The Devils Believe...are they damned?

[whirlwind]

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit. So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses?

 

[Caroline H]

Demons, not people.

 

[whirlwind]

Demons, not people.

That's how I read it too but what of the question the OP asks?

 

[Caroline H]

Do you mean this question?

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

I don't believe that the term "devils" refers to people, ever. The devils he speaks of are damned, as they will be defeated with Satan by Christ. Just because James doesn't mention that they are damned in this verse doesn't mean they aren't... his purpose was to show that even the devils (demons) believe that there is a God, and they tremble, not to go into an explanation of what will happen when Christ returns.

 

[ProphetMark]

'He that believeth not shall be damned' doesn't mean He that does believe is necessarily not damned.
Unless you're mistakenly thinking that it does mean that, I can't see what's difficult to understand.

 

[whirlwind]

'He that believeth not shall be damned' doesn't mean He that does believe is necessarily not damned.
Unless you're mistakenly thinking that it does mean that, I can't see what's difficult to understand.

I believe His Word explicitely. If something is written it is there for a reason...even though it may not be understood. How can the two verses be reconciled? It is written....those that don't believe are damned and yet the devils believe. So....are they damned?

 

[jasoncran]

sighs, there's no offer of salvation to the devil/demons.

 

[whirlwind]

Do you mean this question?

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

I don't believe that the term "devils" refers to people, ever. The devils he speaks of are damned, as they will be defeated with Satan by Christ. Just because James doesn't mention that they are damned in this verse doesn't mean they aren't... his purpose was to show that even the devils (demons) believe that there is a God, and they tremble, not to go into an explanation of what will happen when Christ returns.

To me, the Bible is written by the Father as a whole. It is not to be taken as meaning one thing in one place and another in another. If it tells us that the devils believe and that unbelievers are damned then....that tells me they are not damned. Unless there is another explanation and I'm certainly open to hearing it for this doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either.

 

[Free]

'He that believeth not shall be damned' doesn't mean He that does believe is necessarily not damned.
Unless you're mistakenly thinking that it does mean that, I can't see what's difficult to understand.

I believe His Word explicitely. If something is written it is there for a reason...even though it may not be understood. How can the two verses be reconciled? It is written....those that don't believe are damned and yet the devils believe. So....are they damned?

Yes, of course they are damned. James is saying that the demons believe that there is only one God and shudder with horror (as the Greek implies). This in no way means that they are believers.

James' whole point is that if one's faith doesn't produce good works, it isn't a saving faith at all. One can believe there is only one God but that doesn't save anyone.

 

[whirlwind]

I believe His Word explicitely. If something is written it is there for a reason...even though it may not be understood. How can the two verses be reconciled? It is written....those that don't believe are damned and yet the devils believe. So....are they damned?

Yes, of course they are damned. James is saying that the demons believe that there is only one God and shudder with horror (as the Greek implies). This in no way means that they are believers.

James' whole point is that if one's faith doesn't produce good works, it isn't a saving faith at all. One can believe there is only one God but that doesn't save anyone.

You are making good points and yet....it is written the devils believe. It doesn't say they are saved but that they aren't damned. Why? Is one verse correct and the other not or...is more being said for us to understand?

 

[Free]

I believe His Word explicitely. If something is written it is there for a reason...even though it may not be understood. How can the two verses be reconciled? It is written....those that don't believe are damned and yet the devils believe. So....are they damned?

Yes, of course they are damned. James is saying that the demons believe that there is only one God and shudder with horror (as the Greek implies). This in no way means that they are believers.

James' whole point is that if one's faith doesn't produce good works, it isn't a saving faith at all. One can believe there is only one God but that doesn't save anyone.

You are making good points and yet....it is written the devils believe. It doesn't say they are saved but that they aren't damned. Why? Is one verse correct and the other not or...is more being said for us to understand?

You are not understanding my points. I clearly said that the belief that there is one God is not a saving belief. God created the demons and Satan so of course they know there is only one God.

Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark is clearly talking about believing the gospel. Two very different contexts.

This is very simple to understand. You are making it difficult because you are taking things out of context and trying to make them fit together. You must stop doing this.

 

[follower of Christ]

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit. So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses?

The question is sort of absurd.
The demons have already been convicted along with their leader and their judgment decided.
Salvation is offered to MAN, not demons.

"Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Mat 25:41 EMTV)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Rev 20:10 KJV)

.

 

[follower of Christ]

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses?

Heres a novel idea, one that has been presented to you a number of times now.
I realize its a bit out there and all, but you may want to give it a try.

LEARN some CONTEXT

.

 

[follower of Christ]

You are making good points and yet....it is written the devils believe. It doesn't say they are saved but that they aren't damned. Why? Is one verse correct and the other not or...is more being said for us to understand?

Because again youre hopping around the bible ripping out anything that SOUNDS similar even if it is in NO way related to the other.

Fact; Salvation is presented to the world of men, NOT demons who have already been cast out and their fate decided.

Knowing that FACT we INTERPRET ALL statements about 'belief' where demons are concerned as having NOTHING to do with belief unto salvation....they cannot be saved because GOD has already condemned those who rebelled.

Your threads are going more and more off into the wild green yonder, WW.
With each new topic you post I keep seeing someone whose mind is being clouded more and more...and its the result of someone who doesnt seem to WANT the truth and so will not find it but will venture further and continually down the path of error.

.

 

[whirlwind]

You are not understanding my points. I clearly said that the belief that there is one God is not a saving belief. God created the demons and Satan so of course they know there is only one God.

Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark is clearly talking about believing the gospel. Two very different contexts.

This is very simple to understand. You are making it difficult because you are taking things out of context and trying to make them fit together. You must stop doing this.

Your quote from Mark isn't corretly translated Free. The King James....

16:15 And He said unto them,, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (not whole creation)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....he that believeth not shall be damned. It doesn't say, he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. There is a distinction being made. If one believes...they are NOT damned. Or, that is what appears to be written.

I just entered another thread and it touches on this. Perhaps it is as I first wondered.....

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

Are those that aren't saved, yet aren't damned, those that follow the ways of one of these....

• John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
  
  1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Free]

Your quote from Mark isn't corretly translated Free. The King James....

16:15 And He said unto them,, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (not whole creation)

It is translated correctly but whether or not you think it is is irrelevant to the discussion.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....he that believeth not shall be damned. It doesn't say, he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. There is a distinction being made. If one believes...they are NOT damned. Or, that is what appears to be written.

No, there is no distinction being made. Again, as I have stated and you have failed to address is that there are two very different contexts between James and Mark.

Are those that aren't saved, yet aren't damned, those that follow the ways of one of these....

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

No. If they aren't saved, if they don't believe, they are damned.

 

[researcher]

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils know there is One True God...they believe but they aren't baptized in His Spirit. So, they aren't saved but...if I understand the above correctly, nor are they damned.

What if the devils mentioned by James are those that believe, believe they are of God and are not...are not truly baptized in the Spirit. They aren't saved, even though they believe they are...nor are they damned. As James was teaching about faith and works...are the devils those that believe and offer no works, here synonymous with faith?

• James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That doesn't seem to be what James is implying by his use of "devils" but...how else can one understand both verses?

Demons are spirits. Spirits can see other spirits because they are on the same plane (of existence). I'm sure they see angels when they are around. They may have even seen God. So basically, they know there is a God.

Of course, if there is the spirit of anti-Christ and it is in them (like legion had many demons all in one)
Then they would deny that Jesus came in the flesh, thus they could not fulfill Rom 10:9, lol.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[whirlwind]

Your quote from Mark isn't corretly translated Free. The King James....

16:15 And He said unto them,, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (not whole creation)

It is translated correctly but whether or not you think it is is irrelevant to the discussion.

The difference is ENORMOUS in understanding and very, very relevant.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....he that believeth not shall be damned. It doesn't say, he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. There is a distinction being made. If one believes...they are NOT damned. Or, that is what appears to be written.

No, there is no distinction being made. Again, as I have stated and you have failed to address is that there are two very different contexts between James and Mark.

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  
  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I don't see them in different contexts at all. In Mark the subject is preaching the gospel and believing in that gospel. What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ. In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God? No...they "believest that there is one God." That God is the Word, the gospel.

Are those that aren't saved, yet aren't damned, those that follow the ways of one of these....

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

No. If they aren't saved, if they don't believe, they are damned.

But Free....they believed. That is my point.

 

[Caroline H]

WW, as has been stated already, salvation is for people only, not fallen angels. The word devils refers to fallen angels, not people. There is a difference in believing that there is one God and being saved from sins. I can claim all day long that I am saved because I believe in God, but until I recognize that salvation comes through Jesus, then it doesn't matter. James was showing the reality that believing in God is not enough... salvation comes through faith in Christ, and if one has true faith then they will bear out the fruits of the Spirit. THAT is what "faith without works is dead" means.

 

[Free]

I don't see them in different contexts at all. In Mark the subject is preaching the gospel and believing in that gospel. What is the gospel? The Word. Who is the Word. Jesus Christ. In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God? No...they "believest that there is one God." That God is the Word, the gospel.

I know you don't see them in different contexts, that is the problem. Look at what you wrote: "In James the devils believe that "there is one God." Do they believe in another God?"

Believing that there is one God and believing in that one God for salvation are two completely different things.

But Free....they believed. That is my point.

They do not believe in the sense that you are saying they do. That's my point.