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The Deity of Christ: His Person

D46 said:
I believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that there is but one God...not three separate Gods's residing in one . So, yes-Jesus is God and He is the Holy Ghost according to the scriptures. I don't believe in a trinity doctrine in any shape or form. The bible doesn't support such a notion.

I quit dancing years ago!
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D46
With all due respect. What does this mean????
 
D46 said:
I don't ever remember being taught or believing in three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead. Trinitarianism and Monotheism are two entirely opposite beliefs. The belief that there are three separate persons in the Godhead, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the most widely accepted definitioon of the word trinity. Separate and distinct means "not the same". Therefore, when we speak of the "trinity", we are speaking of three divine persons, each having His own personality, thoughts, etc.

If this definition is acceptabe, the term trinity would constitute a three-part Godship, or a three-God partnership. If these divine persons are coequal, coeternal, coexistent as it is commonly believed, the we have some questions to answer. Coeternal means each is as old as the other which would make the Son as old as the Father. If Jesus existed in eternity as the Son apart from the Father, then who was His mother? Common reasoning requirres that to have a Father, one must also have a mother. How did God come about having a Son in eternity? If God created Him, then there was a space of time when God was not the Father, which would necessitate a differentation of ages. See where this all can lead?

I think most likely the term, "Trinity" wasn't coined until the time of Justin Martyr and Tertullian, (who probably was the one who came up with the term), and Tatian. No doubt there were others.

Justin Martyr was the first prolific writer to clearly teach a plurality within the Godhead. He even numbered them, saying, "We reasonably worship [Jesus Christ], having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third."11 Again he said, "There is … another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them. … He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things-numerically, I mean, not (distinct) in will."

Tertullian (150-225) was the first to speak of God as a trinity, and as three persons in one substance. God is "the ‘Trinity,which consists of three persons…. God is one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons)’ (12). … The Father and the Son are ‘two separate Persons; , two different Beings, and distinct but not separate. The Son is ‘another’ from the Father on the ground of Personality, not of Substance-in the way of distinction, not of division.

Trinitarianism is inconsistent in the light of the Scriptures...

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:8 (KJV) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

There are many others. Trinitarianism is also inconsistent in it's logic. Coequality of two or more divine, almighty persons is illogical. The doctrine of Father and the Son being coeternal is illogical inasmuch as it requires the Son to be as old as the Father and the offspring to be the same age as the original. In addition, there's a problem in that it has divine person number one (the Father) and divine person number three (the Holy Ghost) both the father of divine person number two (Jesus).

There is but one Lord, one faith and one baptism. One God who sits on the throne throughtout eternity whose name is Jesus.
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Therefore, is Jesus God, and is God the Father God, and is the Holy Spirit God?
 
mutzrein said:
I am astounded at your questions. How can he be a man like us if he is the ONLY begotten son of God. I thought God had revealed all of this to you.
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As for me, I have no problem who Jesus is or who the Almighty Lord God is because the Lord God did tell us all the important facts about himself. I just ask you that question if Jesus is man or what to you because of your answer that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. But you do not want to tell us directly if Jesus is God or what. I see nothing here for you to be astounded at, is there any?

So now, tell us specifically if Jesus is God or not to you? If Jesus is not God in your perception, what then is Jesus to you as if we're again back to square one of asking which comes first, the egg or the hen?
 
p.s.
Where do you live that it is 4;30am
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I have to get up at that time...EST :)

I don't know why everyone is having a hard time understanding this. Simply put, I believe Jesus is God...no more or less. I thought I'd made that fairly clear. Perhaps I went into too great a detail. Put another way, when we all get to Heaven, and I hope we all do, there will be be ONE God there-Jesus...not three. I hope that simplifies things a bit.
 
scorpia said:
As for me, I have no problem who Jesus is or who the Almighty Lord God is because the Lord God did tell us all the important facts about himself. I just ask you that question if Jesus is man or what to you because of your answer that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. But you do not want to tell us directly if Jesus is God or what. I see nothing here for you to be astounded at, is there any?

So now, tell us specifically if Jesus is God or not to you? If Jesus is not God in your perception, what then is Jesus to you as if we're again back to square one of asking which comes first, the egg or the hen?
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Scorpia - Have you not read what I have posted ealier in this thread. Here are a couple of them.

Alright golfjack - what do you say to one such as I who says Jesus is the son of God - but not God. Am I lost in sin without hope?
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Lets start with this. In a nutshell, this is what I believe:
Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’
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Does this not tell you who I have said, Jesus is?

And what has a hen and egg got to do with anything?
 
j,

Now I thought you were willing to offer an 'honest' answer, at first. Now what you have done is go back and recant what you stated and replaced it with something that 'CAN'T' be the truth. For there is ONLY ONE way that you are able to even KNOW THE WORD TRINITY and this way is NOT THROUGH SCRIPTURE. See what a 'tricky' doctrine this 'trinity' truly is? If there were NO MAN to 'teach' you this word that is used to describe the doctrine, 'trinity' is NOT a word that you could POSSIBLY know in reference to The Word. In this respect; I rest my case. If we were in a court of law and you were on the stand offering such a statement, I don't believe that you could convince A SINGLE juror of you 'honesty' in that NO ONE 'taught' you 'trinity'.

I am NOT saying that what you offer is 'deliberate deception'. NO, I believe that it's MORE a matter of an 'overzealous' desire to defend something that IS very difficult to defend when forced to offer PROOF.

j, this is EXACTLY why I asked you the question to begin with. I didn't ask you HOW you learned of 'trinity' but WHO taught it to you. For without a 'man' to teach it to you it would be UTTERLY imposible for you to know it.

Now, you have agreed that actual PHYSICAL baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation. There ARE MANY out there that consider this statement to be blasphemous. Yet you 'seem' to understand that THIS is 'man-made' tradition that means LITTLE. I offer that 'trinity' is NO different. And the insistence, by those that accept it, that others TOO MUST accept it just goes to offer PROOF that this IS 'man-made' tradtion. That there ARE those that are UNABLE to understand that 'they' are UNABLE to dictate what IS or what IS NOT necessary for the Salvation of ANOTHER is SHEAR proof that these would RATHER follow 'man-made' tradtion than Christ through LOVE.
For there is NOTHING that one may offer another that IS capable of offering Salvation. This is NOT theirs to offer. Just as we are to judge NO ONE by what they EAT, we are NOT capable of judging another in their UNDERSTANDING of God or His Son. Isn't this OBVIOUS to ANYONE that is led by The Spirit? That there are MANY members of the SAME body for a REASON. And this reason is NOT one designed for 'personal gain'.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
j, this is EXACTLY why I asked you the question to begin with. I didn't ask you HOW you learned of 'trinity' but WHO taught it to you. For without a 'man' to teach it to you it would be UTTERLY imposible for you to know it.

I,
Have you considered this?
The Reading is from Acts of the Apostles 8:26-39

IN THOSE DAYS, an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert road. And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter or a lamb before its shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken up from the earth." And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Now, you have agreed that actual PHYSICAL baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation. There ARE MANY out there that consider this statement to be blasphemous.

Only those who believe that baptism is a man made work agree to what you've stated. Baptism is an instrument of faith and thus, it God's work, not ours. If we deny God's transforming work... well then, where does that lead us?

MEC
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Imagican said:
j,

Now I thought you were willing to offer an 'honest' answer, at first. Now what you have done is go back and recant what you stated and replaced it with something that 'CAN'T' be the truth. For there is ONLY ONE way that you are able to even KNOW THE WORD TRINITY and this way is NOT THROUGH SCRIPTURE. See what a 'tricky' doctrine this 'trinity' truly is? If there were NO MAN to 'teach' you this word that is used to describe the doctrine, 'trinity' is NOT a word that you could POSSIBLY know in reference to The Word. In this respect; I rest my case. If we were in a court of law and you were on the stand offering such a statement, I don't believe that you could convince A SINGLE juror of you 'honesty' in that NO ONE 'taught' you 'trinity'.

I am NOT saying that what you offer is 'deliberate deception'. NO, I believe that it's MORE a matter of an 'overzealous' desire to defend something that IS very difficult to defend when forced to offer PROOF.

j, this is EXACTLY why I asked you the question to begin with. I didn't ask you HOW you learned of 'trinity' but WHO taught it to you. For without a 'man' to teach it to you it would be UTTERLY imposible for you to know it.

Now, you have agreed that actual PHYSICAL baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation. There ARE MANY out there that consider this statement to be blasphemous. Yet you 'seem' to understand that THIS is 'man-made' tradition that means LITTLE. I offer that 'trinity' is NO different. And the insistence, by those that accept it, that others TOO MUST accept it just goes to offer PROOF that this IS 'man-made' tradtion. That there ARE those that are UNABLE to understand that 'they' are UNABLE to dictate what IS or what IS NOT necessary for the Salvation of ANOTHER is SHEAR proof that these would RATHER follow 'man-made' tradtion than Christ through LOVE.
For there is NOTHING that one may offer another that IS capable of offering Salvation. This is NOT theirs to offer. Just as we are to judge NO ONE by what they EAT, we are NOT capable of judging another in their UNDERSTANDING of God or His Son. Isn't this OBVIOUS to ANYONE that is led by The Spirit? That there are MANY members of the SAME body for a REASON. And this reason is NOT one designed for 'personal gain'.

MEC
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Mec mec mec
When I first joined this forum a few months back, there were some trinitarian debates going on. Now up until that point I had never joined a Christian forum. To my surprise I could not believe how much of this heresy that was being preached here. This was new new to me and I was :o I joined this forum to hang out, make new friends, pray for people in the prayer room, learn somethings all of which I have done. What I was not expecting was the Heresy being taught and preached here. At first it really bugged me and could not believe it was allowed to gone here. I could not sit back and do nothing, as to sit back and do nothing would be to deny Jesus Christ, My LORD and my GOD..

Now what does this all have to do about the above comment.

In one of my early debates with both You and this fellow called R7-12, I was asked and I am paraphrasing. When did I become a trinitarian and who taught it to me? I remember that question well because of my answer.
I said. that I never really considered my self a trinitarian because I never really thought about it, but going by what a trinitarian is then I am one.

Go back and look for it in one of my earlier debates with you guys if you like. So you see Mec, your ''trick question'' if anything was used to strenghthen my position..

I will also add that if anyone is responsible for teaching me about the doctrine of the trinity it would be Imajic (mec), Mutrein, and R7-12 because you caused me to examine these other doctrines such as unitarian, binitarian, oneness, etc and found the only way they could possibly work is by ignoring scriptures which is one thing your good at doing.
 
D46
Well, I guess you don't want to answer the question as to weather or not God created Jesus to be God or was Jesus created.

My guess is that you believe God created Jesus as God or the God or A God and Now the Father is not God or around anymore. Atleast this is what I have been able to put together by your post.
 
My guess is that you believe God created Jesus as God or the God or A God and Now the Father is not God or around anymore. Atleast this is what I have been able to put together by your post.
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:smt102 I'm confused by that statement actually..
 
One question.

Do 'trinitarians' believe that Jesus Christ IS God Himself, or simply a 'part of God'?

MEC
 
jgredline said:
That's exactly my point. I don't understand D46 answer, so this was what hs answer looks like to me.
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I spelled it out in a manner as simple as I can. Pray about it J, I think you'll get the revelation.
 
Imagican said:
One question.

Do 'trinitarians' believe that Jesus Christ IS God Himself, or simply a 'part of God'?

MEC
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The problem lies in the fact that we insist that God must do things that we are able to understand and comprehend.

When I was a child I asked the Lord about the trinity. He told me that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all God.
My response was "I don't get it but if you say so, then it is true. So God, if I don't get it but I believe it anyway just cause you said so, then how am I supposes to tell other people that it is true?"

(Hey, I wanted to join in with the confusing statements!)

The Lord told me that it is true just in the same way that water, ice and steam are the same thing only different. Any one of those three things can take the form of the other two. Each of the three things has different characteristics and functions different from the other two.

Tell me this. If you believe (as I do) that the Holy Spirit is God. How is it that the Holy Spirit can be in my heart and yours at the same time??

Some things you need to ask God if it be so, then take it by faith that it is.

My God is an awesome God!
 
Little Angel
I love reading your post. You always make allot of sense.

Mec.
Really I can't add more than Little Angel.

D46
I have read your post and sometimes they are right on and you say the right things and other times, well :roll: So I really I have a pretty good idea on what you believe. Funny though. Most people are clear on what they believe.

Although I disagree with Mec and Mutz for example, I have a ton of respect for them because they are stead fast in what they do believe. In their heads I am wrong and they are right and visa versa. Atleast we know where we stand.
With you, its dangerous because we / I have an unknown so to be safe, one or I must assume the worst. I am proud of what I believe and I have made no secret about what that is.
 
I was having lunch with a friend of mine today and we talked about going to visit differant churches that we know are cults just to have first hand knowledge of the madness that is taught.

I choose to go to the universalist church in Pasadena but he chose a Jesus Only penticostal Church. Well having studied their doctrine, He won. Jesus only or oneness penticostal churches are some of the most dangerous cults their is. They have left a trail of destruction behind them in all the lives they destroy.
Here is a little bit about this false , demonic to core teachings.

Oneness Pentecostal theology affirms that there exists only one God in all the universe. It affirms the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness theology denies the Trinity. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is one God who manifests Himself as three distinct, simultaneous persons. The Trinity does not assert that there are three gods, but only one. This is important because many groups who oppose orthodoxy, will accuse Trinitarians of believing in three gods. But this is not so. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God in three persons.
Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

Does this sound familiar to any of you? Perhaps you have had encounters with these cults. This cult is unique in that it does not deny Jesus is God, But does not acknowledge God the Father

To read more click here
http://www.carm.org/oneness/whatisoneness.htm
 
What does Oneness Pentecostal teach?

Oneness Pentecostal people are many and varied. The two main groups that hold to Oneness theology are the United Pentecostal Church International (the largest) and the United Apostolic church. There are others like the Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible Way Churches of Our Lord Jesus Christ as well as a host of independent Oneness churches scattered throughout the United States.
The following points of doctrine are generally held to by the Oneness Pentecostal groups.

To read more about this false teaching and massive cult click here.
http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessteach.htm
 
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