptures themselves, as interpreted by the Church, have taught us this for 1900 years... Except for one tactical error, this statement IS true. AS interpreted by The church that you follow............. And I have found this lacking as far as The Church is concerned. Difficult to accept that 'a church' that tortured and murdered it's flock could possibly be 'The Church'. But, this 'trinity' thing certainly WAS introduced by 'a church'.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Ah francisdesales, your 'true nature' begins to rear it's ugly head. Your 'One true Church' belief has NO place in my heart. You have chosen to offer yourself willingly to those that would lead you to 'their father'. I have made NO such sacrifice of my soul.
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I am following apostolic teachings as given by Christ to the apostles. You follow your own whims...

Imagican said:
So, you offer your scepticism of the words of Paul? Or even the words of 'your OWN saints'? Funny guy.
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I offer my skepticism that God speaks to you PERSONALLY in such a way that you have been given "other" revelations other than what the Apostle received. I do not offer skepticism towards the Word of God as written by St. Paul, only your self-proclaimed conversations that are with God that reveal that He is NOT a Trinity or that Jesus is NOT God... Any such "gospel" is false and does not come from God, but from the devil, as Paul says in the first chapter of Galatians...

Imagican said:
And I agree with one statement that you made; Scriptures themselves, as interpreted by the Church, have taught us this for 1900 years... Except for one tactical error, this statement IS true. AS interpreted by The church that you follow............. And I have found this lacking as far as The Church is concerned. Difficult to accept that 'a church' that tortured and murdered it's flock could possibly be 'The Church'. But, this 'trinity' thing certainly WAS introduced by 'a church'.
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What people do who claim to be Catholic is not representative of the entire Catholic Church. Your accusation is akin to being told you are a murderer because you are German - even though you are not a Nazi, nor were ever in Germany to begin with...

If you think the Catholic Church fails because some of her constituents have fallen - perhaps you should consider the Church that Jesus Christ established had a failed apostle - Judas Iscariot. Does that make Jesus Christ or the Church of the Acts of the Apostles any less because of Judas? If "Trinity" was introduced by the Church, so is the idea that Jesus is God...

Regards
 
Imagican said:
Christ IS worthy of worship, just NOT AS GOD HIMSELF. For God IS THE FATHER and Christ IS His Son.

Solo, you offering that Thomas called Christ God has been explained over and over again. The religious order of the time called Christ the 'son of Satan', does that MAKE IT SO? Of course not. Thomas was a looser to start with. Doubted Christ and insisted upon seeing His wounds before 'believing' that He was INDEED Jesus Christ. So, that HE stated my Lord and my God means LITTLE to ANY that understand that this man was a doubter to start with. And his statement does NOT offer anything other than the description of AN EVENT, NOT who or WHAT Christ TRULY is or isn't.

Christ IS our Saviour. And there IS only ONE capable of offering such. God offered His Son to die for our sins. Christ MADE the sacrifice by following the will of God. So, you see, your reasoning is flawed. You seem to think that since there is ONLY one Saviour that Chirst MUST be God Himself. NO, Christ was given power from above. He states this. So, while God is the ONLY means of Salvation, it was through His Son that this became possible. Nice try though.

Your offering of statements by the other apostles are NOTHING but 'YOUR' interpretation of inuendo which I do not believe EVEN EXISTS. It is YOUR doctrine that forces YOU to alter the meaning behind scripture to fit YOUR doctrine. I simply accept it as offered. No effort on my part to 'change' anything to fit my doctrine. I have simply come to accept The Word AS OFFERED without 'trying' to make it fit ANYTHING.

Solo, answer me this: What does ONLY BEGOTTEN really MEAN? And NOT just Solo, ANYONE, please explain what this means.

MEC
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Your explanation of Thomas claiming that Jesus is his Lord and his God was very lacking, and you continue to doubt that Jesus is God, so I would lighten up on dear Thomas if I were you.

As far as your question, "What does ONLY BEGOTTEN really mean?"; it means that God became flesh, begotten of a woman, one time only.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
 
Solo said:
As far as your question, "What does ONLY BEGOTTEN really mean?"; it means that God became flesh, begotten of a woman, one time only.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14
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Solo,

Referring to Imagican's question above, you correctly quote Scripture, but your explanation is incorrect. When we refer to the Son of God being the only Begotten Son, it has nothing to do with the Incarnation or Mary, but rather, being Begotten in the "NOW" of eternity by the Father - as you bold in verse 14. (Galatians says He was "born" of a woman, not begotten). The Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, is a perfect copy of the Father. All that the Father is is eternally generated - and this wisdom or reason of the Father is personified and called "the Logos" - the Second Person of the Trinity. The ONLY difference within the Godhead between the Two are their origin.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (whose feast day is today) said in 107 AD

"Jesus is the thought of the Father".

Indeed, the Christ IS the Logos made man. And this Person is a perfect copy of the thought of the Father of Himself. Thus, when the Creed speaks of the "only Begotten Son", it is speaking about the Son's eternal generation by the Father - He is uncreated, as there never was a moment when the Father was without His knowledge or wisdom of Himself...

Regards
 
Solo,

Put on your seatbelt cause we're goin' on a ride. Hope you're sitting down for this one:

You offer a 'made up' explanation or definition of 'begotten'. What you offer IS NOT accurate in the least. You state that 'begotten' means 'God made flesh'. Sorry, my friend, for this is NOT what 'begotten' means AT ALL.

I, Mike, was begotten of my fleshly father and my fleshly mother. Me being concieved WAS my being 'begotten'. You may 'choose' to create your OWN definitions of words and their meanings but that does NOT change the 'truth'.

Now, fit your 'created definition' into this:

Hebrews 11:17

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Now, here we have a 'true' definition of EXACTLY what 'begotten' IS. Abraham DID have another son through an UNRIGHTEOUS union, but his ONLY begotten was through a righteous union and therefore his ONLY BEGOTTEN. Please explain how Abaham's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, is HIS SON, and how God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON IS NOT HIS SON BUT HIMSELF. You see, your illogical and unbiblical standing on a doctrine does NOT even make sense. Either that or the Bible is UN-TRUE. I KNOW that The Word IS TRUE so it only stands to reason that it is the theology of 'trinity' itself that is flawed. It has a 'ring of truth' but then so did the statement made to Eve in the garden.

Only Begotten means EXACTLY THAT. Christ is the ONLY Son of God. That means that the 'male' part of Mary's conception WAS God Himself. You can deny this and make up ALL kinds of.......well God COULD do this or God COULD do that, but the TRUTH is that God DID what He DID and no amount of word wrangling can change or alter it in 'truth'.

If Christ WERE God He wouldn't have need for ANOTHER NAME. That in itself would BE decieving and God does NOT LIE. SATAN IS the father of lies NOT GOD. Christ told us WHO He IS and He NEVER stated that He WAS God. To the contrary, He offered that God is GREATER than He. That the words that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER. Christ PRAYED to GOD constantly. God spoke to His Son and there are even witnesses that HEARD THIS. Christ WILL return to this earth AS THE SON OF GOD and OUR KING. God will STILL be His Father upon this return.

When a man and woman wed, they TOO become AS ONE. When we accept Christ into our hearts WE AND CHRIST BECOME ONE. Christ and The Father ARE ONE in THIS SAME RESPECT. And what is this mystery? What it shouldn't HAVE TO BE; LOVE. Love should NOT have to be a mystery but for the nature of man's heart IT IS. The man and woman become ONE IN LOVE. We and Christ become ONE IN LOVE and The Father and His Son 'ARE ONE IN LOVE'.

That this is a mystery only goes to show how darkened the hearts of men have become. There is NO UNDERSTANDING of God OR His Son without an understanding of WHAT they are FIRST. God IS LOVE. Christ IS THE EXAMPLE OF THIS LOVE. WE TOO ARE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AND PARTAKE OF THIS LOVE through The Spirit of God.

MEC
 
Jesus was conceived inside Mary with God being the Father, and this process was the manner in which God came in the flesh. Jesus is the pre-incarnate Word which is God, and the Word was not begotten until conceived by God the Spirit. God the Father was not the Father until the Word became flesh as the Son of God.

Only difficult for those who do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.
 
Solo said:
Jesus was conceived inside Mary with God being the Father, and this process was the manner in which God came in the flesh. Jesus is the pre-incarnate Word which is God, and the Word was not begotten until conceived by God the Spirit. God the Father was not the Father until the Word became flesh as the Son of God.

Only difficult for those who do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.
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I hate to tell you this, Solo, but your Trinitarian theology is wrong.

The Word of God pre-existed Mary!!! There was NEVER a time that God existed without His Word! So how can you say that the "Word was not begotten until conceived by God the Spirit"??? Ridiculous. Are you saying that God gave birth to another "God" through Mary?

God the Father is ALWAYS the Father to the Son - who is ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN! The Nicean Creed (which most Protestants subsribe to) clearly notes this. To say that God the Father existed alone as one Person before the Incarnation is flat out wrong.

The difficulty is not because the Spirit dwells in you or not. It is because you do not participate in the fullness of the faith, thus, you have been taught wrong. These matters have already been discussed and defined hundreds of years ago. There is no need to re-invent the wheel, God has revealed Himself already as a Trinity of Persons in which the Father eternally begets His Son in the NOW of eternity.

Regards
 
Well Solo is right.

The expression "only begotten" is an interesting phrase, especially as it applies to Jesus.

The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).

Only begotten as applied to Jesus. The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Modernists contend that Jesus was simply another son of God. Not so! Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). Beloved, God's people are adopted "sons of God," Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).

As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9). Moreover, we must believe in the only begotten Son of God (Jn. 3: 18, 16).

Hence, Jesus is uniquely and singularly the Son of God - the only one of his kind. To realize the only begotten Son of God gave his life for you and me is indeed most humbling.

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTARO16.htm

http://www.learnthebible.org/Only%20Begotten%20Son.htm

Frances
I suggest you ditch the catholic cult and get with the program :-D
 
Oscar - I certainly have no problem with Jesus being the only begotten son OF God.

What I do have issue with is the notion of those who say that Jesus is the only begotten son WHO IS God.
 
Muts
I know that is what you believe. I used to believe that also until I was born again. Tell me. Since Jesus is not God, where did he come from?
 
francisdesales said:
I hate to tell you this, Solo, but your Trinitarian theology is wrong.

The Word of God pre-existed Mary!!! There was NEVER a time that God existed without His Word! So how can you say that the "Word was not begotten until conceived by God the Spirit"??? Ridiculous. Are you saying that God gave birth to another "God" through Mary?

God the Father is ALWAYS the Father to the Son - who is ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN! The Nicean Creed (which most Protestants subsribe to) clearly notes this. To say that God the Father existed alone as one Person before the Incarnation is flat out wrong.

The difficulty is not because the Spirit dwells in you or not. It is because you do not participate in the fullness of the faith, thus, you have been taught wrong. These matters have already been discussed and defined hundreds of years ago. There is no need to re-invent the wheel, God has revealed Himself already as a Trinity of Persons in which the Father eternally begets His Son in the NOW of eternity.

Regards
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God the Father was not the Father until Jesus was born.
God the Son was not the Son until Jesus was born, he was God the Word.
Show me in scripture where God the Father is called the Father prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, and show me in scripture where God the Word is called the Son prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. Don't tell me I have just discovered another Roman Catholic false teaching?!
 
oscar3 said:
mUTZ
Let me refraze the question since you dodged it.
Was Jesus Created?
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No, haven't dodged it.

And this same question arose in another thread, to which I responded that I would answer that question if they could answer mine - which was in effect, 'when you speak, is your word created?'

But you know we did go over some of this ground pages back and I offered to post (again) regarding Jesus relationship to God. I thought you were dodging asking me to post. Perhaps you thought 'ho-hum heard it all'? Anyways I'm happy to oblige - and enlighten should you say the word.
 
mutzrein said:
No, haven't dodged it.

And this same question arose in another thread, to which I responded that I would answer that question if they could answer mine - which was in effect, 'when you speak, is your word created?'

But you know we did go over some of this ground pages back and I offered to post (again) regarding Jesus relationship to God. I thought you were dodging asking me to post. Perhaps you thought 'ho-hum heard it all'? Anyways I'm happy to oblige - and enlighten should you say the word.
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How strange..
This is the question I asked in the other thread. Anyway, I did answer you, so was Jesus created?
 
oscar3 said:
Well Solo is right.

Frances
I suggest you ditch the catholic cult and get with the program :-D
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I suggest that you explore the Nicene Creed, written long before your denomination was invented, and read it. It says Jesus was "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, through Him, all things were made"

Tell me how someone who was "created" with the Incarnation had anything to do with the Creation of the world? Clearly, you don't know what "begotten" means when speaking of Jesus Christ. You are simply making the same mistake that Muslims make...

Perhaps you should ditch your heretical group who can't use simple logic. The Logos is a pre-existent being who TOOK ON FLESH... Jesus Christ was not created... The Logos is now present in a new form, has a another nature. He is not a new creation.

I can't believe that we are even having this conversation. I hadn't realized that some Protestants have fallen so far from the tree. And you call Catholicism a cult? I think you need to get with the program, as the "Program" was around much longer than your inventions and misunderstanding of basic Christianity.
 
Fran,

Yet 'your' Nicene Creed was NOT 'created' until THREE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER the DEATH of Christ. And the ONLY 'reason' for this meeting to begin with was that those in EUROPE had 'created' this 'trinity' idea and those from the WEST did NOT accept it. They were adamantly OPPOSED to 'creating' such a 'doctrine' for it had NOT been taught by the apostles or CHRIST HIMSELF. So, fran, perhaps YOU should read up on the history of 'your' beliefs and WHERE they 'came' from. A simple 'majority' outvoting a minority does NOT make something correct or true.

The ONLY way that you are capable of labeling ME a Protestant is that I REFUSE to bow to 'your pope', and refuse to follow the 'man-made' tradition of 'your church'. I have only been around for forty five years and NEVER found need to 'protest' against the CC for I have NEVER been exposed to it except through study.

You state that Christ WAS begotten but NOT 'created'. I don't know what the difference is. Perhaps you may be able to enlighten me?

MEC
 
francisdesales said:
I suggest that you explore the Nicene Creed, written long before your denomination was invented, and read it. It says Jesus was "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, through Him, all things were made"

Tell me how someone who was "created" with the Incarnation had anything to do with the Creation of the world? Clearly, you don't know what "begotten" means when speaking of Jesus Christ. You are simply making the same mistake that Muslims make...

Perhaps you should ditch your heretical group who can't use simple logic. The Logos is a pre-existent being who TOOK ON FLESH... Jesus Christ was not created... The Logos is now present in a new form, has a another nature. He is not a new creation.

I can't believe that we are even having this conversation. I hadn't realized that some Protestants have fallen so far from the tree. And you call Catholicism a cult? I think you need to get with the program, as the "Program" was around much longer than your inventions and misunderstanding of basic Christianity.
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I never said that Jesus was created, pardner. I said that he was not the Son of God until he was born in the flesh. Jesus is the Word become flesh and is God. Jesus is also fully man, and was not man until he was born, begotten of God the Father. Now where in scripture, and not from your head or the Roman Catholic tradition, or the Roman Catholic catechism, but the scriptures, does it say that the Word is the Son of God, and that Jehovah is the Father prior to the birth of Jesus.

Nice tactic though francisdesales, did you get that from the Jesuits or the devil himself? False witness is a big sin, perhaps you should do double hail marys this next time.
 
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