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The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

H

Hobie

Member
Many have been told by ministers and pastors that the moment they die they are in heaven, but is it true, and is the inverse also true that the wicked are in hell the moment they die, is that what the scripture teaches, lets check what scripture shows.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed. So man does not have a immortal soul as we can see from scripture, now lets look further.

While speaking to His disciples about Lazarus, Jesus said:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, if he sleep he shall do well. Howbeit, Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:11-14

The disciples were confused and thought Christ meant natural sleep, but He meant the sleep of death.
On His arrival Jesus found that Lazarus had already been four days in the tomb. John 11:17

While conversing with Martha, He tried to comfort her by saying,
'Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith unto him, 'I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' John 11:23,24

Martha knew that life would be restored to Lazarus only in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus demonstrated through the resurrection of Lazarus that He was the One who could resurrect the dead according to His claim:

I am the resurrection and the life. John 11:25

The Scriptures in both Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life to the dead will be restored in the resurrection on the last day. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, Job 19:25-26; Job 14:10-15; Psalm 17:15; Daniel 12:13) There will be separate resurrections for the righteous and for the wicked. John 5:28-29 states:

Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5 NKJV

That same voice that raised Lazarus from the grave will be heard on that last day of this world's history, calling forth those who have slept in the graves of the earth. Christ will recreate the righteous dead, or "dead in Christ", and breathe into them the breath of eternal life, and they shall enter Heaven.

Revelation 20:6:
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

When Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb,
...he cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth'. John 11:43

That voice raised dead Lazarus to life. "He that was dead came forth", and Jesus said:
Loose him, and let him go. John 11:44

Nothing at all is stated about what transpired during those four days in which Lazarus was dead. Christ made no statement, neither did Martha or even Lazarus himself. The fact, of course, is that there was nothing to report about what happened after he died, no bright lights or gentle clouds or about the realm of the dead, simply because he had experienced the sleep of death which is a state of absolute silence and oblivion.

One of the most deceptive doctrines of the Evil one is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This doctrine more than any other opens the door to spurious views regarding the afterlife, and it has permeated the religious world with its false promises and claims. Moreover, it offers promises of multiple choices that can be made in terms of one’s salvation and multiple chances in terms of qualifying for salvation. Spiritism, reincarnation and necromancy (the worship and consulting of the dead) are only possible in the light of this doctrine. The Word of God is very clear on this issue. None of these doctrines and practices were to be tolerated by the people of God because they were all rooted in a false perception of death.

Most religions in the world today teach that death is the transition of one state of consciousness to another state of consciousness. They propose that physical man is subject to death, but that the "soul" continues to live, and is indeed immortal. According to this doctrine, the soul is a separate entity, and resides in the body of the living. To make matters even more confusing, most Christian denominations believe that this dichotomy is to be found only in humans, and that animals do not have souls.
The text of Genesis 2:7 clearly states that God breathed into the formed man the "breath of life" and man became a living soul. He did not receive a living soul; he became one. The New King James Bible states that "man became a living being". Of the many references to soul and spirit in the Bible, never once is either the soul or the Spirit declared to be immortal, imperishable or eternal. Indeed only God has immortality (1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16).

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a doctrine of false hope which negates the message of death. Moreover, if man continues to live, albeit in an altered state, then there is no need for a Saviour, or indeed the atoning death of Christ. Christ died to restore life to those who had forfeited it through sin.Job correlates the usage of breath and the spirit, saying:

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils. Job 27:3

Moses reported that the breath of life was in Adam’s nostrils, whereas Job refers to both terms and says that the spirit of the Lord is “in my nostrils.†Hence, the Hebrew terms of "neshamah" and "rûach" are used here in a similar context - namely life itself! According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field . . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 2:19; 7:15

Both man and beast ...have all one breath, so that a man hath no preeminence above the beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19

Since man and beast have one breath, they also die the same way.

For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts; ... as the one dieth, so dieth the other. Ecclesiastes 3:19.

Both man and animals were created from dust. So, when they die they then return again to dust; just the reverse of creation.

...for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

The second thing which happens when a man dies, is that the spirit, or breath of life, returns to God;

...and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

Man was never meant to die, but death came into the world as a consequence of sin.

For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

As death is non-life, it merely means that God takes the life ("rûach" spirit, breath) that He granted on condition of obedience back and man ceases to live. It is the life that was given that returns to God, and not a transformed version of man in the form a spirit being. When God said that man would "surely die" (Genesis 2:17) if he transgressed God's requirements, He meant that man would cease to live, and would return to dust.

Far from being a conscious state, death is thus the ultimate state of non-being or unconsciousness, and is described as such in the Scriptures.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything. Ecclesiastes 9:5

The dead are oblivious to what is happening on earth they know nothing.

Also their love, and their hatred and their envy is now perished. Ecclesiastes 9:6

For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give you thanks? Psalm 6:5

So their feelings perish also.
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115: 17

This state of unconsciousness is equated with sleep. Job says,

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more; they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

Man lies in the sleep of death until the resurrection at the end of time. Then, and only then, will he awake and be raised out of sleep.
 
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Hobie

Matthew 22

19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

And what of the rich man and Lazarus?

JamesG
 
---------PARABLES OR NON/PARABLES?-- LUKE 16--------(in part & with my emphasis)

First we need to ask ourselves, do we 'believe' Christ's Word? Really??
Case in point: 'IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS'. (all ten of them!!)

John states that.. 'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.' So do we 'Believe Him', REALLY?
We call the Bible the Word of God and rightly so, mostly because of John 1:14! But do we believe the Word of God?

Perhaps some might best question their 'knowledge' by the Word of God by itself? Instead of leaning upon the 'arm of flesh' that have mans reams & reams of educated PhD'ism stuff, that none seem to agree on except perhaps the two great errors that the Word of God cautions against? That of the 'd'evils first lie.. 'Ye shall not surely die' and also a day set aside by man, (see Mark 7:7) and that is for 'professed' sacred use! Sunday keeping which is attempted to replace the 'Day that God set aside for Holy use'. (see Gen. 2:1-3)

OK: Lets just test our individual 'belief'? Can one take a 'parable' and use it as they want to? Can or does Abraham's bosom hold all of the beggars +?? And can Christ be BELIEVED in an ACTUAL TRUTH in verse 31?? 'And HE said unto him, If they [HEAR NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, *NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD].' (which Christ did!) when most already [preach & teach] that God did indeed lie, and satan told the Truth?? And NOW COMES THIS 2 Cor. 4:2 TWISTING!

-Parables- (hold on a mite now, ok? We will get to the Luke 16 'parable' of the 'rich man & Lazarus momentarily!)

Christ's Words:
'All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He [not unto them.]
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; ... Then Jesus sent the [multitude away], and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, [Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.]'

OK. We can see so far that only one group one had an explanation from Christ, while the other multitude did not. Do we believe this so far?? NO, most STILL BELIEVE the devil it seems! like Cain in Gen. 4:7. And THEIR DESIRE is for whom??? Well Rev. 18:4 one.. read on!

Now: In Mark 4:10-11 we see.. 'And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him asked the parable. And He said unto them, [unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: (a short pause please? with all of these denominations of today teaching that God lied, can this statement of Christ's Word be documented?) but unto [them] that are [without] all these things are done in parables.' Now then, are these Rev. 17:1-5 also still believers, read the stuff that you are saying on this thread!!?? Using an parable for the ACTUAL Happening! One best read Prov. 26:7 'SO IS A PARABLE IN THE MOUTH OF FOOLS.'

But Again: Mark 4:33-34. 'And with many [such] parables spake He the Word unto them, (who is them, Pharisees & Multitude??) as they were able to hear it.(pay apt attention please!) But [[without]] a parable [[spake He not unto them]]: (do you believe Him??) and when they [were alone, He EXPOUNDED ALL THINGS TO HIS DISCIPLES].' Again, do you believe the Word of God?? (who here is the BLIND fools of Prov.?)

Again: Luke 8:10 says.. 'And He said, [Unto you] it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: (break time again! THINK!!) but to others in parables; (notice?!) that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.' This parable might be a good study for some here, huh? **See verses 11-15 for who it was that were hearing this PARABLE!.

Why did the Lord use Parables?? These Parables my friends will bring real questions to a sincere seeker!
'And His disciples came, and said unto Him, Why [speaketh thou in parables?] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto [you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them, it is not given.] ... For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; least at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM.' Matt. 13:10-15 in part.

Surely we of Heb. 6 can readily see what Christ has told [us] so far, right? We started out with Matt. 13:34 with Christ defining whom Parables were for, & that 'without' a parable He spake not unto them. THESE MULTITUDE included all unbelievers! (And the disciples were not these!)

In Luke 16 the only question that needs to be addressed, is to whom was Christ addressing? The Disciples or the Multitude? And 'your' answer will find you in one class or the other!

Remember that it is impossible for God to lie! Do you 'believe Him' is the question for us to answer, to find out which group that we are in, a disciple, or just one of the 'Blind Multitude'!!?? We often hear of Luke 16's rich man and Lazarus being an 'actual' stated Truth instead of a Parable, and that goes right back to the devil's first lie told to Eve!

Verse 14 is almost always left out of today's sermon? Notice what it says in closing! In the setting for this chapter 16, we find verse 14 with the setting for this parable..

'And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, [heard all these things: ] and [they derided Him].' And this was the setting for this Luke 16 Parable! Christ was addressing the blind multitude! And again in the next Words, we see who Christ was addressing, His disciples! (chapter 17:1. And remember that the chapters numbers and the verse numbers etc., were added by man)

And they DERIDED HIM??? Take a peek at the last 100+ years of the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES STILL TEACHING THAT GOD DID INDEED LIE, and satan told the truth!! (Gen. 3:3-4)

---Elijah
 
Haven't read everyone's posts yet, but my conception of the "after life" has always been: when the righteous die they go to paradise (remember Christ's words on the cross to one of the thieves). However, when they are resurrected they shall receive a new body and dwell with God for eternity in a new creation (new heaven and earth). The wicked shall be resurrected and destroyed by fire. Some, like the false prophet and Satan, will be tormented by this fire forever. Just my :twocents
 
How many times are the few who reject everlasting life going to rephrase the same argument? This has been played, and played and played. To deny the fact that those whose names are written in the Book of Life will live forever in the presence of the Lord, is to deny the Purpose of the death and resurrection of Christ.

The gospel of John provides the Truth that robs death of its permanent curse. Jesus promises, “I am the resurrection and the life. "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die" (John 11:25,26).
Lying in his tomb Jesus was dead. Miraculously He overcame death by conquering its curse and rising to life. Everyone who relies on Jesus and His promise will do the same and will live even though he or she dies. And to be technical about it, that person will never die but continue to exist as an individual being and soul created by God. Until Judgment Day, the last day of the world’s existence, when Jesus will return and call all the dead bodies forth from their graves or their ashes or their other decomposition and raise them up to join their souls – believers joining their souls in heaven, unbelievers joining their souls in hell. "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise Him up at the last day†(John 6:40), Jesus promises. So don’t worry and don’t be afraid about what will happen to you at death. Believe in Jesus and Live Forever. At your death your soul will continue living, remaining connected to God in heaven. Your body will decompose, only to be raised by the call of Jesus on Judgment Day. Believe Jesus who explains about eternal life in heaven this way, "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in Me. In My Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with Me that you also may be where I am" (John14:1-3).

I'm not sure I'll participate in another ongoing topic that goes down this same road yet again, but I wanted to offer a biblical perspective that rejects the false notion that we either live in, or apart from, the presence of our Lord.
 
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Elijah674

Why do you talk to us as if we are all a bunch of idiots. Do you really think that you will be taken seriously with such an attitude? Whether or not anything you said is true, I discounted it because of your attitude. Your attitude gives me the impression that you only have a private opinion and that you have an agenda. We're all just people here. No one is better than any other. We all just what to grow in the knowledge of our God and of our Lord Jesus Christ. When you understand that you will be heard.

JamesG
 
Per God's Word, there is such a thing as an immortal soul that can never perish, putting on "immortality" through Christ, and there is such a state as a "mortal" soul that can still be subject to the "second death" ("lake of fire").

Apostle Paul covered that matter in 1 Corinthians 15, but you've got to go into the Greek in some places to really see it.

When all flesh men die the first death (flesh death), their soul and spirit still exists afterwards, for NO soul is destroyed until AFTER Christ's future Milennium reign on earth with His elect. So arguing over the idea of immortality is useless.

After flesh death, ONLY Christ can cause one's soul and spirit to perish, ONLY AFTER the final Judgment per the end of Rev.20. Even the devil and his angels haven't been destroyed yet, though they have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

When Christ comes, we ALL are going to be changed to resurrection type bodies. That includes the wicked also. Just because they also will have resurrection bodies does NOT mean they have Eternal Life through Christ though. The state of their souls will STILL be in a liable to perish condition, still subject to the second death at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.

There are people walking around today that are literally 'dead' inside spiritually, not having the regeneration of The Spirit through Christ Jesus. Their souls are 'dead' even now, while walking in their flesh bodies. WE are NOT made up of just material matter from the earth. We ALSO are made up of spirit and have a soul inside our flesh body.

Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
(KJV)

Our spirit and soul CONTINUES to live after death of our flesh body. Same for the wicked also, though their soul will STILL be in a liable to perish state after flesh death.
 
veteran said:
Per God's Word, there is such a thing as an immortal soul that can never perish, putting on "immortality" through Christ, and there is such a state as a "mortal" soul that can still be subject to the "second death" ("lake of fire").

Apostle Paul covered that matter in 1 Corinthians 15, but you've got to go into the Greek in some places to really see it.

When all flesh men die the first death (flesh death), their soul and spirit still exists afterwards, for NO soul is destroyed until AFTER Christ's future Milennium reign on earth with His elect. So arguing over the idea of immortality is useless.

After flesh death, ONLY Christ can cause one's soul and spirit to perish, ONLY AFTER the final Judgment per the end of Rev.20. Even the devil and his angels haven't been destroyed yet, though they have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

When Christ comes, we ALL are going to be changed to resurrection type bodies. That includes the wicked also. Just because they also will have resurrection bodies does NOT mean they have Eternal Life through Christ though. The state of their souls will STILL be in a liable to perish condition, still subject to the second death at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.

There are people walking around today that are literally 'dead' inside spiritually, not having the regeneration of The Spirit through Christ Jesus. Their souls are 'dead' even now, while walking in their flesh bodies. WE are NOT made up of just material matter from the earth. We ALSO are made up of spirit and have a soul inside our flesh body.

Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
(KJV)

Our spirit and soul CONTINUES to live after death of our flesh body. Same for the wicked also, though their soul will STILL be in a liable to perish state after flesh death.
Click to expand...

Hi Veteran

The soul we have now can and will die. What you are talking about is the future, not the present.

When we die, our soul dies - Psalm 49:15 and Psalm 56:13

And why do we die ? The answer is because of the sin of Adam. Man became a living soul, but with a condition. The soul would continue to live , if man ate from the tree of life. But man did not eat from the tree of life. He sinned against the will of God, and the soul of mankind dies when the body dies.
 
JamesG said:
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Elijah674

Why do you talk to us as if we are all a bunch of idiots. Do you really think that you will be taken seriously with such an attitude? Whether or not anything you said is true, I discounted it because of your attitude. Your attitude gives me the impression that you only have a private opinion and that you have an agenda. We're all just people here. No one is better than any other. We all just what to grow in the knowledge of our God and of our Lord Jesus Christ. When you understand that you will be heard.

JamesG
Click to expand...

Well James, let me see if this helps you to understand that I do not read any posters mind, or care too! This is a very old post dug up from DEAD files perhaps? But regardless it surely fits along with your [personal remarks] to me? What worse FALSE DOCTRINE could there be, than one thinking that they could READ anothers Motives of Service?? :crying Not just teaching for truth Gen. 3:3-4.

What Is True Agape Love, Feeling, Emotion, or Principal?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--Elijah here:
Matthew 4:4 is the Lord's Word! We are to live by 'every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God'. OK: So is James 2:20 Christ 'Word'!
That is for me to believe and live as I see it. So what does that tell me in life?
Case in point:

Lets say that you love this kid of 12! (perhaps most professed Christians?) With Real Genuine Love. And you have a decision to make. The two of you are rabbit hunting in the mountains & the kid takes off chasing a rabbit! (a ***** gospel) Well, it just so happens that you are mature in age, and you have hunted on 'this mountain top' for years, and you yell at the kid (maybe in caps, huh? ) that there is serious danger ahead. But the boy 'is excited' & won't hear you, (*ALL kinds of 'winds' of doctrine, + emotion & stuff!) and is by now nearly at the edge of the 300ft. drop-off! (Revelation's last day!) OK:

And I am a perfect shot with my Marlin 22 rifle. (off the 'milk' of Heb. 5 & on the 'meat' of Heb. 6) And the boy is going to die if I do nothing! (in the spiritual sense it would mean his last chance or the closed door, the second Eternal death of Obadiah 1:16's DECISION!) Yet, what can I do? What are you thinking!!???

What would everyone say about me doing that? You know, don't rock the boat, or the wheat & the 'open sinners' all grow together! or you have a hate message! And if you loved him, you surely would not tell him of his nearness to eternal death! Not only that, but one might say, do not judge me! er' him!! Maybe even a mod might step in saying that your are breaking the rules?? (Ezekiel 18:24) Or.. God will intervene & save him, you just got to leave it in His hands!! Or, that is not your job to worry about this, it is between him & God! (and & on the forums go)

OK: so I let the kid that I love just finish it off, huh?
Well folks, that is not my kind of LOVE! (see Revelation 3:16-17 for this 'SICK' SPEWED OUT BY CHRIST stuff!)

I would shoot the little rascal in the foot & then most likely tan his rear end for even running off to read 'blanks' old theology that originated in heavens rebellion! And 'blank'?? he knows better himself, it is 'you' that concerns me now! You are as Eve, presumptuously going on the devil's forbidden ground to learn of his slimy snaky kind of [covenant]. God/Forbid! (check out David in Psalms 19:13)

Yea, I know, most of todays Professed Christian's do not even have any 'spiritual' bullets in [their mind] for the war! (Hebrews 10:15-16 & Hebrews 8:10) Instead of 'living by every Word of God' they just read the N.T. & do not even 'live by that'! See Ezekiel 37:1-4 for now & then verse 7-10 latter.

And yes, heaven will have many Sunday keepers there who have died believing [and living] what they Believed was Truth.

--Elijah
 
I have not really thought much of this topic.

To me it is the least important topic of the Bible, not what I mean, however I do not have the right words to describe what I mean.

Way I see it, I am in the here and now, and I need to live a life close to the Lord. I will focus on such things as how to walk the narrow path, how to bring others to the narrow path, and praising the LORD. I have faith in God and He knows that best way for all things to happen. In faith I know that the Lord will bring me through in the end to be with Him, so I do not care how I get there.
 
JamesG said:
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Hobie

Matthew 22

19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

And what of the rich man and Lazarus?

JamesG
Click to expand...


Hi James.

Could you please clarify how Mathew 22 fits into the immortality of the soul doctrine? Thanks in advance.
 
The Subject is of vital IMPORTANCE! It ties right in with satans first lie of Gen. 3:3-4 which most all teach for Truth even today! Well past the Protestant Reformation of even Gen. 6:3's 120 years of the Holy Spirit's STRIVING! And then Hell even finds satan's teaching of calling the Godhead LIARS.. that they are not the only one who have IMMORTALITY! (1 Tim. 1:16-17 + 1 Tim. 6:16) How MUCH more Apostate could the Rev. 17:1-5 ones get in bottom/line?? :crying

There are excellent postings on this thread (surely only a few Truths) with excellent Bible verification being DOCUMENTED! (if Inspiration is believed??) 2 Thess. 2:9-12 finds [[STRONG DELUSION's]] by both satan & his followers. And verse 11 says that [[THEY BELIEVE A LIE]]. What hope is there for these ones??? Rev. 16:13-14 does say 'false prophet'.

--Elijah
 
.
Elijah674

We’re all growing here. I for one disregard what anyone claims to be truth when they treat others with disrespect. In my experience the truth of such people is merely their own truth. Frustration does often enter the picture with those who are dogmatic and disrespectful. They can’t understand why no one is listening to them. Your attitude may be a yelling to others in danger to you. But to me, it is just disrespect. And you lose me at that point. Does that help your mission, your agenda? People will tend to just take you with a grain of salt? I suggest that you go before the Lord concerning this matter, if indeed you are truly in Christ. When you act like a heathen, the evidence becomes unclear on that point. And don’t even try to use Jesus overturning the table of the moneychangers bit. One instance of Jesus making a point does not apply. And if treating others with disrespect is a part of your motive of service, may I suggest that perhaps your service is to you alone.

This subject has no practical value in my book. Which ever way one believes, when one dies, to that person, whether it is instantaneous or after a time of soul-sleep, the end is the same to his consciousness. And whether or not we are in Christ or our Salvation in Christ is certainly not affected by our belief in this subject. So if I am going to discuss any subject such as this, it certainly won’t be with anyone who treats me with disrespect. My dad is a Jehovah’s Witness. He believes in soul-sleep. Neither of us treat each other with disrespect when we discuss the matter. Maybe he just raised me right. Listen and learn.


Manofgod

The two examples that I gave point to the fact that the dead are not dead in the way that we think of dead when we only take the natural into account. It may be that a lot of what is considered to be a doctrinal position that the dead are in heaven may in fact just be extra-Biblical. But when Jesus said to one of the thieves, “today you will be with me in Paradise†I tend to believe that Jesus didn’t just make that up and that there is more to being dead than just being dead according to our natural thinking. And I certainly can’t agree with anyone who thinks that the description of the rich man and Lazarus is just something that Jesus made up on the spur of the moment to prove a point. We might do such a thing, but not Jesus. What is said by the Biblical writers is often interpreted into having more meaning or a different meaning than what is actually being said. We have to take that into consideration on a matter such as this.

JamesG
 
OP , this is just a classic case of not understanding the intent of a words use. life = Goldy and death = ungodly. Eternal life is to be with God. Death is to go to hell but not a processes to stop existing consciously.
 
God wins some & God loses some. Rom. 8:14, and surely from BOTH groups of Jude 1:22-23, huh? Anyway, here is a post from another site on the same subject of who it is that has Imortality. --Elijah

AtoZ, on 31 May 2010 - 01:59 AM, said:
That's good Elijah674

Elijah's posted:
In whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

When God (United Godhead) stated that He has Immortality (not his creation 1 Tim. 1:17 + 1 Tim. 6:16) and in Gen. 3:22 + Gen. 11:7 includes US in the plural who man was made in only the Image of, yet subject to death as God stated in Gen. 2:16-17. It is then that one WILL BELIEVE GOD & not teach that satan told the truth, [IF] they will? It is a free/choice! See Gen. 4:6-7.

Inspiration (invisible God in Their UNITY) has it stated this way: 'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, [and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE]; [and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL].' Gen. 2:7
OK: Was man Immortal? God says that only They have Immortality. And that means the IMMORTALITY has ETERNALLY BEEN, not created! Again, God Jehovah, Holy [Spirit or Holy Ghost] & the Eternal God Christ. (just not the Son as of yet except in the Eternal Plan)

Now: Where was this created man in the Godheads Eternity? Could he see hear or was he living as immortal? And when one dies we are told that our thoughts perish +! (Eccl. 9:4-6) Hardly, huh! Immortality goes into all ETERNAL Directions! SO: Back to can a 'SOUL DIE'. God DOCUMENTED in the Gen. 2:7th verse that [MAN BECAME] A LIVING SOUL!! That should be enough for Their creation to Believe Them & UNDERSTAND that they have been teaching lies for well past the 120 years of their satan's lies of Gen. 3:4.

Yet, there is much more on down the line of Inspiration. Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20 [DOCUMENTS] that the [SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE]!! (Twice!) And even the brain dead creation of the Godhead are a [LIVING SOUL]. We read in Rev. 16:3 'that every [living soul] died in the sea.' 'All have ONE BREATH; so man [HATH NO PREEMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST]. .. ALL GO INTO ONE PLACE..]' Eccl. 3:19

Sure, TWO RESURRECTIONS! Sure Two JUDGEMENTS! Eccl. 12:13-14 & then Conditional Immortality of still eating of the Tree of Life as seen in Rev. 22:1-2 for the SAVED from there on of Nahum 1:9's FACT! + this fact also of the others from Eternity on in Obadiah 1:16

--Elijah
 
Mysteryman said:
Hi Veteran

The soul we have now can and will die. What you are talking about is the future, not the present.

When we die, our soul dies - Psalm 49:15 and Psalm 56:13

And why do we die ? The answer is because of the sin of Adam. Man became a living soul, but with a condition. The soul would continue to live , if man ate from the tree of life. But man did not eat from the tree of life. He sinned against the will of God, and the soul of mankind dies when the body dies.
Click to expand...


Ps 49:15
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for He shall receive me. Selah.
(KJV)

Ps 56:13
13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
(KJV)

If you actually read what those verses are saying, it's about God PRESERVING their soul. Our soul does not die, only our flesh body dies in this present world. In the world to come, after Christ's future thousand years reign, then the souls of many will perish.


Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you Whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.
(KJV)
 
Gen. 3
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

We see the Rev. 17:1-5 ones DOCUMENTED by Inspiration as the Abomination of the Earth. And here above we READ God saying one thing & satan (+ these ones) teachintg for well past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits STRIVING of Gen. 6:3 that satan told the truth, but not the Godhead! And yes, they try to seperate man into two parts, a body & then to now have a Immortal Soul!

Yet, what has changed from their ENDING OF ABOMINATIONAL TEACHINGS??? Eze. 18:4 + Eze. 18:20 tell of the soul's (person) DEATH[/b]. Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20's Inspiration that is! And many of these ones of Matt. 7 surely had been True followers of Christ at their beginning. (Matt. 7:21-23 miracle workers in Christ's name!)

And God leaves NO doubt of their Eternal Fate in Obad. 1:16.. These will all be [AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN!] Yet the choice was their's to make. :crying One needs to ask [theirself] what that means just before retiring to sleep tonight! Never again to awaken, NEVER, NEVER AGAIN TO AWAKEN from Hell's FINAL 'SECOND' DEATH!! Just cease to exist, blotted out of existance into oblivion! [/b]And the reason is, is that these person's are set in satan's spiritual concrete and there is just NO WAY TO BE REACHED!! Still Christian, or at least still claiming to be?? Read about that in Rev. 3:16-17. Their LOVE IS LUKEWARM, and Christ DOCUMENTS that they [WILL BE SPEWED OUT]! Sickening.

But NO, these ones all/most all, teach that satan has told the truth! :screwloose

--Elijah
 
Hobie said:
Many have been told by ministers and pastors that the moment they die they are in heaven, but is it true, and is the inverse also true that the wicked are in hell the moment they die, is that what the scripture teaches, lets check what scripture shows.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" End of quote.

MY COMMENTS: I certainly agree with your opening statement, Hobie. However, I do believe if the literal meanings of certain words are examined (through a concordance or lexicon), certain truths would also be seen.''
For Instance: In Matt. 16:25 (quoted above), the word for "life" in the Greek is "psuche..soul". You seem to know this, as your statement below states.

Quote:
"How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them."

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord. End of quote.

MY COMMENTS: My understanding is, that Christ's body would not have seen corruption...period! For he was without sin. He was dead and in the tomb three days and nights, until roused from the dead.

I'm convinced that SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body. Man, a living being, experiences life through his senses, his soul.

As you have said, man is a livng soul, and when he dies he is a dead soul.
His body returns to the dust from which it came, and his soul (experience, memory, thoughts, feelings, etc) are said to go to the "unseen" (sheol--Heb; hades--Gk.), or simply disappear; and his spirit (life force related to breath) returns to God who gave it.

So, to be more correct, Acts 2:27 should read, "Thou will not leave my soul in the unseen (hades).

More later.
Click to expand...
 
veteran said:
Mysteryman said:
Hi Veteran

The soul we have now can and will die. What you are talking about is the future, not the present.

When we die, our soul dies - Psalm 49:15 and Psalm 56:13

And why do we die ? The answer is because of the sin of Adam. Man became a living soul, but with a condition. The soul would continue to live , if man ate from the tree of life. But man did not eat from the tree of life. He sinned against the will of God, and the soul of mankind dies when the body dies.
Click to expand...


Ps 49:15
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for He shall receive me. Selah.
(KJV)

Ps 56:13
13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
(KJV)

If you actually read what those verses are saying, it's about God PRESERVING their soul. Our soul does not die, only our flesh body dies in this present world. In the world to come, after Christ's future thousand years reign, then the souls of many will perish.


Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you Whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.
(KJV)
Click to expand...

Hi Veteran:

The Word of God says "redeeming" and you call it preserving.

You will not receive the Word of God with meekness, if you impose your understanding upon scripture. God will redeem our soul from the grave. But he will not preserve it from death. The scriptures are clear, that when the body dies the soul dies as well. Psalm 56:13 is talking about delivering the soul from death. In order to deliver the soul from death, the soul must first die !
 
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