The fall of Lucifer/Satan

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But no facts!

The only real fact anyone has contributed to the Holy Satan theory, seeing that the term HOLY as applied to Satan doesn't exist, is an angelic (which term, angel, is also applied to evil angels) being that was created "perfect"

Unfortunately such readers always fail to consider that "perfect" is very much qualified as:

A. Not even in the ball park as Perfect as God

and

B. perfect in "all thy ways"

Short version, a perfect devil

It will remain a big leap to claim Satan as perfect or Holy, particularly when seeing iniquity was "in him"

It's a rather strange claim to begin with in any case, seeing that our first treat to Satan in the scriptures is as a tempter in the Garden. Those who claim Holy Satan have some other existence of Satan before the narratives start where Satan was supposedly Holy, but that is a leap of substantial proportions into the unwritten undisclosed arena, that doesn't really exist in scripture

 

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yes, but it seems you are blinded to the difference as you refuse he scriptures you have been given.

I refuse no scripture

I also refuse to insert terms that don't exist in scripture

 

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Did God not make you in His image when He knitted you together in your mothers womb? Was part of His image evil in what He has created in angels and humans?..............no.

God created everything and saw that is was good in the beginning. The fall of angels and humans is by their own choices turning away from God becoming their own god.

In God's Hands everything is good, considering that God uses evil for good and evil was certainly in the Garden

The notions that the tempter or the knowledge of evil was not in the Garden is not supportable, nor does that mean either of these were good, unless we want to call the tempter and the knowledge of evil, good

Ain't going there. You?

 

[eddif]

No one, no not one, has ever chosen themselves to be sinless

It has never happened, period.

God Himself in Christ, the sole exception

Mercy is eternal for a reason, because no one else is God and no one else ever will be God

Where did for_his_glory say we choose to be sinless. Reckoned to be without sin maybe, but sinless?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

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And where did I say anything different then that within our conversations as I even gave the scripture for that.

IMO, I think you are so hard cored with whatever someone is teaching you that you can not see that which has already been written. Views and opinions are fine, but when they blatantly come against the written word of God then there is no room for growth.

Yes, I am hard core when it comes to those who claim Satan was holy, and I'd suggest the reasons why are clear enough by now.

You are certain welcome to continue proposing Satan as a one time Perfect Holy Angel. I won't be bullied into thinking it's true

 

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Where did for_his_glory say we choose to be sinless. Reckoned to be without sin maybe, but sinless?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

So, you're saying reckoned as sinless, but still having sin?

Sounds like a classic double standard

For the record, I have zero issues with sin being charged to the tempter, because sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

When we "perceive" that the tempter operates via temptations in our minds, it's far far easier to jump headlong into outright condemnation, knowing full well unto WHOM that is directed. Or as Paul showed, "no longer I" Romans 7:17-21

 

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I don't have to pick one. The next verse is clear. (John 6:71) "He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Quantrill

Only if we ignore the fact that Satan entered Judas

Otherwise I'll have to go with the obvious devil

 

[eddif]

So, you're saying reckoned as sinless, but still having sin?

Sounds like a classic double standard

For the record, I have zero issues with sin being charged to the tempter, because sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

When we "perceive" that the tempter operates via temptations in our minds, it's far far easier to jump headlong into outright condemnation, knowing full well unto WHOM that is directed. Or as Paul showed, "no longer I" Romans 7:17-21

How about classic bi-polar. Seems as though Paul describes two areas of his life. I am not Luke-warm about the issue. I resist the bad and encourage the good.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

No one, no not one, has ever chosen themselves to be sinless

It has never happened, period.

God Himself in Christ, the sole exception

Mercy is eternal for a reason, because no one else is God and no one else ever will be God

I'm talking about the choices we make in our lives, whether they be good or bad, they are still our choices and Satan has no influence in what we choose. The tree of knowledge has opened our eyes to good and evil and within the flesh there is no good thing.

 

[for_his_glory]

I certainly accept that Satan was an evil-wicked-lying-deceitful-destroying ANGEL- angel meaning messenger

No question about it at all

A perfectly evil entity from the beginning

From the beginning of his fall in the garden of Eden, not when he was created by God, because of pride that caused his fall as at that specific time iniquity was first found in him. Ezekiel 28:15

Why was it found in him, Isaiah gives us the answer.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah, I think maybe you should go back and re-read that post. Here is my quote from that post:

"-Satan being a perfectly evil wicked angel messenger from the beginning, created to be exactly that by our Creator."

There is only One Creator who created all things, including creating the power of evil and Satan to personify evil

Most Holy Satan claims stem from "those" who think Satan created himself into evil, which is where you picked that up that quote

Post #64 you said: And, yes, I will point out multiple creator theories when they are seen. I don't adhere to such things. But that claim is usually at the heart of these matters i.e. specifically, that Satan created himself.

If I misunderstood what you meant by saying that Satan created himself, I am sorry as I thought you meant that Satan created himself.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Host meaning all the created angels of the heavenly realm of God and the host meaning the creation of man on earth

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

In the beginning of God creating all the host (angels) of heaven Lucifer held a high ranking position in the angelic host of heaven. He had beauty and great wisdom as he was given a position of great power and influence as being the anointed cherub of God. He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. God ordained him as an anointed cherub setting him as the guardian over the garden of Eden. It was while he was in the garden that this beautiful perfect angel of God became prideful and wanted everything that was of God as iniquity was then found in him.

 

[for_his_glory]

The only real fact anyone has contributed to the Holy Satan theory, seeing that the term HOLY as applied to Satan doesn't exist, is an angelic (which term, angel, is also applied to evil angels) being that was created "perfect"

Unfortunately such readers always fail to consider that "perfect" is very much qualified as:

A. Not even in the ball park as Perfect as God

and

B. perfect in "all thy ways"

Short version, a perfect devil

It will remain a big leap to claim Satan as perfect or Holy, particularly when seeing iniquity was "in him"

It's a rather strange claim to begin with in any case, seeing that our first treat to Satan in the scriptures is as a tempter in the Garden. Those who claim Holy Satan have some other existence of Satan before the narratives start where Satan was supposedly Holy, but that is a leap of substantial proportions into the unwritten undisclosed arena, that doesn't really exist in scripture

The only real fact coming from you, and I say this sincerely, is that only you have called him Holy Satan. The name Satan was given to him by man after his fall in the garden of Eden along with many other names used to describe him that we read throughout the Bible.

In the garden is our first witness of what Satan became after his fall as being the deceiver of the world who weakens the nations.

 

[Quantrill]

Only if we ignore the fact that Satan entered Judas

Otherwise I'll have to go with the obvious devil

I didn't ignore that fact. What is your problem?

(John 6:70-71) is clear that it is Judas that is being addressed as a devil.

You have an opinion, but not based upon Scripture. Thus when Scripture is shown to be contrary to what you're saying, you simply go with your opinion.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

In God's Hands everything is good, considering that God uses evil for good and evil was certainly in the Garden

The notions that the tempter or the knowledge of evil was not in the Garden is not supportable, nor does that mean either of these were good, unless we want to call the tempter and the knowledge of evil, good

Ain't going there. You?

Then it appears to me you might not be understanding Ezekiel 28:12-15 as being a dual reference to Satan and his fall after God placed placed him in the garden of Eden as an anointed cherub, being the guardian over the garden of Eden.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I am hard core when it comes to those who claim Satan was holy, and I'd suggest the reasons why are clear enough by now.

You are certain welcome to continue proposing Satan as a one time Perfect Holy Angel. I won't be bullied into thinking it's true

Brother please do not think I am bullying you into anything as no one can force their beliefs on another. These are only discussions and hopefully we can learn from one another within sharing the scriptures in those things we might not have understood before.

 

[for_his_glory]

How about classic bi-polar. Seems as though Paul describes two areas of his life. I am not Luke-warm about the issue. I resist the bad and encourage the good.

eddif

We all have two areas in our lives as one is flesh (outside sin nature) and the other is Spirit (Holy Spirit within our inner man being spirit and soul). It is sort of like having bi-polar in a way as at one time you want to do good, but the flesh gets in the way as the flesh wants what the flesh wants. There will always be Spiritual warfare and sometimes the flesh will win a few battles, but never the war.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

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I'm talking about the choices we make in our lives, whether they be good or bad

Well, if we're honest with ourselves, it doesn't take long to come to the reality that we all make both good and bad choices, quite consistently

It's not a one sided equation because we are all factually bound with an evil-law resisting conscience. Whether it works it's ways to the outside is the only question, but it is an internal reality, regardless

 

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Judas that is being addressed as a devil.

IF Satan entered Judas, then Jesus should have pointed out that there were 2 devils, huh?

There is a very large theology problem when we see people as devils, rather than captives of them

I hope you recognize the difference, and the errors of seeing people as devils, particularly regarding Jewish people, who are all termed God's children in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matthew 23:9, etc.

God doesn't have devil children, nor are "devils" converted to believers

Lottsa errors in people as devils theology

 

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Then it appears to me you might not be understanding Ezekiel 28:12-15 as being a dual reference to Satan and his fall after God placed placed him in the garden of Eden as an anointed cherub, being the guardian over the garden of Eden.

God obviously put a lid over the children of God, a spirit of disobedience, which remains in place to this day. Heb. 10:22 terms it the evil conscience. Paul says all come into this world bound or covered by that agency, Eph. 2:2

Technically we were divided and separated from that agency in faith. But not to the extent of denial of the reality of it

God has also promised to destroy that covering, when their time to end arrives

 

[Quantrill]

IF Satan entered Judas, then Jesus should have pointed out that there were 2 devils, huh?

There is a very large theology problem when we see people as devils, rather than captives of them

I hope you recognize the difference, and the errors of seeing people as devils, particularly regarding Jewish people, who are all termed God's children in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matthew 23:9, etc.

God doesn't have devil children, nor are "devils" converted to believers

Lottsa errors in people as devils theology

It's no problem if you believe the Scripture.

Here is what is said. 1.) Judas was a man. (John 6:71) 2.) Judas was a devil. (John 6:70) 3.) satan entered Judas. (John 13:27)

If Jesus said Judas was a devil, which He did, there is no problem. Judas, the man/devil was later fully indwelt by 'the' devil, satan.

Judas was never a child of God. Where do you get that?

The error is yours in rejecting what Christ said.

Quantrill