Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Difference betray and denial
- Thread starter abide
- Start date
smaller
Member
Our sin isn't any better than the sin of Judas or Peter. Romans 3:9, Gal. 3:22.
Wrg1405
Member
Great question.
What I don't fully get, given what we know from the bible is that Judas's betrayal was prophesied as I understand it.
Zechariah 11:12-13
Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.
I have no idea whether Judas was repentant or not. What we do think is that he felt so bad, so guilty he killed himself.
In order to fulfill, the above prophesy someone had to carry it out. That was Judas. To me it seems a bit harsh.
God gives breath to human with a view to fulfilling a prophesy that sends them to hell.
I'm not questioning God and his ways.
We know that God hardened Pharos heart.
Does he know the heart of man before he is born? If so does he know that know matter what he reveals about himself would not make a difference, free will and all that?
Therefore he says "Ok your refusal/rejection I will use to serve my purpose for my people"
Great question and I'm sure it will open up a good debate.
smaller
Member
Yes, Judas did repent, knowing he betrayed innocent blood. Matt. 27:3-4. The priest class dismissed his repentance telling him it was his problem, not theirs.
It was Gods Own Will to turn the entire cast of perps against Jesus. Acts 4:26-28. Written about in the O.T., Psalm 41 regarding Judas specifically for example, long before any of them showed up to participate. A 3 time denial by Peter and a betrayal by Judas would seem to carry an equal measure of sin. But even in "scattering" the sheep and smiting the Shepherd, we should realize that it really was GODS OWN WILL in actions of all those events. Matt. 26:31, Mark 4:27.
Had it been any of us, the same things would have transpired, regardless.
smaller
Member
We are so USED to the priest classes today, and who have for centuries now RAILED against Judas, demanding he is or will be in hell that we just take it for granted.
If we read, upon closer inspection, we'll see Judas was a "sheep" from Matt. 10:16, and even more startling to some, if they do their scriptural homework THEMSELVES rather than take some other person's word for it, this fact, which fact includes JUDAS:
Matt. 10:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Did Jesus lose this sheep? I personally don't think so and we have no hard written evidence that Judas is in or will be in hell whatsoever. Jesus laid down His Life, for His Sheep, of which Judas was one.
Don't believe everything people tell you about Judas. Think for yourself and READ "as it is written."
Luke 6:37 is given to us for this reason. Be careful what you think, lest it fall upon YOU.
If we read, upon closer inspection, we'll see Judas was a "sheep" from Matt. 10:16, and even more startling to some, if they do their scriptural homework THEMSELVES rather than take some other person's word for it, this fact, which fact includes JUDAS:
Matt. 10:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Did Jesus lose this sheep? I personally don't think so and we have no hard written evidence that Judas is in or will be in hell whatsoever. Jesus laid down His Life, for His Sheep, of which Judas was one.
Don't believe everything people tell you about Judas. Think for yourself and READ "as it is written."
Luke 6:37 is given to us for this reason. Be careful what you think, lest it fall upon YOU.
Wrg1405
Member
Matthew 27:3-4
Judas Hangs Himself
Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”
And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!”
Remorseful but not repentant, two different things. Does remorse lead to repentance? If Godly remorse then yes it does. That allows the Holy Spirit to work in us and manifest his fruit in us.
civilwarbuff
Member
It could be seen as a confession of his sin......not just remorse.......
Wrg1405
Member
To be honest I agree.
But I think where confusion reigns is that Smaller quotes KJV which states repent and NKJV quotes remorseful.
Smaller not getting at you.
Today's church therefor says he is in hell but neglect his words "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood" and depending on what bible translation you read that will settle on your mind.
So in my mind I'll leave it up to God. Is Judas in heaven or not. That's not my place to state and presume. Even though I have my thoughts.
Last edited:
abide
Member
I wanted responses and I am getting them.
How do you understand this scripture?
Matthew 26. 24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him, but woe unto this man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had never been born.
Wrg1405
Member
I'm interested to hear how people interpret this scripture, not read it and accept it on face value.
Jesus speaks of his forordained plan and all the sufferings he would go through that had been predicted.
They all had to be fulfilled.
Speaking of Judas, one who Jesus says "woe to that man", we can look at Mark 14:21, Luke 6:24, and John 17:12.
Jesus then reproves the person spoken of in verse 23.
smaller
Member
I don't think the entry of Satan himself into Judas was a picnic for Judas. But to see only Judas and neither Satan's entry and placement of betrayal in his heart, or Gods Will in the events, is not accurate to the scriptures. Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27, Acts 4:26-28. I might suggest Judas was blindsided just as Peter was in Matt. 16:23, where Satan is rebuked "in Peter."
Sound judgment requires the sights of all the parties, of which there are 3.
Judge the sin of Judas as we would our own. That's the only fair standard to apply. 1 John 3:8
.
Judas was a picture of the world befriending Jesus for gain, he was never born of God (a son of eternal punishment - perdition), and among the twelve that scripture would be fulfilled.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Unlike Judas, Peter though denying Jesus was born of God (a son of eternal life).
Merry Christmas Sister abide.
Judas was a picture of the world befriending Jesus for gain, he was never born of God (a son of eternal punishment - perdition), and among the twelve that scripture would be fulfilled.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Unlike Judas, Peter though denying Jesus was born of God (a son of eternal life).
Merry Christmas Sister abide.
smaller
Member
.
Judas was a picture of the world befriending Jesus for gain, he was never born of God (a son of eternal punishment - perdition), and among the twelve that scripture would be fulfilled.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Unlike Judas, Peter though denying Jesus was born of God (a son of eternal life).
Merry Christmas Sister abide.
IF Judas was the son of perdition referenced by Jesus, Judas being long dead by the time Paul brings up the "son of perdition" AGAIN in 2 Thes. linking that "son of perdition" to that Wicked, Satan, some might see who the son of perdition really is: 2 Thes. 2:3 & 2 Thes. 2:8-9. In the middle of that segment Paul inserts the "mystery of iniquity." And it is indeed a mystery because the principle player in sin is and remains "unseen." 1 John 3:8, and seldom seen or admitted to as being implicated. That WICKED is Satan, not Judas.
John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Eph. 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
If not associated in deception and both Satan and Judas being destined to the Lake of Fire which is eternal punishment, it still does not change the fact that Judas was not saved and Peter was. My thoughts anyhow.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
.
Judas was a picture of the world befriending Jesus for gain, he was never born of God (a son of eternal punishment - perdition), and among the twelve that scripture would be fulfilled.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Unlike Judas, Peter though denying Jesus was born of God (a son of eternal life).
Merry Christmas Sister abide.
This is Calvinism. Nothing in scripture says Judas was the one to betray Jesus. It could have been any number of the many that followed him to fulfill scripture. If God designed failure, then what does that say about God? Even Satan, God "FOUND" iniquity in him and Satan was not created to be a failure.
The devil entered Judas once He made up his mind to willfully betray Jesus. Does He become a Son of perdition then? Or Jesus said one of you is a devil, was this a statement of fact, or Jesus knowing something about Judas?
These are good questions, but there would need to be specific evidence to make God out to be unfair. I don't find enough evidence. Even Pharoah, God was Longsurffering with Him, but eventually you can be made an example of.
I think there is more spiritual revelation here than just throwing it into a doctrine of man called Calvinism.
Blessings.
Mike.
smaller
Member
That's entirely guesswork. No scripture states such.
it still does not change the fact that Judas was not saved and Peter was. My thoughts anyhow.
Here's what we do KNOW about Judas from "as it is written."
Judas a chosen disciple
Judas was an Apostle
Judas was given power by Jesus to cast out devils, heal and preach
Judas "obeyed" Jesus in those commands
Judas preached the truth
Judas was given understanding from Jesus
Judas was a sheep
The Spirit of the Father of Judas spoke through Judas
Judas was ordained
Judas would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel
Judas was given the Kingdom of God as a disciple
and Judas was judged, at least by Peter, to be a believer
Judas was entered by Satan and the devil, Satan, put betrayal in his heart
Matt. 10:1-2, Matt. 10:7, Matt. 10:16, Matt. 10:20, Matt. 19:27-29, Mark 3:14, Mark 4:9-11, Mark 6:12-13, Luke 6:20, Luke 8:10, John 6:66-69.
So at what POINT do we realize that it was GODS WILL to turn people, including Judas, against Jesus?
Zech. 13:7, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:7, Acts 4:26-28.
Not all the sheep had the same form of scattering. But that scattering was from God. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Peter even went so far as to swearing he wouldn't DENY Jesus, and ended up denying Jesus 3 times. Kind of proves the point that NO MAN sways what GOD SAYS. Judas betrayed him. But they were all "offended and scattered."
Matt. 26:
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
They ALL FORSOOK JESUS. Where is the OUTRAGE for all the others?!-
Eugene said: ↑
If not associated in deception and both Satan and Judas being destined to the Lake of Fire which is eternal punishment,
Brother smaller, I reckon I would have to ask if all that fail God are referred as Sons of Perdition and used by God to fulfill scripture as God knows His own prior to the foundation of the world according to Eph 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world . . Is this just another presentation to show how a person can lose their salvation which is primarily the OP of another open thread? Take it for what you will, but I believe I have eternal life.
If not associated in deception and both Satan and Judas being destined to the Lake of Fire which is eternal punishment,
What do you think the word "Perdition is?"
Brother smaller, I reckon I would have to ask if all that fail God are referred as Sons of Perdition and used by God to fulfill scripture as God knows His own prior to the foundation of the world according to Eph 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world . . Is this just another presentation to show how a person can lose their salvation which is primarily the OP of another open thread? Take it for what you will, but I believe I have eternal life.
smaller
Member
The assumption made is that Judas was the son of perdition. Scripture does not make that claim.