cybershark5886 said:
MEC,
Would you mind addressing one thing in specific for me? It would narrow down some of this debate into managable chunks. What do you make of what the Apostle John wrote in John 5:18 when he explained what Jesus had said and done by saying, "He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God". This is not a statement saying, "The Jews thought he was making himself equal with God" but that rather "He was making himself equal with God". How do you explain this verse?
God Bless,
~Josh
Cyber,
I will most certainly answer the question which you have offered. But in addition, I would as that you address this question:
John, the SAME John to which you refer ALSO wrote this:
1John:
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
And this written by the SAME man that you would propose offered that Christ IS God Himself.
So, is John a 'liar'? Or was he simply CONFUSED? Or is there a 'different understanding' that we were meant to accept other than this 'tinity' that SAYS that Jesus Christ IS God. And I could quote scripture for quite a long post that offers that 'those that DENY The Son have NOT the Spirit of God within them'. Yet, wouldn't an insistence that Christ IS God BE denying the Son? For we KNOW that God IS The Father.
Now, in answer to YOUR request:
[1] After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
[2] Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
[3] In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
[4] For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
[5] And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
[6] When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
[7] The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
[8] Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[9] And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
[10] The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
[11] He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
[12] Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
[13] And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
[14] Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
[15] The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Here is the FIRST clue as to the answer that you seek....When it was CONFIRMED to the religious order of the time that Jesus WAS indeed HEALING in the name of God. Those that were threatened MOST by having the PEOPLE BELIEVE that Christ 'may indeed' BE the messiah, were threatened to the extent that it was THEN that they decided to END this 'up-starts' influence on the people by ANY means necessary...........
[16] And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
And HERE we have the MEANS that they CHOSE to 'use against Him'.....
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
and HERE we have Christ's defense. His MEANS of eliminating their 'weapon against Him'. My FATHER works IN the Sabbath and SO TOO do I.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
It is apparent NOW that they were looking for ANY means to destroy this 'man'. His statement offered NOT that HE WAS GOD, but that BEING the SON of God, He WAS able to DO as the Father SENT Him to Do. And that HE was ABLE to discern the TRUTH behind Sabbath and INSTEAD of USING Sabbath for an EXCUSE NOT to Do GOOD works on the Sabbath, Christ, UNLIKE those that accused Him, UNDERSTOOD the REASON and PURPOSE of Sabbath BEYOND their MEAGER adherance TO IT. The authority that He offered OFFENDED those that were SIMPLY adhering to LAW without regard to 'righteousness' and this was SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE to those that WERE the 'religious LEADERS' of the PEOPLE. Everything they STOOD for was being threatned in a way that they had NEVER faced before.
Not much different than the CC's desire to destroy ANYTHING that was able to contradict their teachings. For IF it could be PROVEN that what they TEACH is WRONG, then they would NO longer be ABLE to profess divine GUIDANCE.
Christ HERE plainly showed those that were IN authority that THEY did NOT understand the Sabbath NOR were they WILLING to accept that God's SON had 'arrived'. Their 'messiah' was standing before their VERY EYES yet they, through a desire to maintain their 'STANDING' were NOT able to SEE the TRUTH.
NEVER in this ENTIRE chapter did Christ proclaim to BE God. ONLY the Son of God. Given POWER in the NAME of God to perform that which He was SENT to perform. Over and over Christ STATES that EVERYTHING that He performed was GIVEN Him BY The Father. Not ONCE taking 'personal credit' for that which he STATED or PERFORMED.
[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself, but
what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20]
For the Father loveth the Son,
and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[23]
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself;
so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27]
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[30]
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will,
but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[32] There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
[33] Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
[34] But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
[35] He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John:
for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me,
that the Father hath sent me.
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.
Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
And HERE we have admission ONCE again that NO ONE has EVER even seen the SHAPE of God Himself.....
[38] And ye have not his word abiding in you:
for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[40] And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[41] I receive not honour from men.
[42] But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[43]
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[44] How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[45]
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I have answered here what I 'think' you were asking. Now, I ask that you answer the question that I posed in a reasonalbe way.
MEC
