The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

[veteran]

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

You're heeding a doctrine of men that is not written in God's Word. If you believe the soul dies along with the flesh at the first death, then that is to infer the "second death" of the lake of fire event also happens at flesh death, for everyone! That's a doctrine of devils, and is not written in God's Word. It's those who can't get away from their carnal mind that deny Eccl.12:5-7 and 1 Cor.15 about the difference between a flesh body and the spiritual body image of the heavenly. When you die and your flesh is buried, you're gonna' find yourself either in hell or on the other side of the great gulf with the rest of the saints. It's your choice.

Hi Veteran

What gets you into trouble is your infering. You assume one thing, then another, then reply to the poster as if they believe a certain way, and then you declare their beliefs doctrines of devils.

First, there is no such word as "hell". Next, the Word is very specific when it comes to the soul and what happens to the soul upon the death of the flesh. The soul sinneth and it dies. It can not get any simplier than this.

Next, some things are my choice , while others are not. None of us deserves eternal life. Yet, not by my choice, but because of the will of God, he has given us this free gift of eternal life.

No one is saved from dying ! Neither is your soul saved from dying ! But your soul is saved from eternal damnation. When your time of your resurrection occurs, your soul will be raised from the dead. And not until !

We as Christians are his sheep, and we heed the calling of our Lord because of this. This again is not my choice, but his choice. I am thankful, and grateful. However, this in no way makes me the one responsible. I accept, acknowledge, and I am very humbled.

Accepting the fact, that when we die, our soul also dies, is a no brainer. Our faith is based upon the fact, that we will be raised from the dead. Our dead soul will be raised on that day. You soul does not go into a pickle jar. It dies , when you die !!

Our soul does not die at flesh death. It can only die at the "second death", which is the casting into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. That's what our Lord Jesus was talking about with the Matt.10:28 and Luke 12 examples. The Ezekiel scripture you refer to shows nothing about the soul dying at flesh death; it's applying to spiritual death, the "second death". No soul has perished yet, and as of yet only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Vet:

The soul that sinneth dies - Period ! Every man sins and falls short of the glory of God - Period ! When you die in this earth , your body goes back to dust from where it came. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. But your soul goes to the grave with your dead body ! God does not put your soul in a pickle jar ! :biglaugh

He does not preserve it from this death ! The Word of God is clear, the soul dies ! Psalm 44:25 and Psalm 89:48 and Psalm 33:19 & 20.

However, God can preserve your soul from the second death - Psalm 121:7 < But this verse is talking about putting your trust in God to help you keep you from evil. "Preserving your soul from evil"

In Adam all die, including your soul, which needs to be redeemed from death = the grave. The sin of Adam , for we are appointed once to die. Both body and soul. The spirit of man goes back to the giver, which is God. But the soul goes to the grave, which will be redeemed at your resurrrection.

You're heeding a doctrine of men that is not written in God's Word. If you believe the soul dies along with the flesh at the first death, then that is to infer the "second death" of the lake of fire event also happens at flesh death, for everyone! That's a doctrine of devils, and is not written in God's Word. It's those who can't get away from their carnal mind that deny Eccl.12:5-7 and 1 Cor.15 about the difference between a flesh body and the spiritual body image of the heavenly. When you die and your flesh is buried, you're gonna' find yourself either in hell or on the other side of the great gulf with the rest of the saints. It's your choice.

Hi Veteran

What gets you into trouble is your infering. You assume one thing, then another, then reply to the poster as if they believe a certain way, and then you declare their beliefs doctrines of devils.

First, there is no such word as "hell". Next, the Word is very specific when it comes to the soul and what happens to the soul upon the death of the flesh. The soul sinneth and it dies. It can not get any simplier than this.

Next, some things are my choice , while others are not. None of us deserves eternal life. Yet, not by my choice, but because of the will of God, he has given us this free gift of eternal life.

No one is saved from dying ! Neither is your soul saved from dying ! But your soul is saved from eternal damnation. When your time of your resurrection occurs, your soul will be raised from the dead. And not until !

We as Christians are his sheep, and we heed the calling of our Lord because of this. This again is not my choice, but his choice. I am thankful, and grateful. However, this in no way makes me the one responsible. I accept, acknowledge, and I am very humbled.

Accepting the fact, that when we die, our soul also dies, is a no brainer. Our faith is based upon the fact, that we will be raised from the dead. Our dead soul will be raised on that day. You soul does not go into a pickle jar. It dies , when you die !!

Our soul does not die at flesh death. It can only die at the "second death", which is the casting into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. That's what our Lord Jesus was talking about with the Matt.10:28 and Luke 12 examples. The Ezekiel scripture you refer to shows nothing about the soul dying at flesh death; it's applying to spiritual death, the "second death". No soul has perished yet, and as of yet only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire.[/quote
--------------
Hi veteran


Our souls do not die ? Who told you that ? I would really like to know, who fed you this information that the soul does not die at flesh death.

Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave"

Psalm 49:17 - "For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away : his glory shall not descend after him"

Psalm 44:25 - "For our soul is bowed down to the dust : our belly cleaveth unto the death"

 

[Mysteryman]

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

 

[jasoncran]

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

the world for soul there should be looked upon as the flesh,the body.

 

[Mysteryman]

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

the world for soul there should be looked upon as the flesh,the body.

Hi Jason :

No, it is talking about when your body breaths its last breath, your body and soul die. Both !

Gen. 2:7 - "The Lord God---- breathed into his nostriles the breath of life, and man became a living soul" < When man breaths his last breath, man becomes a dead soul. < Psalms 104:29 - Psalms 146:4 - also read Ezekiel 37:1 - 14 ( this is a metaphor, which is based upon a reality)

Once a dead body is raised from the dead, the soul is reactivated by breath life once again. This happened to Lazarus as we all know.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran : "Our soul does not die at flesh death. It can only die at the "second death",

-----------------------------

Hi Veteran:

You actually have this backwards ! Our soul dies when our flesh body no longer has breath life in it.

At the second death, in Matt. 10:28 it tells us not to fear them which can kill the body, but not the soul. And the the verse continues on to say - But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the grave (second death).

Our soul is dependent upon the sins we commit during our life time. When someone is willing to kill your body, the soul dies along with the death of the body. But the person who kills that person, does not kill the soul. God does not kill the soul either, but because of sin the soul dies. However, this verse is talking about how God can "destroy" both the soul and the body in the second death, as God is the one who is responsible for who ends up in the second death. Notice the word "destroy" here in this verse. There is no mention of God killing your soul. He will destroy the soul and the body, which is in reference to what the second death is all about. An absence from the presence of the Lord God, which means eternal damnation. The destruction of the soul and the body occurs in the second death, because it is eternal damnation of both the body and the soul.

Everything with God is eternal. 1. Eternal life or 2. Eternal damnation (second death)

 

[veteran]

Quote Veteran : "Our soul does not die at flesh death. It can only die at the "second death",

-----------------------------

Hi Veteran:

You actually have this backwards ! Our soul dies when our flesh body no longer has breath life in it.

At the second death, in Matt. 10:28 it tells us not to fear them which can kill the body, but not the soul. And the the verse continues on to say - But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the grave (second death).

Might want to look into the word "hell" used in Luke 12 and Matt.10. Both are from the Hebrew for Hinnom, Ge-Hinnom, the valley of Hinnom of the Old Testament.

Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you Whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.
(KJV)

The valley of Hinnom was south of Jerusalem where Baal worshippers burned their children in fire to the false god Molech. It was also used as a burning garbage dump, fires continualy smoldering there, its smoke rising day and night. Our Lord Jesus used it as a graphic metaphor for the "lake of fire" event at the end of His future "thousand years" reign. IT IS NOT ABOUT A GRAVE IN THE GROUND.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ABODE OF HELL EITHER. Here's why...

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)

The heavenly abode of the wicked, called "hell" (Greek haides there), is CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. That shows the abode of hell and the lake of fire are two separate things.

So I don't have it backwards, you do.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran :

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)

The heavenly abode of the wicked, called "hell" (Greek haides there), is CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. That shows the abode of hell and the lake of fire are two separate things.
------------------------------------

Hi Veteran :

The words "death" and "hell" (grave) in this verse, pertain to this life here upon earth - agreed ?

Both are cast into the Lake of fire , which is the second death. So there are two deaths 1. Literal < this earth and 2. figurative < pertaining to eternal damnation. In the first death, there is no remembrance. In the second death, there is an awareness.

In the first death, the soul goes to the grave when your body dies. This occured when Jesus died. A promise of God was that he (God) would not leave his (Jesus) soul in the grave - Acts 2:31

Once the soul is raised from the dead, it becomes aware. When the soul is cast into the second death, the soul remains aware. This is because the second death is a place of awareness and eternal damnation.

Luke 12:20 - "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee"

The soul that sins, and the soul is held accountable. The price for sin, is death, and the grave, which is where the soul ends up in this life here upon this earth. When we die, the soul dies as well.

We either receive eternal life or eternal death. It is the soul that is being spoken of here.

It is the soul that needs to be redeemed from the grave. The body dies and returns to dust from whence it was taken. It was God who made man a living soul. So when man disobeyed God, God tolk the man that he would surely die. God was not just talking about the body. God was talking specifically about the soul which had sinned. Psalms 49:8 -- Psalm 71:23

 

[veteran]

Our soul is dependent upon the sins we commit during our life time. When someone is willing to kill your body, the soul dies along with the death of the body. But the person who kills that person, does not kill the soul. God does not kill the soul either, but because of sin the soul dies.

Let's see, the person who kills one's body doesn't kill the soul, and God doesn't kill the soul either when that happens. That's what you said there. But because of sin, the soul dies of itself, and not by God's hand? No way I could ever agree to that. That's not what the Scripture is saying, for it says to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna (Hebrew metaphor for the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20, the "second death"). Our Lord Jesus is talking about the "second death", and that can only happen AFTER His FUTURE "thousand years" reign per Rev.20. But what you're confusion is causing you to do, is to MOVE that time for the "second death" way forward, at flesh death, starting with the first man to die in Genesis. That's not an idea within God's Word at all.

After one is killed by man, the destruction of what's left, i.e., the body with soul our Lord Jesus was speaking of, that is about the "spiritual body" along with a spiritually dead soul, like those of the "resurrection of damnation" He mentioned in John 5:29. That destruction happens at the "second death", not at flesh death (first death). You do realize with a "second death" mentioned by our Lord, a first death of our flesh body is inferred? Did He really need to go into detail about that first death of the flesh body for us? I don't think so.

However, this verse is talking about how God can "destroy" both the soul and the body in the second death, as God is the one who is responsible for who ends up in the second death. Notice the word "destroy" here in this verse. There is no mention of God killing your soul. He will destroy the soul and the body, which is in reference to what the second death is all about. An absence from the presence of the Lord God, which means eternal damnation. The destruction of the soul and the body occurs in the second death, because it is eternal damnation of both the body and the soul.

You simply contradict yourself again in your statement. Either God destroys the soul, or He doesn't. The Luke 12 and Matt.10 examples declare He is The One Who destroys it, and to FEAR HIM BECAUSE HE IS ABLE TO. Don't confuse the idea that God "can" destroy it, for that's only a pointer showing the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" is still a future event, after Christ's Milennium reign. And you say there's no mention there of God killing the soul??

You're simply confusing a tradition of men about those who die in the flesh being in limbo in a casket in the ground. You can choose to interpret Scripture that way when reading verses like you quoted in the Psalms, but you're going to find many Scripture conflicts, like the ones I covered, and this one...

IKing 17:20-22
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast Thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray Thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.(KJV)

And this...

Ps 11:5
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth.
(KJV)


Isa 1:14
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hateth: they are a trouble unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
(KJV)

Isa 42:1
1 Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
(KJV)

All those examples for the word "soul" are the same Hebrew word. Thus, when God speaks of His own Soul, is He speaking of flesh? Obviously not. That word nephesh is used in many various ways, but it's especially about the 'person', the individual, the id, the ego, etc. It is connected with spirit per 1 Thess.5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. It is in a place 'within' us, like our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 17:21 with Greek entos ("within", meaning 'inside' you), and Paul showed in Acts 17:27-28. This is where the idea of our bodies being temples comes from. It's that part of us which is different than our mere flesh.

This is why Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5 that if our flesh body ("earthly house") were "dissolved", we have a building of God, an house not made with hands (not of flesh), eternal in the heavens (heavenly dimension body). That's the operation Jesus showed in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man, and with saying to the malefactor crucified with Him that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise.

The 'dead in the ground' idea is a fleshy doctrine. No doubt the idea came about by trying to steer clear of what the pagans believed of what happens after flesh death. The dead in the ground doctrines even have a problem with Paul and Peter's usage of Greek pagan words like haides and tartaroo, some of the few available Greek terms to refer to the heavenly dimension. They weren't inferring what pagan Greeks believed about the afterlife was all true, but the Apostle's choice of those terms does mean something does exist and continue after flesh death. It probably got developed more as an idea when the first Protestants began separating from the Catholic Church.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran : ". But what you're confusion is causing you to do, is to MOVE that time for the "second death" way forward, at flesh death, starting with the first man to die in Genesis. That's not an idea within God's Word at all."
--------------------

Hi Veteran :

Why do you attempt to put words into my mouth , so that you can try and make your point ? ?

What profit is it to make such redundant comments as this one above ? ?

I have not moved anything !

Adam is dead and awaiting his resurrection just like everyone else who has died, including King David ! ! As I know I have pointed out to you already ! !

Yes, God destroys the soul in the second death. But he does not kill the soul in the second death. I have already explained this to you ! ! The reason the soul dies upon the death of the body is because of sin ! I would think that you would recognize this by now. The soul , upon the death of the body, does not go into a pickle jar awaiting some future event ! It goes to the grave when the body dies.

As far as the soul being restored and coming back to the dead person. First, the soul didn't go anywhere other than the grave where the body went. To restore the soul, is to bring it back to life once again, by breathing life back into the soul. God is the one who first breathed life into the soul. And after death , to restore the soul back to life once again, God does the same again. The soul has life, but it also dies once breath life is gone. The soul does not go anywhere ! It goes to the grave with the body ! I should not have to point out all the verses that back up what I am saying, again and again. If you don't get the understanding, then you just don't get it.

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran :saying to the malefactor crucified with Him that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise."

----------------

Hi Veteran :

The words with the malefactor pertain to --- "in that day". Not that very day that Jesus died ! Paradise if future, in fact it is many thousands of years away.

When Jesus died, he went to his grave/tomb , and his soul went there with him ! Here again, I have pointed out the verses that pertain to the soul of Jesus Christ. Do I need to quote them to you time and time again ? God did not leave his soul in the grave. Three days and three nights later , God raised him from the dead - body and soul !

 

[veteran]

Yes, God destroys the soul in the second death. But he does not kill the soul in the second death.

I don't think you even realize the words of confusion your saying. God destroying one's soul at the "second death" IS like the killing of one's soul.

The "second death" is the complete destruction of the soul when cast into the "lake of fire". That is a one-time event. It ONLY will happen AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign, as written. That's what the Greek word apollumi means, to destroy fully. See also Psalms 37.

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

 

[Bick]

Veteran wrote:
Bick wrote:
" MY COMMENTS: I'm not sure exactly, but it sounds as if you are equating "resurrection" with "putting on incorruption".

"I assume you can read, so what is our Lord Jesus showing with the story about Lazarus and the rich man? Did He not show that both of them died with their flesh buried, yet their souls were taken to one of two places in the heavenly dimension? (I'm not Catholic, so I'm not pushing their various doctrines on Purgatory.) But either you accept what our Lord Jesus showed there, or you don't. I choose to accept the objects and that order He showed there, regardless that Lazarus and the rich man may have been figurative individuals. The order our Lord Jesus revealed with that just so happens to align with what Paul taught in 2 Cor.5, and also with Eccl.12:5-7 of what happens at flesh death."

"Paul's Message in 1 Cor.15 is teaching the same thing, and even declares there's two different types of bodies, one that is natural or of the flesh, and one that is the "spiritual body". Paul even said that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor.15:49). Have only Christ's servants borne the image of the earthy? No, the unjust have too."

"That's 4 Bible witnesses showing the difference between two dimensions of existence, the earthy and the heavenly. A body of incorruption is of the heavenly order, the "image of the heavenly", also what Paul called "a spiritual body". It is necessary first in order for "this mortal" to put on "immortality". That's what Paul taught when he showed for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ, we must go through both changes, not just one."

MY COMMENTS;

Well, I assume you can read, but have your read what is written in Moses and the Prophets?

Gen. 3:19 "...YOU are dust and to dust shall YOU return."
Job 10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause ME to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause ME to return to dust."
Psa 146:4 Speaking of man "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day
HIs thoughts perish."
Eccl. 12:7 "Man goes to his age-abiding home, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and
the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Capitals my emphasis. It is the man who returns to dust, not just "his body."

IN DEATH, THE GRAVE, THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE, NO REMEBRANCE, NO PRAISE:

Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no rembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa 30:9 "What profit will there be in by blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee?
Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?
Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
Isa 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death cannot celebrate thee..."

And there are others.

AND AS FOR "SOUL", HAVE YOU NOT READ THAT MAN IS A LIVING SOUL, AND IF HE DIES, HE IS A DEAD SOUL?
See Gen.2:7; Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer. 2:34; Ezek. 13:19; 18:4; 22:25-27, etc.

If you would read all the places where "soul" (nephesh-Heb) is used in the OT, especially, you will see that nowhere in the Scriptures is found that the "soul" lives on after death.
Man is a living soul, that is, a living sensate being capable of experiencing life.

THE POPULAR VIEW IS THAT MAN (HIS SOUL? OR SOUL/SPIRIT?) ASCENDS TO HEAVEN UPON DEATH.
BUT JOHN WRITING AFTER OUR LORD'S ASCENSION DECLARES:

"And no one has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13, KJV.

AND PETER REFUTES THE TEACHING THAT THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS ASCENDED "OUT OF HADES" WITH CHRIST:

"For David is not ascended into the heavens...." Acts 2:34

I see the Bible as setting forth LIFE vs. DEATH. And if "death" really means "life" in some other form, then the Bible words are meaningless.

Now, looking at the "Rich man and the beggar, Lazarus, account, IMO, Jesus used many of the traditional parpables and teachings of the Rabins and Jewish leaders, such as the Pharisees, to weave this story.
If you want to read some of them, go to http://www.studylight.org, click on "Commentaries", then to "John Lightfoot commentaries on the Gospels, and work your way to Luke 16. In his commentary, Mr. Lightfoot quotes from a number of the Rabinic teachings.

Other points to consider: In the Luke 16 account, Abraham is said to be alive, right? Yet in John 8:53, the Jews answered Him:
"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?"
Notice, Jesus did not correct them and say, "Oh no, Abraham is alive in his soul in Hades" or something like that. Why? Because Abraham is dead until he is resurrected.

2 Cor. 5:1-9 needs to be studied in it's whole context. First of all, Paul uses a number of metaphors for life in our present body, death, and life in our heavenly body.

1. Our earthly house...tabernacle for "our present body"

2. A building of God, not made with hands, eternal (eonian) in the heavens for "our heavenly body"

3. Naked/unclothed for "death"

Certainly, it was Paul's great desire to not die (not be found naked), but to be caught away to be with the Lord (just as he instructed the Corinthians in his first letter [15:51-55] to them).

In verse 4 he spells it out: "For we that are in this tabernacle (this body) do groan being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (to die), but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Well, that is certainly my hope too, to not die but be alive and changed at the rapture to have a spiritual body, when this mortal puts on immortality. Then, as it is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory Life).

Parentheses mine.

In Eccl 12:5-7, I see the writer using a number of metaphors for death, when the dust returns to the earth as it was: and then the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Our spirit is our life force related to breath. We are alive as long as we are breathing, and when we expire, our spirit (life force) returns to God who gave it.
It is not a separate entity that lives independent of the body.

I disagree with your exegesis that "the rich man and Lazarus" story, 2 Cor.5, an Eccl 12:5-7 align with eadh other.

 

[Hawkins]

that nowhere in the Scriptures is found that the "soul" lives on after death.

The problem is that your claim is not true.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The same concept can also be found in other early Jews religious document, the book of Enoch,

Chapter 22:3-4
Then Raphael, one of the Holy Angels who was with me, answered me, and said to me: "These beautiful places are there so that the spirits, the souls of the dead, might be gathered into them. For them they were created; so that here they might gather the souls of the sons of men.
And these places they made, where they will keep them until the day of judgement, and until their appointed time, and that appointed time will be long, until the great judgement comes upon them.


So an explanation is required to explain both. The more reasonable one is that those evidence about "soul doesn't live beyond physical" are actually talking about a general concept that we as humans no longer return to life on earth after death. And that won't contradict the concept of "our soul will fall for a sleep", we remember nothing this way. But if we truly remember nothing since our physical death, the final judgment becomes meaningless. Why should you be judge while remembering nothing?!!!!!!!

Samual ever showed up after death. Moses and Elijah ever showed up after death. So the claim that their souls/spirits don't exist or they don't remember anything after death is quite baseless. Yet as a general truth we disconnect ourselves from this physical world after death, that's the notion of "we don't remember anything".

If you are willing to drill down abit more, you may notice that the 'no soul' not only ridicules the final judgment. It also ridicules the resurrection, what's the point of restoring those who lost their memories then burn them again right away? What for?

It also ridicules the concept of salvation through Jesus Christ. Why do you still need to be SAVED (yep capitalized specially for you) at all when we have already been gone forever. In effect, it denies the NT as a whole. It denies the new covenant which requires souls to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved (from being judged by Law). It is thus an anti-Christ doctrine such that if those believing in such a doctrine are in mistake, they and those fall for it by their preaching will definitely miss the chance of being saved by Jesus Christ. If all humans fall for the doctrine and it is in mistake, the whole mankind will not be able to be saved. And Jesus Christ's sacrifice will thus be wasted.

You guys should really need to re-consider your stance, as reasonably you should be fully held responsible if in case that what you are preaching is a false doctrine, for the souls lost due to your effort.

On the other hand, if you are right, I'll be fine as no soul and no hell at all for me to go. See? God puts His children to an absolutely safe position, spiritually speaking that they don't need to be their life onto any theological doctrine like this. The same 'bet with life" not only exists in the 'hell or no hell' view, but also exists in "believe or unbeliever" view. If you are willing to speculate this 'bet with life' also exists in the 'prophet and false prophet claim. In those cases, the unbelievers bet their life on a view but not the believers, the false prophets bet their life on a claim but not the true prophets. And as a rule of thumb, God keeps His children in an absolutely safe position such that they don't need to be involved in such a 'bet with life'.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[veteran]

MY COMMENTS;

Well, I assume you can read, but have your read what is written in Moses and the Prophets?

Gen. 3:19 "...YOU are dust and to dust shall YOU return."
Job 10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause ME to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause ME to return to dust."
Psa 146:4 Speaking of man "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day
HIs thoughts perish."
Eccl. 12:7 "Man goes to his age-abiding home, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and
the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Capitals my emphasis. It is the man who returns to dust, not just "his body."

IN DEATH, THE GRAVE, THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE, NO REMEBRANCE, NO PRAISE:

Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no rembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa 30:9 "What profit will there be in by blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee?
Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?
Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
Isa 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death cannot celebrate thee..."

And there are others.

AND AS FOR "SOUL", HAVE YOU NOT READ THAT MAN IS A LIVING SOUL, AND IF HE DIES, HE IS A DEAD SOUL?
See Gen.2:7; Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer. 2:34; Ezek. 13:19; 18:4; 22:25-27, etc.

If you would read all the places where "soul" (nephesh-Heb) is used in the OT, especially, you will see that nowhere in the Scriptures is found that the "soul" lives on after death.
Man is a living soul, that is, a living sensate being capable of experiencing life.

THE POPULAR VIEW IS THAT MAN (HIS SOUL? OR SOUL/SPIRIT?) ASCENDS TO HEAVEN UPON DEATH.
BUT JOHN WRITING AFTER OUR LORD'S ASCENSION DECLARES:

"And no one has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13, KJV.

AND PETER REFUTES THE TEACHING THAT THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS ASCENDED "OUT OF HADES" WITH CHRIST:

"For David is not ascended into the heavens...." Acts 2:34

I see the Bible as setting forth LIFE vs. DEATH. And if "death" really means "life" in some other form, then the Bible words are meaningless.

Now, looking at the "Rich man and the beggar, Lazarus, account, IMO, Jesus used many of the traditional parpables and teachings of the Rabins and Jewish leaders, such as the Pharisees, to weave this story.
If you want to read some of them, go to http://www.studylight.org, click on "Commentaries", then to "John Lightfoot commentaries on the Gospels, and work your way to Luke 16. In his commentary, Mr. Lightfoot quotes from a number of the Rabinic teachings.

Other points to consider: In the Luke 16 account, Abraham is said to be alive, right? Yet in John 8:53, the Jews answered Him:
"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?"
Notice, Jesus did not correct them and say, "Oh no, Abraham is alive in his soul in Hades" or something like that. Why? Because Abraham is dead until he is resurrected.

2 Cor. 5:1-9 needs to be studied in it's whole context. First of all, Paul uses a number of metaphors for life in our present body, death, and life in our heavenly body.

1. Our earthly house...tabernacle for "our present body"

2. A building of God, not made with hands, eternal (eonian) in the heavens for "our heavenly body"

3. Naked/unclothed for "death"

Certainly, it was Paul's great desire to not die (not be found naked), but to be caught away to be with the Lord (just as he instructed the Corinthians in his first letter [15:51-55] to them).

In verse 4 he spells it out: "For we that are in this tabernacle (this body) do groan being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (to die), but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Well, that is certainly my hope too, to not die but be alive and changed at the rapture to have a spiritual body, when this mortal puts on immortality. Then, as it is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory Life).

Parentheses mine.

In Eccl 12:5-7, I see the writer using a number of metaphors for death, when the dust returns to the earth as it was: and then the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Our spirit is our life force related to breath. We are alive as long as we are breathing, and when we expire, our spirit (life force) returns to God who gave it.
It is not a separate entity that lives independent of the body.

I disagree with your exegesis that "the rich man and Lazarus" story, 2 Cor.5, an Eccl 12:5-7 align with eadh other.

I've heard that idea that our Lord Jesus was simply using a Jewish parable tradition with the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that He made it up and applied 'their' understanding of what happens after flesh death. That's just another theory by the 'dead in the ground' theorists to try and get around what our Lord Jesus was showing. They do the same things with what our Lord Jesus said to the malefactor crucified with Him, trying to say our Lord Jesus meant the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise some day in the future at His return, and not that day of the crucifixion as it's written.

I've also seen Eccl.9 misused by the 'dead in the ground' theorists which declares the dead no more have any reward, and the memory of them is forgetten, misapplying that to those in Christ Jesus when it's actually about the wicked who perish forever. Eccl.9 goes deeper than just the simple idea that everyone dies; it switches back and forth about the wicked and the righteous, and hints at the concept of eternal death for the wicked.

Also, some KJV OT verses about the 'dead' are actually about the giants, like that Ps.88 verse you quoted, with the Hebrew 'rapha' which is about the "Rephaim", the giants. It means the giants won't be resurrected. It's not to be applied to those in Christ.

I prefer the KJV rendering of Eccl.12...

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
(KJV)

That word spirit is also applied to the person, so of course it is about the spirit God breathed into man (Ps.31:5; Luke 23:46). God's breath is not simply oxygen in the atmosphere. In John 3 our Lord Jesus even showed these two separate operations between our flesh and our spirit when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6). But the 'dead in the ground' theorists confuse the two, and treat the flesh like it is of spirit too. And what's that "silver cord" there about?

Gen 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(KJV)

Gen.2:7 is to be remembered with God breathing into Adam's flesh the breath of Life, and that must be understood ALONG with that Gen.3:19 verse, along with the Eccl.12:5-7 order, and the 2 Cor.5 order that Paul showed, and even what our Lord showed in John 3:6 with making a distinction between the two orders of flesh and spirit. Our flesh body returns back to the elements of the earth where it came from, and that's the only part of us that returns to the dust.

Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
(KJV)

What did God mean that man "also is flesh"? He's pointing to just one part of our being with flesh; we have another part He created us with too, and it is not flesh.

Job 10 and Ps.90 is in the same metaphorical sense about the dust. It's only our flesh part that returns to the dust.

Ps.146 is not a good choice to try and prove the 'dead in the ground' theory either, because like Eccl.9, there's a comparison between the wicked and the righteous there too.

Ps 146:3-4
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
(KJV)

Notice how verse 4 picks up the subject of those in verse 3, princes and son of man, put for those of this world without Christ. For the wicked, they will not have eternal Life through Christ Jesus. That's the idea there, of wrongly putting one's trust in man who can cannot preserve one's soul in eternity.

Ps 6:3-5
3 My soul is also sore vexed: but Thou, O LORD, how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for Thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?
(KJV)

How will God deliver one's soul if it already perished with the flesh that came from the earth? The Psalmist is pleading for the saving of his soul, instead of it perishing with the wicked.

Isa 38:18
18 For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can not celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
(KJV)

That word for "pit" is applied in many cases as a well, cistern, and a dungeon. That's about the pit prison of hell, not just a grave in the ground. Truly, those who are sent to hell can't celebrate, nor hope for God's truth. The word for "grave" there is sheowl, put for the idea of Haides or hell.

With the Ps.30:9, you must have missed what a previous verse in that same chapter declared...

Ps 30:3 O LORD, Thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
(KJV)

Notice the contrast there of God bringing up one's soul from the grave, keeping it alive, vs. letting it go down to the pit of hell. Acts 2 has a parallel to that with Christ's resurrection, that His soul was not left in hell.

And John in regards to Christ's Ascension, is pointing to Christ sitting on the right hand of The Father, at His Throne. No man has done that, which is even why John was shown souls under the altar in Rev.6:9-10 that had been slain for the Word of God and their testimony. The LORD is Who showed John that vision in Rev.6. Nor do I think for one minute that John forgot about Elijah being taken up into heaven...

II Ki 2:11
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
(KJV)

And I see you're trying to use the old Acts 2 trick of what David said about our Lord Jesus. Here's the full story, instead of that miserable chop up of one verse you did...

Acts 2:29-32
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on His throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(KJV)

Christ's flesh body didn't see corruption, for it was transfigured. But what's this part in the 31st verse, "that his soul was not left in hell"? That's a parallel like the Ps.30:3 verse.

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.
(KJV)

Not at the day of Christ's second coming, but at THAT DAY of the crucifixion is what our Lord Jesus was talking about.

 

[Mysteryman]

Yes, God destroys the soul in the second death. But he does not kill the soul in the second death.

I don't think you even realize the words of confusion your saying. God destroying one's soul at the "second death" IS like the killing of one's soul.

The "second death" is the complete destruction of the soul when cast into the "lake of fire". That is a one-time event. It ONLY will happen AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign, as written. That's what the Greek word apollumi means, to destroy fully. See also Psalms 37.

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Hi Veteran :

You are mistaken about what the second death is all about. The second death is an awareness. You are suggesting that in the second death, that all those going there literally die again. They don't !!

Let me see if I can help you with your misconception here.

Death here upon this earth , pertaining to these fleshly bodies, when they die, it is a literal death. We stop breathing and the body dies and goes back to the earth from where it was taken. The soul was given breath life, and when breath life ends, so does the soul also die along with the body. The grave could be a hole in the ground, or a hewed out tomb, or as Elijah, his body thrown upon a high mountain, or all those who die on the sea and their bodies fell into the sea, then the sea was their grave.

In a literal death, there is no remembrance , no thoughts, nothing for the one who is dead, total void and empty of life.

In the second death, there is remembrance, there are thoughts, as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us. In the second death, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is what it means, when God destroys the body and soul. He does not kill them, but he does destroy their ability to have peace with the Lord God. The second death is figurative, not literal ! It is a place of sorry , hence the word "weeping". It is a place of gnashing of teeth, which is to resemble an inability to use one's soul. Our speech with reason, is our ability and capability of using our soul. Remember this verse - "What profit it a man, if he gains the whole world, yet looses his own soul" ? In the second death, they have their soul, but it is rendered incapable of use, so this is why the figurative statement that there will be gnashing of teeth.

They want water to quench their thirst and will not find anyone to give them water. They want to speak, but all they can do is gnash their teeth, which is like a grinding of one's teeth. The second death is eternal damnation. This is derserving because of their greed while they were here upon this earth. Death and the grave are thrown into the Lake of fire, because there will no longer be any death or the captivity of the grave. Everyone will be judged righteously by God himself. Those being thrown into the lake of fire, God has judged righteously that they belong there.

When Jesus was teaching about being born again, his disciples took him literally, and thought that they might need to go back into their mothers womb. I see the same thing happening here within your reasoning of death and the second death. You take both to mean a literal death, which is your mistake, just as the disciples made the same mistake when Jesus was talking about being born again.

I pray this helps.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Veteran:

I have just read your reply to other posters here within this thread. And what I noticed was many misconceptions on your part within this discussion. One being, the discussion about the body, soul and spirit of man.

You do not seperate the soul and spirit of man.

1. The body once it dies, returns to dust

2. The soul dies, once breath life is no longer

3. The spirit of man goes back to God who is the giver of the spirit of man.

Another misconception I noticed, was when you tried to explain about Elijah. You think Elijah went to heaven. But you are mistaken. In Genesis 1:1, God didn't create the heaven and the earth, he created the heavens < plural.

When Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind, he was taken up into heaven. But which heaven ? There are heavens, not just heaven. Throw up a ball into the air, and the ball now is in heaven. The ball returns to the earth because the first heaven is just above this earth. God did not want anyone to find the body of Elijah, just as God did not want anyone to find the body of Moses either. Elisha the prophet after Elijah made reference to this in II Kings chapter 2, (read verses 2 and 6 - "as thy soul liveth" which means it will die soon ) we read of the words of Elisha in II Kings 2:16 - 18. Don't go ! Don't go looking for the body of Elijah.

As long as the body lives, the soul lives as well. When the body dies, the soul dies as well. The spirit of man goes back to God who gave it, but the body and soul are dead. When Elijah was taken up to the first heaven, he died, and his body fell back to one of the high mountains. God hid the body of Elijah from them. His body and soul are dead ! Like everyone else who has died, likewise, Elijah awaits the resurrection from the dead. The same for Moses and King David.

 

[Kevin Lowery]

the truth is people who repent & put their sins under the blood of Christ (aka christians) go to heaven. people who reject the true Christ & live in sin burn forever in the eternal flames of hell.

 

[Bick]

Hi Veteran. If we start withe the premise that man's soul is immortal, a number of questions need to be answered.
1. If there is the hades (hell) as described in the Luke 16 account, then why did't God warn Adam and Eve that they would not only "physically die", but their souls would be in new bodies in some part of "hades": either the painful side or the pleasant side. And, it must be dark, except for the "flames of the fire." And, of course, there is no bosom of Abraham to rest on, for Abraham was not even born (or died).
So, SHAME ON GOD for not telling Adam and Eve the consequences of sin beyond "physical death." They could have warned Cain, the first murderer. And why did'nt God warn Cain so that he could warn all his offspring?

2. Again, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the literal truth, that man's soul is a separate entity that cannot die, then again, SHAME ON GOD for guiding Moses and the Prophets to write in so many places that man is a living soul and his soul can DIE when he dies, thus telling us something false.

3. And SHAME ON LAZARUS for not proclaiming he was with Father Abraham in heavenly bliss. Then, surely he must have complained when he was brought back to life on the earth; and why didn't he warn others of all the fires of torment in the "other side of hades" prepared for all evil doers, such as those being rich and not having sympaty on a poor beggar?

4. With myriads of human souls suffering all these years, from Adam on, without even being judged, how unfair God is, if the above premise is true.
We know that all those who haven't been resurrected (vivified) will be resurrected to stand before Jesus on His Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) to be judged for their deeds. Can you imagine how grateful those who have been in torment in hades (hell) will be, just to be standing with many others out of the flames?

Just imagine our human courts doing something like that: torturing someone for, say, even 15 years, while keeping him alive, then bring him back to court and sentence him to say, 5 years.

5. And, of course, the Apostle Paul was wrong to write that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Surely, he misinterpreted what the Spirit of Truth would have him pen. Again, if we hold as truth what he wrote, then God is evidently misleading us.

6. Following the premise: if man's soul is immortal, than all humans live forever, and John 3:16 is meaningless, for "even those who do not believe in Jesus have everlasting life."

I could go on, but, whether believing or not believing this premise should not detract from the good news that Christ shed his blood for the sins of all mankind, that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses against them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

 

[ORwarriOR]

To think God would stay angry at sinners forever goes against the mercy of God, and kills our own mercy too. I don't want to start a huge argument again but;

Micah 7:
18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.

Psalms 30:
5 For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
weeping may remain for a night,
but rejoicing comes in the morning.

Jeremiah 3:12
I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.

“And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.†– Micah 6:8

Peter 2 (NIV)
12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

The peter verse is the most important to me, and I think it illustrates a very important point. If everyone perished in this lifetime like beasts, why would they make that distinction between the wicked and the righteous? Unless of course all beasts will be tortured for an eternity as well.