The Deity of Christ: His Person

[jgredline]

D46
Perhaps where you come from its comman language, but here on the west coast you just called Oscar and Frances a male sex organ :o and I worded it nice, it means much worse..

 

[D46]

Then you're a weird bunch out there. Maybe I should have said a sparrow. :roll:

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus IS the Father!! He is God incarnate-thus sayeth the Scriptures. francis, you and oscar are the most hard headed peckerwoods I've ever seen!! But what can you expect from a "cultist" like me...care for some Kool Aid? Freshly brewed by Bro. Jim. 8-)

Say what? That heresy, modalism, has been shot down well over 1500 years ago... The Son of God is NOT the Father... The Father has given ALL that He has to the Son, but that doesn't mean that the Son IS the Father. They are two different persons of the Blessed Trinity.

You are forgetting that God is a Trinity of Persons. God is three persons. Thus, the Father and the Son are not the same person. They abide in each other and can do nothing separately, but their origin differs - if you are familiar with the Nicene Creed, it explains it all nicely.

As to "hard-headed peckerwoods", there is no need for such childish flashbacks. If you can't take a bit of correction because you are incorrect, than what can I say? Name-calling is the best you can do?

WE will be judged for every unkind word we say - so keep that in mind.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, You were doing pretty good there, but how can anyyone be saved through Mary?

May God bless, golfjack

AH!

God, in His infinite wisdom, has chosen to come to become man through a Virgin, a most Holy vessel that He has planned for from the beginning of time, undoing the disobedience of the first virgin - Eve. It is through Mary, the greatest of creation, that man has been saved BECAUSE of her Son! Oh wonderful of mysteries, God becoming man so that man could become divinized! Thus, we can say that man has been saved through Mary's "Yes", through her ultimate abandonment to God's Divine Will.

"Those who say Mary was as a pipe through whom the Son of God flowed to become man is an impious man" St. Basil the Great...

Alleluia, He has risen!

 

[francisdesales]

Howdy golfjack,

I think you misread her post. We all do that from time to time.
She says no Mary doesn't save....

Just thought I would step in here.

Blessings.

Gabby,

You are correct in your explanation - although I am a man.

Francis de Sales was a Catholic saint of the 1600's during the Counter Reformation.

Regards

 

[D46]

You are forgetting that God is a Trinity of Persons. God is three persons. Thus, the Father and the Son are not the same person.

So, you expect to see not one, not two, but three separate Gods in Heaven? Is that a correct assumption based on you testimony above?

BTW-the "woodpecker" thing wasn't name calling at all nor was it intended in the slightest. Guess it's a regional thing as no one here thinks a thing about it. I suppose it's a geographical word like "hosepipe" is a "garden hose". No maliciousness intended.

 

[jgredline]

Say what? That heresy, modalism, has been shot down well over 1500 years ago... The Son of God is NOT the Father... The Father has given ALL that He has to the Son, but that doesn't mean that the Son IS the Father. They are two different persons of the Blessed Trinity.

You are forgetting that God is a Trinity of Persons. God is three persons. Thus, the Father and the Son are not the same person. They abide in each other and can do nothing separately, but their origin differs - if you are familiar with the Nicene Creed, it explains it all nicely.

As to "hard-headed peckerwoods", there is no need for such childish flashbacks. If you can't take a bit of correction because you are incorrect, than what can I say? Name-calling is the best you can do?

WE will be judged for every unkind word we say - so keep that in mind.

Regards

Well said Francis
If I may add this simple explanation that even a third grader can understand.
1x1x1=1, This answer would get an A+

1+1+1.. does not equal 1 This answer gets a failing grade.

Perhaps a better word than trinity would be Tri-unity

 

[francisdesales]

So, you expect to see not one, not two, but three separate Gods in Heaven? Is that a correct assumption based on you testimony above?

BTW-the "woodpecker" thing wasn't name calling at all nor was it intended in the slightest. Guess it's a regional thing as no one here thinks a thing about it. I suppose it's a geographical word like "hosepipe" is a "garden hose". No maliciousness intended.

I expect there to be one God in heaven. How that will be manifested is as yet unknown to man...

Btw, you didn't call me a "woodpecker", but a "peckerwood". What region of the world considers that a kind statement? Does the region you live in also make such statements of "endearment" in conjunction with the Jim Jones comments???

Call it malicious, apologize, and move on. Don't deny what it was. You are forgiven.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Peckerwood is a name that many use in the western United States, such as Texas, New Mexico, Colorado. It does not mean anything derogatory, nor is it a vulgar term. It is not much different than the term bassackwards

 

[D46]

There you go...thanks for that clarification, Solo. Even John Wayne used it and who's gonna call the Duke's bluff!! :D It's also used in Missouri, Tennessee and the Carolina's.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Beg pardon. :

 

[francisdesales]

Beg pardon. :

No problem.

 

[jgredline]

This is a pretty good little webpage that explains the false teaching and belief of modalism.

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm

 

[Imagican]

modalism, that sounds JUST like 'another' institution of MAN. Something that MAN has decided makes MORE sense than simply accepting the 'TRUTH'.

Let's see, we KNOW that God IS The Father. We KNOW that Christ IS His Son. We KNOW that this IS what we have been offered by The Father, (God), AND His Son. We KNOW that this has ALSO been offered BY the apostles of Christ. And HERE is our PROOF of WHAT we KNOW:

Christ HAS offered that The Father IS greater than He. That God HAS TOLD us that Christ IS His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. That the apostles knew and offered that Christ IS The Son of God. That it took over two hundred and fiftey years AFTER Christ's death for the 'idea' of Jesus IS God to be developed. And that those that chose to 'institutionalize this 'Christ AS God' thing were a people that had a PREVIOUS 'three part god' or 'trinity'.

I have asked the question from ALMOST EVERY 'trinitarian' that I have encountered, "Who taught you this 'trinity'? The answer has been invariably the SAME. 'i don't really remember', or even the OBVIOUS FALSEHOOD, 'NO ONE'. Funnny, but GOD taught me that HE IS GOD. And Christ has taught me that HE IS THE SON OF GOD. No MAN, NO CHURCH, but God and Christ THEMSELVES, through the WORD and The Spirit. Yet those that INSIST upon 'trinity' tell ME that this is NOT POSSIBLE. Now, sit back for a second and let this 'sink in', then use you minds and hearts to discern THE TRUTH.

MEC

 

[Solo]

modalism, that sounds JUST like 'another' institution of MAN. Something that MAN has decided makes MORE sense than simply accepting the 'TRUTH'.

Let's see, we KNOW that God IS The Father. We KNOW that Christ IS His Son. We KNOW that this IS what we have been offered by The Father, (God), AND His Son. We KNOW that this has ALSO been offered BY the apostles of Christ. And HERE is our PROOF of WHAT we KNOW:

Christ HAS offered that The Father IS greater than He. That God HAS TOLD us that Christ IS His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. That the apostles knew and offered that Christ IS The Son of God. That it took over two hundred and fiftey years AFTER Christ's death for the 'idea' of Jesus IS God to be developed. And that those that chose to 'institutionalize this 'Christ AS God' thing were a people that had a PREVIOUS 'three part god' or 'trinity'.

I have asked the question from ALMOST EVERY 'trinitarian' that I have encountered, "Who taught you this 'trinity'? The answer has been invariably the SAME. 'i don't really remember', or even the OBVIOUS FALSEHOOD, 'NO ONE'. Funnny, but GOD taught me that HE IS GOD. And Christ has taught me that HE IS THE SON OF GOD. No MAN, NO CHURCH, but God and Christ THEMSELVES, through the WORD and The Spirit. Yet those that INSIST upon 'trinity' tell ME that this is NOT POSSIBLE. Now, sit back for a second and let this 'sink in', then use you minds and hearts to discern THE TRUTH.

MEC

Don't forget that we know that the Apostles believed that Jesus was God, and that the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God, and that the prophets of the Old Testament declared that Jehovah was the sole saviour and would have one crying in the wilderness making the path clear for Jehovah, and that path that the voice was clearing in the wilderness was Jesus, and remember that God is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (from your own words you claimed that this was Jesus), and Jesus used the personnal form of the word of being many times claiming that he was the "I am".

Now why do you ignore that part of the scripture? Because it does not align with your fleshly beliefs, and your personal man-made doctrines or doctrines of devils is made untrue?

 

[francisdesales]

I have asked the question from ALMOST EVERY 'trinitarian' that I have encountered, "Who taught you this 'trinity'? The answer has been invariably the SAME. 'i don't really remember', or even the OBVIOUS FALSEHOOD, 'NO ONE'. Funnny, but GOD taught me that HE IS GOD. And Christ has taught me that HE IS THE SON OF GOD. No MAN, NO CHURCH, but God and Christ THEMSELVES, through the WORD and The Spirit. Yet those that INSIST upon 'trinity' tell ME that this is NOT POSSIBLE. Now, sit back for a second and let this 'sink in', then use you minds and hearts to discern THE TRUTH.

MEC

"...God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Begotten (eternally), not made, ONE in Being with the Father..."

God is One.

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Scriptures themselves, as interpreted by the Church, have taught us this for 1900 years...

By the way, I am always skeptical of one who claims they were taught DIRECTLY by God Himself, not by another person or a Church... Really, what sort of evidence do you have that this is not some delusional wishful thinking that justifies your point of view so you don't have to explain it logically to anyone?

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Don't forget that we know that the Apostles believed that Jesus was God, and that the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God, and that the prophets of the Old Testament declared that Jehovah was the sole saviour and would have one crying in the wilderness making the path clear for Jehovah, and that path that the voice was clearing in the wilderness was Jesus, and remember that God is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (from your own words you claimed that this was Jesus), and Jesus used the personnal form of the word of being many times claiming that he was the "I am".

Solo,

Your statements above are NOTHING but conjecture and 'guessing'. YOU and others 'twisting' The Word to attempt to 'make it your own'. With a predetermined agenda, you insist that words say what you 'want' them to. The apostles did NOT teach that Jesus IS God. That is simply NOT TRUE. Christ NEVER stated that He WAS God. That too is NOT TRUE. Saying I am does NOT offer the 'same' as saying, "I AM GOD''. So, you feeble attempt to convince yourself or others that what you offer is TRUTH means little to those that KNOW the difference.

Now why do you ignore that part of the scripture? Because it does not align with your fleshly beliefs, and your personal man-made doctrines or doctrines of devils is made untrue?

I ignore NOTHING offered through The Word. I simply do NOT accept YOUR understanding of it. And the BIGGEST difference is that I have REFUSED to follow the understanding of men and have simply accepted the understanding of God. There is NO man or any man's understanding that is capable of offering me THE understanding OF GOD. Therefore I shun that which is followed by the masses for the simply concept that we have been warned against. That being that MEN WOULD come and 'alter' The Word to 'suit themselves'. That IS EXACTLY what has been done and I reject EXACTLY what we have been TOLD to reject. And that being a 'different gospel' than that offered by Christ or His apostles. So, if there IS a 'doctrine of devils' that someone follows, it would be those that choose to follow MEN rather God through The Spirit. No, not a spirit, but THE SPIRIT.

Your 'trinity' is NOTHING other than an altering of that which has been offered in TRUTH. That you are unable to 'clearly see' this is a prime indication that it may be YOU that has chosen to follow a 'different' spirit.

Solo, I KNOW what has been revealed to me. I know the changes that have been wrought in my life through The Spirit. And I KNOW NO 'trinity'. Nothing but a word and concept introduced to 'take away' from the 'TRUTH'. A very basic study of the history of it proves what I have stated without a doubt to ANYONE that is willing to 'accept the TRUTH'. That there ARE MANY that will ignore the truth regardless of evidence supporting it is no different than those that are STiLL out looking for Big Foot or Nessy.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Don't forget that we know that the Apostles believed that Jesus was God, and that the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming to be God, and that the prophets of the Old Testament declared that Jehovah was the sole saviour and would have one crying in the wilderness making the path clear for Jehovah, and that path that the voice was clearing in the wilderness was Jesus, and remember that God is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (from your own words you claimed that this was Jesus), and Jesus used the personnal form of the word of being many times claiming that he was the "I am".

Solo,

Your statements above are NOTHING but conjecture and 'guessing'. YOU and others 'twisting' The Word to attempt to 'make it your own'. With a predetermined agenda, you insist that words say what you 'want' them to. The apostles did NOT teach that Jesus IS God.

The Bible is clear on what the truth is. Let us see what the scripture says about the Apostles believing that Jesus is God.

The Apostle Thomas knew that Jesus was God.

Parallel Verses of John 20:28

American Standard Version: Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Bible in Basic English: And Thomas said in answer, My Lord and my God!

Darby Bible Translation: Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

King James Version: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Weymouth New Testament: "My Lord and my God!" replied Thomas.

Webster's Bible Translation: And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

World English Bible: Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Young's Literal Translation: And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'

The Apostle John knew that Jesus was God.

Parallel Verses of John 1:1

American Standard Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bible in Basic English: From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.

Darby Bible Translation: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Version: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Webster's Bible Translation: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The Apostle Paul knew that Jesus was God.

Parallel Verses of 1 Timothy 3:16

American Standard Version: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Bible in Basic English: And without argument, great is the secret of religion: He who was seen in the flesh, who was given God's approval in the spirit, was seen by the angels, of whom the good news was given among the nations, in whom the world had faith, who was taken up in glory.

Darby Bible Translation: And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory.

King James Version: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Weymouth New Testament: And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion -- that Christ appeared in human form, and His claims justified by the Spirit, was seen by angels and proclaimed among Gentile nations, was believed on in the world, and received up again into glory.

Webster's Bible Translation: And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

World English Bible: Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Young's Literal Translation: and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

The Apostle Peter knew that Jesus was God.

Parallel Verses of 2 Peter 1:1

American Standard Version: Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the'saviour Jesus Christ:

Bible in Basic English: Simon Peter, a servant and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who with us have a part in the same holy faith in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

Darby Bible Translation: Simon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

King James Version: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Weymouth New Testament: Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:

World English Bible: Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Young's Literal Translation: Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

That is simply NOT TRUE. Christ NEVER stated that He WAS God. That too is NOT TRUE. Saying I am does NOT offer the 'same' as saying, "I AM GOD''. So, you feeble attempt to convince yourself or others that what you offer is TRUTH means little to those that KNOW the difference.

The I AM statements of Jesus

Now why do you ignore that part of the scripture? Because it does not align with your fleshly beliefs, and your personal man-made doctrines or doctrines of devils is made untrue?

I ignore NOTHING offered through The Word. I simply do NOT accept YOUR understanding of it. And the BIGGEST difference is that I have REFUSED to follow the understanding of men and have simply accepted the understanding of God. There is NO man or any man's understanding that is capable of offering me THE understanding OF GOD. Therefore I shun that which is followed by the masses for the simply concept that we have been warned against. That being that MEN WOULD come and 'alter' The Word to 'suit themselves'. That IS EXACTLY what has been done and I reject EXACTLY what we have been TOLD to reject. And that being a 'different gospel' than that offered by Christ or His apostles. So, if there IS a 'doctrine of devils' that someone follows, it would be those that choose to follow MEN rather God through The Spirit. No, not a spirit, but THE SPIRIT.

I have shown you many, many things in scripture designating that Jesus is God. Your opinion is that he is not, even though the Apostles call him God, and the prophets see him as Jehovah, and Moses spoke of him.

Your 'trinity' is NOTHING other than an altering of that which has been offered in TRUTH. That you are unable to 'clearly see' this is a prime indication that it may be YOU that has chosen to follow a 'different' spirit.

You always bring up the trinity. I have posted scriptural evidences that Jesus is God. Your lack of understanding basic scripture alludes me to believe that you are following a spirit of antichrist, for you do not believe that God is capable of coming in the flesh.

Solo, I KNOW what has been revealed to me. I know the changes that have been wrought in my life through The Spirit. And I KNOW NO 'trinity'. Nothing but a word and concept introduced to 'take away' from the 'TRUTH'. A very basic study of the history of it proves what I have stated without a doubt to ANYONE that is willing to 'accept the TRUTH'. That there ARE MANY that will ignore the truth regardless of evidence supporting it is no different than those that are STiLL out looking for Big Foot or Nessy.

MEC

You always blame the Catholic Church for what you claim is a heresy called the trinity. Here is some church history prior to the Roman Catholic Church for you:

Church History before the Roman Catholic Church

 

[jgredline]

John 9:35-41
35 ηκουσεν ο ιησους οτι εξεβαλον αυτον εξω και ευρων αυτον ειπεν αυτω συ πιστευεις εις τον υιον του θεου
36 απεκριθη εκεινος και ειπεν τις εστιν κυριε ινα πιστευσω εις αυτον
37 ειπεν δε αυτω ο ιησους και εωρακας αυτον και ο λαλων μετα σου εκεινος εστιν
38 ο δε εφη πιστευω κυριε και προσεκυνησεν αυτω
39 και ειπεν ο ιησους εις κριμα εγω εις τον κοσμον τουτον ηλθον ινα οι μη βλεποντες βλεπωσιν και οι βλεποντες τυφλοι γενωνται
40 και ηκουσαν εκ των φαρισαιων ταυτα οι οντες μετ αυτου και ειπον αυτω μη και ημεις τυφλοι εσμεν
41 ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους ει τυφλοι ητε ουκ αν ειχετε αμαρτιαν νυν δε λεγετε οτι βλεπομεν η ουν αμαρτια υμων μενει

Now why would Jesus allow this man to worship him if he were not God?

 

[Imagican]

Christ IS worthy of worship, just NOT AS GOD HIMSELF. For God IS THE FATHER and Christ IS His Son.

Solo, you offering that Thomas called Christ God has been explained over and over again. The religious order of the time called Christ the 'son of Satan', does that MAKE IT SO? Of course not. Thomas was a looser to start with. Doubted Christ and insisted upon seeing His wounds before 'believing' that He was INDEED Jesus Christ. So, that HE stated my Lord and my God means LITTLE to ANY that understand that this man was a doubter to start with. And his statement does NOT offer anything other than the description of AN EVENT, NOT who or WHAT Christ TRULY is or isn't.

Christ IS our Saviour. And there IS only ONE capable of offering such. God offered His Son to die for our sins. Christ MADE the sacrifice by following the will of God. So, you see, your reasoning is flawed. You seem to think that since there is ONLY one Saviour that Chirst MUST be God Himself. NO, Christ was given power from above. He states this. So, while God is the ONLY means of Salvation, it was through His Son that this became possible. Nice try though.

Your offering of statements by the other apostles are NOTHING but 'YOUR' interpretation of inuendo which I do not believe EVEN EXISTS. It is YOUR doctrine that forces YOU to alter the meaning behind scripture to fit YOUR doctrine. I simply accept it as offered. No effort on my part to 'change' anything to fit my doctrine. I have simply come to accept The Word AS OFFERED without 'trying' to make it fit ANYTHING.

Solo, answer me this: What does ONLY BEGOTTEN really MEAN? And NOT just Solo, ANYONE, please explain what this means.

MEC