The Diety of Christ/Jesus is God: An Approach for Skeptics

[GraceBwithU]

Hey, I don’t have any problem with scripture. And it’s not complicated. It’s just the interpretation that you place on it.

How would you interpret John 1:1 and John 1:14?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz,

Since you brought it up first, will you be looking at the points which I directed you toward in my OP to discuss this distinction you make between equality with vs. to God? Because I would like to see ground already laid (like in the OP for example) to be covered first before we take up a "fresh" line of discussion. That would help with both the length of this thread, and also would be good for not going in circles.

Thanks,

~Josh

Sorry Josh

There is a beautiful passage in Philippians 2 which I am sure you are familiar with which speaks of the relationship between God and His Christ and incorporates the aspect of equality between them.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Let’s look at it for a moment.

It says, He “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.†Now this does not say that Jesus is God or the same as God. Being equal does not equate to being the same thing.

You know there are some fascinating instances in scripture that give us insight into things like this, so let’s take something from scripture.
It is recorded in scripture that a king or ruler would offer to a certain subject, reward because they pleased them. And what was it they offered? They were offered anything up to half of the kingdom. Now scripture records that the subject was content with far less than half the kingdom but why would a king or ruler offer up to half – and not more? You see by offering up to half they were actually making the subject equal. They would be given authority, and dominion over others of the king’s subjects, in fact, being able to stand in his place. But it did not make them the king. You see, the king exalted that subject higher than any other and the only person that did not come under their authority was the King Himself.

And this is the relationship that God, our heavenly Father, has with His son. Not that he has been given half of God’s kingdom but as one who is under subjection to His Father, Jesus is the one to whom has been given all power and authority above all else. All except Himself of course. Therefore He thought it not robbery to be equal with (but not the same as or equal to) God. And this is spelled out precisely and without any element of doubt in scripture.

Consider also what it says in Corinthians.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Is Jesus, Lord of all creation? Yes He is. Is He my Lord? Yes He is. Because His Father has exalted Him above every other. As scripture rightly says, ‘Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.’

And again this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

Now, it’s not my desire or intention to get into an academic debate over this issue. Invariably there are those who hold to one opinion and there are those who hold the other. And after all the to-ing and fro-ing they remain as they were. So the idea that I can convince another of my point of view without the revelation of God in their own heart to endorse it, is futile.

You see after coming to know the Lord some years ago I was taught the trinity – and as a young Christian I accepted it. As I matured I came to see inconsistencies which no-one had real answers for. The inconsistency was not just in the doctrine when compared with scripture but also in the people who taught it. Even when I said to my parents something like, “If you believe in a certain doctrine (and I would state it) what does this scripture mean?†(and I would quote scripture that appeared to contradict it), their response was, “The Lord hasn’t revealed everything to us. It is a mystery.â€Â

Well guess what. I asked the Lord to reveal ‘truth’ to me in whatever facet I needed it. And over time He has. Of course there is much that I don’t understand, but what the Lord has revealed to me is sufficient for my walk with him and to have an understanding of what it means to be made righteous through faith.

Blessings

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9).

Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

But did the early Christians believe this? YES! Here are some quotes:

Ignatius of Antioch: "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides: "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ€â€for he was in Godâ€â€and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

 

[mutzrein]

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9).

Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

But did the early Christians believe this? YES! Here are some quotes:

Ignatius of Antioch: "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides: "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ€â€for he was in Godâ€â€and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

Hey CC. How about writing something yourself. It seems that just about every thread I go to you are copying and pasting stuff direct from Catholic web sites it seems. I really see no point in me responding to things that are essentially not written by you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey CC. How about writing something yourself. It seems that just about every thread I go to you are copying and pasting stuff direct from Catholic web sites it seems. I really see no point in me responding to things that are essentially not written by you.

Hey M. How about responding to the thread starter instead of following me around the forum like I have a piece of gum stuck on my shoe. Every one of your posts seems to address me instead of the initial question.

 

[Imagican]

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9).

Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

But did the early Christians believe this? YES! Here are some quotes:

Ignatius of Antioch: "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides: "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ€â€for he was in Godâ€â€and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

Are you DELIBERATELY being deceptive or was this JUST a 'typographical erro'? For the Bible that I read does NOT offer the 'I am' in CAPITALIZATION as you have. The SAME method used by the CC in regards to attempts at 'turning Christ INTO God', so far as the written Word is concerned.

No different than the capitalization of the word Word to indicate a 'personal pronoun' instead of a simple offering of God's means of communication to mankind. For The Word IS how God has communicated His wishes to mankind since the 'beginning'. Not UNTIL the Word became flesh was it indicative of the personage of Christ. And this being MORE symbolic than literal. For Christ HIMSELF stated that the words that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM by The Father, (God).

So, for Christ to state that before Abraham was I am does NOT indicate in ANY WAY that Christ IS God Himself. It is a simple admission that BEFORE Abraham existed Christ existed.

But it's OBVIOUS that the concept of Christ AS God MUST be maintained by the CC for it to be able to justify it's many many 'false beliefs' and 'teachings'. Such as 'Mary; the mother of God', 'trinity', etc..............

Why is it SO difficult to simply accept WHO Christ STATED He was/IS? Instead of insistance upon offering the philosophical teachings of men bent on the desire to 'be FOLLOWED'? We were told that there would 'come those' that would INSIST on offering 'doctrines' DIFFERENT than that taught by the apostles. Warned that durring the time of the apostles this had ALREADY begun to 'take place'. Like wolves these would end up making merchandise of those that they were able to influence to follow them. I think it's pretty clear WHO the apostles were refering to.

Paul warned that we ARE to follow HIS example. He worked with his OWN hands and used this money for HIS support and for the support of The Church. Yet we see the CC 'using' the congregation for it's OWN support and then finding that what they gave WILLINGLY not to be enough so then offered NEW creative ways to obtain EVEN MORE through the use of pergatory, indulgences, etc............... bribery, threat, murder, etc................ If this is NOT 'making merchandise' of the flock then I am confused as to exactly WHAT 'merchandise' means.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Are you DELIBERATELY being deceptive or was this JUST a 'typographical erro'? For the Bible that I read does NOT offer the 'I am' in CAPITALIZATION as you have.

Is that a joke? Did the original greek papyrus have upper case and lower case? LOL. If thats the best you can do, don't quit your day job to become an exegete.

Jesus was God, the Second Person of the Trinity become incarnate. All Christians believe this.

 

[Devekut]

Jesus says "before Abraham was I am"

This is a clear identification with the Deity.

We know that this is the name that God has revealed to Moses, "tell the people "I am" has sent you".

Secondly, if Jesus was using this to establish his mere pre-existence he would not have used the present tense. He would have said "before Abraham was, I was". To say "I am" would be otherwise poor grammar and he would have had his tenses confused.

The obvious meaning of this passage is that Jesus is using the name of God for himself.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey CC. How about writing something yourself. It seems that just about every thread I go to you are copying and pasting stuff direct from Catholic web sites it seems. I really see no point in me responding to things that are essentially not written by you.

Hey M. How about responding to the thread starter instead of following me around the forum like I have a piece of gum stuck on my shoe. Every one of your posts seems to address me instead of the initial question.

LOL. Actually I did post prior to your 1st post in this thread. I thought that the post you made was in response to me. I guess I was mistaken.

But actually it's the deluge of cut and pastes that you are making that provokes me to ask questions. And who know's one of these days you might pay attention to the gum on your shoe long enough to pick it up and chew on it - even though the thought is repulsive. :-?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But actually it's the deluge of cut and pastes that you are making that provokes me to ask questions. And who know's one of these days you might pay attention to the gum on your shoe long enough to pick it up and chew on it - even though the thought is repulsive....

SOMETIMES I cut and paste, true. If I find something that says exactly what I think, and says it probably better than I can, why not? I'm a crappy typist, and I hate typing.

"God gave us the computer, let us enjoy it". (Sorry. That's an inside Catholic joke. Look up Pope Leo X.)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The opening question also ties in with the Trinity. They pretty much go hand in hand. Has anyone ever read the Summa Theologia by St Thomas Aquinas?

 

[mutzrein]

Hey, I don’t have any problem with scripture. And it’s not complicated. It’s just the interpretation that you place on it.

How would you interpret John 1:1 and John 1:14?

Jesus is the Word of God. He is the avenue through which God has spoken and has brought everything into being.

And just as my word reflects who I am, so God’s word reflects God. As my word comes from my heart and therefore shows who I am so I can say that my word is me. And as the Word of God emanates from the heart of the Father so it is absolutely correct to say that the Word is God. Because it is the word (which is the reflection of the Father) that shows us God. But this is different to saying that Jesus is God.

Just as the word that proceeds out of my mouth reflects me, it (the word) is not actually me because I am the one who is causing it to be spoken. The word is created in obedience to my will. So there are two entities. Me AND my word. So it is again with God. There are two entities. One is God and the other is his Word. And so we can also say that the Word is WITH God.

So as John says, the Word IS God (in the sense that is represents or reflects Him) and the word is WITH God (in the sense that God is one entity and His Word is another.)

So Jesus, being the Word of God, can rightly proclaim, “before Abraha was I AMâ€Â

 

[Imagican]

Are you DELIBERATELY being deceptive or was this JUST a 'typographical erro'? For the Bible that I read does NOT offer the 'I am' in CAPITALIZATION as you have.

Is that a joke? Did the original greek papyrus have upper case and lower case? LOL. If thats the best you can do, don't quit your day job to become an exegete.

Jesus was God, the Second Person of the Trinity become incarnate. All Christians believe this.

Wow! So, for one to BE a 'follower' of Christ one MUST 'believe' that He IS 'part' of a 'man-made' concept that HE 'never' mentioned? Neither HE nor any of His apostles.

Beware of the 'accusations' that you mutter my friend. You are UNABLE to 'offend' me 'personally' for I don't know you nor are YOU ABLE to 'take away' the gift that has been offered NO MATTER what 'words' you use. And the 'church' that you follow NO LONGER has the power to 'force ME' or anyone else to follow their teachings. But you 'ARE' able to offend our Creator in the words that you mutter and the accusations that you fling about as if they were 'weapons' of some sort.

You're 'precious trinity' is NOTHING other than a 'man-made' concept wrought through philosophical 'mumbo jumbo' that the CC had to FORCE many to accept and murder those that wouldn't.

And your feeble attempt to offer that Jesus STATED that He WAS/IS God is nothing other than 'personal' interpretation. Saying I am does NOT equate to I AM GOD. Regardless of what you have been "taught", it was simply an offering that He 'pre-existed' the appearance of Abraham.

But I DO find it 'amusing' that YOU would offer His statement with a 'capital' A instead of actually offering a 'quote' from the Bible. For even the book created by the CC doesn't offer this as a 'capital' A. So I assume the answer to my question is that YOU did offer this 'alteration' as 'deception'? Nice try but it didn't work.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Hey, I don’t have any problem with scripture. And it’s not complicated. It’s just the interpretation that you place on it.

How would you interpret John 1:1 and John 1:14?

those that witnessed Christ's appearance DID see The Father's Son. Do you HONESTLY think that Jesus would have been SO deceptive throughout His ministry to tell EVERYONE of His Father and then STATE that HE IS THE Father? Since Christ was/IS the ONLY Begotten, to look upon Him would BE to see that which REPRESENTED The Father.

Look, the Word cannot contradict itself or it's TOTALLY invalid. So, if it SEEMS to contradict itself there MUST be mis-interpretation. It's really that simply. And if your 'belief' or 'theology' contradicts what has been offered in understanding then you are obviously mistaken in understanding.

Jesus NEVER stated that He WAS/IS God. Not once. And IF He were the Father Grace, explain to me these words: 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'. Wouldn't He, (if He were indeed The Father, have stated, "I forgive you"?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Wow! So, for one to BE a 'follower' of Christ one MUST 'believe' that He IS 'part' of a 'man-made' concept.....

Is this man made:

John 20:28, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...And your feeble attempt to offer that Jesus STATED that He WAS/IS God is nothing other than 'personal' interpretation....

Sorry, I don't do 'personal' interpretations: That is a violation of Scripture:

2 Peter 1:20: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

I give the interpreation of the Church,the interpreation of the Councils, the interpreation of the Eastern Orthodox, the interpreation of mainline protestantism, the interpreation of the Early Church Fathers, the interpreation of the 2000 year Christian Tradition.

You give ME the interpreation of the Jehovas Witnesses. Case Closed.

 

[mutzrein]

...And your feeble attempt to offer that Jesus STATED that He WAS/IS God is nothing other than 'personal' interpretation....

Sorry, I don't do 'personal' interpretations: That is a violation of Scripture:

2 Peter 1:20: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

I give the interpreation of the Church,the interpreation of the Councils, the interpreation of the Eastern Orthodox, the interpreation of mainline protestantism, the interpreation of the Early Church Fathers, the interpreation of the 2000 year Christian Tradition.

You give ME the interpreation of the Jehovas Witnesses. Case Closed.

MEC a JW!!?? :-D

You know this is the trouble with Christendom . . . be it Catholic, protestant, orthodox, JW whatever. If it based on 'interpretation' it is of the intellect (the flesh) and can only ever lead to self righteousness. Revelation on the other hand is of the Spirit.

What would you say is my interpretation then? Or is revelation?

 

[Imagican]

Mutz,

I would offer that you are 'divinely inspired'. Not ONLY in your understanding or interpretation of The Word, but in matters of LOVE and patience as well. While I do not WHOLLY agree with your interpretation of The "Word" so far as a 'name for Christ', I believe that you are WELL aware of the TRUTH so far as The SON is concerned.

You have offered this understanding about as clearly as CAN be offered through 'words'. Christ IS the 'representative of God' sent to this planet to fulfill the WILL of God. God IS 'the Father'. It doesn't get much simpler than this. And you seem to understand it 'perfectly'.

What took place previous to man's 'creation' is irrelevant at this time and stage of our developement. In time we will certainly understand this as well.

And I am not simply 'pulling your chain'. You have demonstrated over and over again the attributes that we have been TOLD would COME from an 'acceptance of Christ' into one's heart. The example 'is there', all it takes is for those that are witness to it to 'recognize it'.

We are NOT to be perfect folks. ONLY in an 'understanding of the LOVE that God is willing to SHARE with US'. But to 'create' false interpretation or false 'Christs' is to turn 'against God' and His Son. Christ OPENLY offered His identity to ALL who witnessed His presence. We have this NOW written in the words of the Gospels. Do we ACCEPT what is offered, or do we 'make up' what we would CHOOSE these words to mean?

It seems that the Greeks and Romans weren't SATISFIED with simple 'acceptance' of 'what was offered' and were INSISTANT upon some DEEPER understanding. Christ STATED that it would be those with the innocence and understanding of CHILDREN that would BE the ones to ACCEPT what He had to offer. And this 'Jesus IS God' thing is WAY beyond the ability of a 'child' to understand. Heck, I haven't even found TWO that DO 'believe' in this 'jesus IS God' thing that were in agreement with each other. And so far as 'trinity' is concerned...........Boy, the definitions are as varied as the people that claim it.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

... If it based on 'interpretation' it is of the intellect (the flesh) and can only ever lead to self righteousness. Revelation on the other hand is of the Spirit. What would you say is my interpretation then? Or is revelation?

Well, men wrote it, and men must read it. So, who is the final interpreter of scripture: The Church, or the individual? (I think you already know MY answer.)

 

[Imagican]

How about this:

Can I get a straight answer to a 'straight forward question'? From ANYONE?

The question is this: Who wrote I John? Was it the SAME author that penned the Gospel of John?

MEC