The "EVENTS" of salvation.

[Cygnus]

No fuss on my part either, but

we are sanctified, having been set into Christ:
1Co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

and we are glorified, having been set into Christ:
Rom 8:30 "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

[Added
These verses speak of our being glorified now through suffering, and a future glorification awaiting us: Rom 8:17-18 "And if children, also heirs; truly heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together. For I calculate that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to compare to the coming glory to be revealed in us."]

Both sanctification and glorification accompany our justification in Christ, they are inseparable.

After being set into Christ, our initial sanctification, we are now currently undergoing a sanctification process, and at a future time at Christ's Second Coming, we will be fully sanctified.

The same is similar with glorification; after being set into Christ, our initial glorification having been raised with Him and seated with Him in the heavenlies, we will in the future be fully glorified at His Second Coming.

With all kindness, I do not think you would have made your statement above if you understood what 'to sanctify' and 'to glorify' means. Perhaps an in-depth word study would help you understand more of who you are, having been set into Christ.

It's obvious as christians we haven't been sanctified...as we still sin. The same can be said with glorification.
Yes the Bible presents us in a description of sanctified or glorified...but I think we must understand it according to the proper tense. I was looking at it as our final position...and the sense in which you presented it is true that ia the initial event.

 

[Gregg T]

This scripture supports the idea that the Holy Spirit is not necessarily given at the moment when one believes, otherwise Paul would not have asked them, did you receive, when you believed.

Example: ... prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17


These folks had received the Gospel, and had been baptized in water, but had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.


JLB

Regarding Acts 19:4 they had been baptized into John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance, not a baptism into Christ. They had not yet believed in Jesus Christ.

Act 19:5 "And hearing, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus." Paul had to explain the Gospel to them, and then having heard the Gospel they believed in Jesus. The baptism in the versa above was not necessarily in water, but likely the saving baptism of the Spirit where He entereded into them, and they into the Lord Jesus. This is the Spirit entering into believers, saving them.

After that, in Act 19:6, the Spirit came upon them, (not into them),. Paul layed his hands on them, for which the "Holy Spirit came on (Greek epl, meaning 'upon'), and they spoke in languages and prophesied."

 

[Gregg T]

It's obvious as christians we haven't been sanctified...as we still sin. The same can be said with glorification.
Yes the Bible presents us in a description of sanctified or glorified...but I think we must understand it according to the proper tense. I was looking at it as our final position...and the sense in which you presented it is true that ia the initial event.

When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently.
We are justified throughout our lives at certain times.
We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers.

We were saved, permanently, when we believed into Christ.
We are now being saved, continually, untill Christ returns.
We will be saved, in total, (body, soul, and spirit), at Christ's Return.

We were sanctified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
We are now being sanctified, continually, as Christ works in us, as we mature.
We will be sanctified, in full, at Christ's Second Coming.

We were glorified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
Christ is glorified in us, and we in Him, as we minister to Him.
We will be glorified, our entire being, at Christ's Second Coming /Rapture.

 

[billybalke]

When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently.
We are justified throughout our lives at certain times.
We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers.

We were saved, permanently, when we believed into Christ.
We are now being saved, continually, untill Christ returns.
We will be saved, in total, (body, soul, and spirit), at Christ's Return.

We were sanctified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
We are now being sanctified, continually, as Christ works in us, as we mature.
We will be sanctified, in full, at Christ's Second Coming.

We were glorified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
Christ is glorified in us, and we in Him, as we minister to Him.
We will be glorified, our entire being, at Christ's Second Coming /Rapture.

Where is the scripture which says we believe into Christ?

 

[WIP]

When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently.
We are justified throughout our lives at certain times.
We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers.

We were saved, permanently, when we believed into Christ.
We are now being saved, continually, untill Christ returns.
We will be saved, in total, (body, soul, and spirit), at Christ's Return.

We were sanctified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
We are now being sanctified, continually, as Christ works in us, as we mature.
We will be sanctified, in full, at Christ's Second Coming.

We were glorified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
Christ is glorified in us, and we in Him, as we minister to Him.
We will be glorified, our entire being, at Christ's Second Coming /Rapture.

I would be interested in some clarification. You seem to be contradicting yourself a little.
For example you wrote, "When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently."

And then you wrote, "We are justified throughout our lives at certain times."

And then you further wrote, "We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers."

Which is it? Wasn't the permanent part in your first statement really permanent? You did kind of the same thing in all of the examples you presented. It's confusing.

 

[JLB]

Act 19:5 "And hearing, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus." Paul had to explain the Gospel to them, and then having heard the Gospel they believed in Jesus. The baptism in the versa above was not necessarily in water, but likely the saving baptism of the Spirit where He entereded into them, and they into the Lord Jesus. This is the Spirit entering into believers, saving them.

I agree that they were not water Baptized again, as the Baptism of John was from Heaven and perfectly valid.

This of course is not the point.

The point is Paul's question.

If receiving the Spirit was automatic at believing, then why would Paul ask them if they had received when they believed, which my example perfectly covers.

Example: ... prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17


These folks had received the Gospel, [Believed] and had been baptized in water, but had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently.
We are justified throughout our lives at certain times.
We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers.

We were saved, permanently, when we believed into Christ.
We are now being saved, continually, untill Christ returns.
We will be saved, in total, (body, soul, and spirit), at Christ's Return.

We were sanctified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
We are now being sanctified, continually, as Christ works in us, as we mature.
We will be sanctified, in full, at Christ's Second Coming.

We were glorified, permanently, when we were set into Christ.
Christ is glorified in us, and we in Him, as we minister to Him.
We will be glorified, our entire being, at Christ's Second Coming /Rapture.

Thank you for that detail. I agree.

1st John 3:2. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

 

[Cygnus]

If receiving the Spirit was automatic at believing, then why would Paul ask them if they had received when they believed, which my example perfectly covers.

Wasn't the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers a new thing? How else would God roll it out?

 

[Gregg T]

I would be interested in some clarification. You seem to be contradicting yourself a little.
For example you wrote, "When we believed into Christ, we were justified, that is we were accounted His righteousness permanently."

And then you wrote, "We are justified throughout our lives at certain times."

And then you further wrote, "We will be justified, at the White Throne Judgement of believers."

Which is it? Wasn't the permanent part in your first statement really permanent? You did kind of the same thing in all of the examples you presented. It's confusing.

Not which is it, but all.

After a vision, Abram believed and the Lord acounted it to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6), this before he was circumcised, and before the Lord changed his name to Abraham; Abram was justified by the Lord. I understand he was saved when he believed as a result of that encounter. Gen 15:6 "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

James speaks of another time when Abraham was justified, not as Abram but as Abraham, and this because of his faith surrounding the events of sacrificing Isaac. "Was not our father Abraham justified by {correctly translated 'out from'} works offering up his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21). What work? A work of obedience, "because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18). And so I said in my post, 'We are justified throughout our lives at certain times'; by obedience because of faith, because faith withouth this kind / type of work is dead. The converse to this is being judged, not for acts of obedience, but acts requiring discipline (1Cor 11:32).

Justification at the judgement of believers {which in error in my previos post I referred to as the White Throne Judgement} is a little more complicated, and would require a very long response. But in short, I base my understanding of future justification partially on these verses: Rev 19:8, Rev 3:4-5, Rev 3:18, 1Cor 1:8, 1Cor 3:13-15, Philipians 1:6-10, 1Thes 3:13, 5:23-24, Heb 11:6, Rev 15:2.

 

[Gregg T]

Where is the scripture which says we believe into Christ?

Have you asked that before, because it sounds familiar? Perhaps it was Nathan.

Many translations use the words 'believe in Christ, in Jesus' where the Greek text uses the words 'believe into Christ'. And this is a more exact representation of what happens when we believe; because we are put into / set into / united with Christ spiritually.

Consider reading a literal translation of the Bible, or an interlinear English-Greek Bible. I think you will discover, with a little digging and some deep word studies, some great things about the Lord and the life that He has giben to us.

 

[JLB]

Wasn't the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers a new thing? How else would God roll it out?

Baptism with the Holy Spirit for the first time is always new for every believer, and has not changed.

Baptism with water was new for all believers, also and has not changed.


JLB

 

[billybalke]

Have you asked that before, because it sounds familiar? Perhaps it was Nathan.

Many translations use the words 'believe in Christ, in Jesus' where the Greek text uses the words 'believe into Christ'. And this is a more exact representation of what happens when we believe; because we are put into / set into / united with Christ spiritually.

Consider reading a literal translation of the Bible, or an interlinear English-Greek Bible. I think you will discover, with a little digging and some deep word studies, some great things about the Lord and the life that He has giben to us.

Have you asked that before, because it sounds familiar? Perhaps it was Nathan.

Many translations use the words 'believe in Christ, in Jesus' where the Greek text uses the words 'believe into Christ'. And this is a more exact representation of what happens when we believe; because we are put into / set into / united with Christ spiritually.

Consider reading a literal translation of the Bible, or an interlinear English-Greek Bible. I think you will discover, with a little digging and some deep word studies, some great things about the Lord and the life that He has giben to us.

What is the LITV? I must confess I have a difficulty accepting your position on this. God bless.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are five requirements to Salvation

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10

2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15

3. Faith - John 3:14-18

4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8

5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

 

[Nathan]

Have you asked that before, because it sounds familiar? Perhaps it was Nathan.

Many translations use the words 'believe in Christ, in Jesus' where the Greek text uses the words 'believe into Christ'. And this is a more exact representation of what happens when we believe; because we are put into / set into / united with Christ spiritually.

Consider reading a literal translation of the Bible, or an interlinear English-Greek Bible. I think you will discover, with a little digging and some deep word studies, some great things about the Lord and the life that He has giben to us.

I don't think I have asked the same question.

I probably have asked where it states we are only put into Christ after we believe. Because as far as I have ever seen, and know, we are put into Christ by God and we then have the ability to believe after we are given life.

Dead people can't believe, only people who are alive.

Col 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

When read grammatically, we see that God made us alive together with Him by canceling the record of debt that stood against us. He did this at the cross. That is generally accepted as happening long before any of us have believed in it.

That is why it is said, that those who believe in Christ will be saved. Not that they will be saved because of their belief.

 

[billybalke]

I don't think I have asked the same question.

I probably have asked where it states we are only put into Christ after we believe. Because as far as I have ever seen, and know, we are put into Christ by God and we then have the ability to believe after we are given life.

Dead people can't believe, only people who are alive.

Col 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

When read grammatically, we see that God made us alive together with Him by canceling the record of debt that stood against us. He did this at the cross. That is generally accepted as happening long before any of us have believed in it.

That is why it is said, that those who believe in Christ will be saved. Not that they will be saved because of their belief.

What about Col.2:12 which precedes vs. 13,14?

 

[markathome]

There's people who believe in Vampires, Witches, Werewolves, Loch Ness, etc
You are NOT saved by belief?
You are NOT saved by belief in the Supernatural?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a Devil?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a God?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a Allah?
You are ...........,....... by belief in that the Movie you saw of the "Passion of the Christ" is a true story?
You are ............,...... by belief in that the Movie you saw of the "Story of Jesus Cartoon" is a true story?
You are ........ Saved by belief when you do the act in Acts 4:12 Romans 10:13 Philippians 2:9

 

[Nathan]

What about Col.2:12 which precedes vs. 13,14?

Well, lets just post the passage in there for examination.

Col 2:8-12
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, (vs 12)having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

We see that we were buried with Him in baptism, in which also we were raised with Him - through faith - which we see is the powerful working of God.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith is God's work in us. When He gives us faith, we have the ability to believe and choose. This is only possible because in Christ our sins are covered. We have the ability to believe because He gave it to us by making us alive in Christ.

A person either accepts this forgiveness of sins based totally on the work of Christ, or they reject it. You cannot base forgiveness of sins, being made alive in Christ, being redeemed from sin - on something you do. It is not based on our belief, we believe(or do not) because it is already done.

Peter understood what faith was. He knew he could walk on water only after Christ commanded him. We cannot believe(have faith) in Christ until God commands us to. God does not command dead people to do things. He makes us alive in Christ, and commands us to believe. We either obey, or disobey the commandment.

Act 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

You cannot repent - turn away from something, to something else - if you are not alive and not without knowing what it is you are doing. When we believe, it is because God has set before us the reality of what He has done. When we do not believe, we deny what He has done for us.

 

[Gregg T]

I don't think I have asked the same question.

I probably have asked where it states we are only put into Christ after we believe. Because as far as I have ever seen, and know, we are put into Christ by God and we then have the ability to believe after we are given life.

Dead people can't believe, only people who are alive.

Col 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

When read grammatically, we see that God made us alive together with Him by canceling the record of debt that stood against us. He did this at the cross. That is generally accepted as happening long before any of us have believed in it.

That is why it is said, that those who believe in Christ will be saved. Not that they will be saved because of their belief.

What is it in Col 2:13-14 that causes you to assume dead people can not believe? By 'dead' you mean unsaved?

 

[Gregg T]

There's people who believe in Vampires, Witches, Werewolves, Loch Ness, etc
You are NOT saved by belief?
You are NOT saved by belief in the Supernatural?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a Devil?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a God?
You are NOT saved by belief in that there is a Allah?
You are ...........,....... by belief in that the Movie you saw of the "Passion of the Christ" is a true story?
You are ............,...... by belief in that the Movie you saw of the "Story of Jesus Cartoon" is a true story?
You are ........ Saved by belief when you do the act in Acts 4:12 Romans 10:13 Philippians 2:9

Regarding Romans 10:13, what does it mean to you to call upon the Lord?

 

[Gregg T]

What is the LITV? I must confess I have a difficulty accepting your position on this. God bless.

LITV is the Literal Translation Version. It is not a flawless translation, but for the most part, it gives a more literal translation of the Greek New Testament words. I would not recommend it for the Old Testament.

I would encourage you to consult with your pastor, or with a seminary Greek language professor, about my comment. If not, consult a Greek lexicon or grammar book.