The Five Points of Calvinism

[Butch5]

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Butch5--That's how the Reformers translated it, that's not what the Greek says…
I submit that foreknowledge doesn't man (sic) God knowing the future but rather God having known them (Jews) in the past.

Yes, foreknowledge does mean God knowing the future. “foreknowledge” meant the same thing then that it does now. "knowledge of something before it exists or happens"
JUSTIN MARTYR in THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN [150-160 A.D.] Writing in Greek says:
CHAPTER XXVIII -- GOD'S CARE FOR MEN.
… For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He fore-knows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. And this is the greatest profanity and wickedness.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

My statement was in reference to the passage in question. Notice that I said, 'I submit it doesn't mean'. I didn't say it can't mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

You haven't refuted a single thing, you have just ignored the obvious context of what Paul wrote.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ah, I see. So Double Predestination hinges around the one letter U in TULIP. 'D_U_P', so to speak.
And since DUP has to do with Election (E) and our Destiny (D), we could just call it DUPED then, huh?

:yes

All joking aside, good summary in your post. It makes a lot of sense.

The quote Deborah13 posted of Calvin's is the first writings of Calvin I've ever read. Really! I sure do hear people speak for him a lot, though. I doubt they are getting his beliefs correct though since many of these people, speaking for him, seem to be presenting contradictory positions of his views. Some people use the term HyperCalvinism (I think by that they mean DUPED, double predestination of the elected kind). But if it's not based on Calvinism, then why call it Hypercalvinism? Makes no sense to me why they use the term Hypercalvinism. I suspect I know why they do that though.

I doubt I'd agree with everything Mr. Calvin said though, even if I did read him. I don't even agree with my wife on several topics. And I'm in love with her. Plus, she looks a lot better.

The verse Calvin used to justify/defend what he said in the previously mentioned quotation/commentary on what Paul says in Rom 9:18 ("that not only the destruction of the wicked is foreknown, but that the wicked themselves have been created for this very end — that they may perish") is Pr 16:4. [Which by the way, I think Justin's comments, that I posted, were also Justin's opinions consistent with this very same verse on both subjects too.]

i.e. theses two issues (foreknowledge and DUP) do go together in a fashion.

Proverbs 16:4 ((LEB) All Yahweh has made is for his purpose, and even the wicked for the day of trouble.
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Which of course says what it says. None of us disagree with what it says (hopefully it's translated correctly). We just have differing views of whether God means it as a general Proverb that applies to His overall plan for the redemption of mankind (as I do, even foreshadowing Christ as that plan) or does He mean it on an individual by individual basis (Double Unconditional Predestination, DUP). i.e. does God 'make/force/command/order' some individual people for their 'day of trouble'.
Rather, I think God has foreknowledge that evil mankind (the un-saved, the un-forgiven) are decreed/ordained for their day of destruction.

I think Proverb 16:6 explains a lot.

Proverbs 16:6 (LEB) By loyalty and faithfulness, iniquity will be covered over, and by fear of Yahweh one turns from evil. ​

To make a long story short, I think "by loyalty and faithfulness, iniquity will be covered over" typifies and foreshadows Christ's work of covering over our iniquity. [As in God foreknew that would occur.]

​

Also, 'by fear of Yahweh one turns from evil and this covers their iniquity' puts to bed the idea that people can 'hear the word and immediately receive it with joy' (versus fear the Lord first) and expect their 'joy' to cover their iniquity (Matt 13:20). It is 'fear of the Lord' that will cover their iniquity not joy. In the OT and NT. Joy comes after our iniquity is covered just after 'fear of the Lord', not before. At least it did for me and does per Proverbs 16:6.
The Gospel is good news to a fearful and dying person. But if that person has no fear of the Lord and are happy in their spiritually dead condition, then the true Gospel is hidden from them, in my opinion.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you for explaining your lack of time right now. No need to apologize. Just get as much rest as you can. Love you, too.

Awww thank you Deb. I really appreciate you and your skill and wisdom in the Scriptures. You certainly are a major spoke in the CF.net wheel....I'd really like it if you would come back as a Moderator. You did a fantastic job. A couple of times you helped in my threads of which I was sooo grateful....Please give it some thought & prayer, and talk it over with the Queen of CF.net Reba. ed

 

[Chopper]

where in scripture does it say that?

This was in reference to something John Calvin wrote of which I didn't like the term "chose the wicked."

 

[ezra]

This was in reference to something John Calvin wrote of which I didn't like the term "chose the wicked."

i didn't think that you stood by that . there is some things with Calvinism i agree with others or should i say lots i don,t

 

[JLB]

Joy comes after our iniquity is covered

This statement of yours is consistent with what Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; Luke 8:13a

This joy shows indeed that these were saved... as you say, the joy comes from their iniquity being covered over.

The rest of the verse seems to be where you have trouble, which says -

... and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13b

These, who Jesus described as hearing the Message of Salvation, received it with joy, because they believed.

However, they believed for a while, and the joy of salvation which they obtained through believing, faded away as they turned away from the One in whom they first believed.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; Luke 8:13a

This joy shows indeed that these were saved... as you say, the joy comes from their iniquity being covered over.

The rest of the verse seems to be where you have trouble, which says -

... and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13b

These, who Jesus described as hearing the Message of Salvation, received it with joy, because they believed.

However, they believed for a while, and the joy of salvation which they obtained through believing, faded away as they turned away from the One in whom they first believed.
JLB

Yet, there is no indication at all that they fell away from their salvation. Why do you persist in your opinion when the verse says nothing about falling away from salvation. You're just trying to make a huge leap. But you've missed the other side. Your view falls into the abyss.

We know that once one receives eternal life, which is a gift (charisma) of God, that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

Either you don't know the meaning of irrevocable, or you just don't care. Either way, your view is unsubstantiated from Scripture.

 

[Chopper]

I agree JLB, that they turned away. I hope you meant to say that they believed for a little while but not really saved. I personally believe that of the four, only one was really saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree JLB, that they turned away. I hope you meant to say that they believed for a little while but not really saved. I personally believe that of the four, only one was really saved.

Personally, I believe that 3 were saved; soils 2-4. I believe the evidence is that in those 3 soils, plants germinated from the seed, which would indicate new life, or regeneration. The fact that the 2nd soil only believed for awhile doesn't mean they weren't saved. Luke quoted Jesus as saying they did believe. Anyone who believes is saved.

 

[JLB]

I agree JLB, that they turned away. I hope you meant to say that they believed for a little while but not really saved. I personally believe that of the four, only one was really saved.

Personally, I believe that 3 were saved; soils 2-4. I believe the evidence is that in those 3 soils, plants germinated from the seed, which would indicate new life, or regeneration.

Chopper, your perspective seems to differ from FreeGrace, as he believes 3 of the 4 were saved.

You, on the other hand, believe 1 of the 4 were saved.

I would like to discuss this with you, starting from the perspective where you both agree, which is group # 1, the ones by the wayside, which I believe we all agree were not saved.

You both agree this group was not saved, yet it is from Jesus words about this group that we understand what qualifies one to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus teaches His disciples that the very thing for one to be saved is to believe, as He says lest they believe and be saved.


It is from these words of Jesus that I draw the conclusion: Believe = Saved


What do you say?


JLB

 

[Jonathan]

I find it odd so many Christians believe in the "5 Points". Did Jesus teach even a single one of these points?

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, your perspective seems to differ from FreeGrace, as he believes 3 of the 4 were saved.

You, on the other hand, believe 1 of the 4 were saved.

I would like to discuss this with you, starting from the perspective where you both agree, which is group # 1, the ones by the wayside, which I believe we all agree were not saved.

You both agree this group was not saved, yet it is from Jesus words about this group that we understand what qualifies one to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus teaches His disciples that the very thing for one to be saved is to believe, as He says lest they believe and be saved.


It is from these words of Jesus that I draw the conclusion: Believe = Saved


What do you say?


JLB

Ok JLB. Lets look at the explanation that Jesus gave to his Disciples upon their asking for it.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
8:14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
8:15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

8:12 The path. These people heard the Gospel, BUT, Satan comes along and "takes away" the words of the Gospel, end result? NOT SAVED!

8:13 The rock. They hear the Gospel, and receive it with joy, BUT, because they have no past experience with godly matter, they believe until some testing comes along and they FALL AWAY. End result, NOT SAVED.

8:14 The thorns. The hear the Gospel, but their lives have no room for Jesus because of their lives are full of pleasure, toys, and wealth. End result? NOT SAVED.

8:15 The good soil. This heart has been prepared by the Holy Spirit (perhaps the Elect) with an "honest heart" Result? SAVED.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok JLB. Lets look at the explanation that Jesus gave to his Disciples upon their asking for it.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
8:14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
8:15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

8:12 The path. These people heard the Gospel, BUT, Satan comes along and "takes away" the words of the Gospel, end result? NOT SAVED!

8:13 The rock. They hear the Gospel, and receive it with joy, BUT, because they have no past experience with godly matter, they believe until some testing comes along and they FALL AWAY. End result, NOT SAVED.

8:14 The thorns. The hear the Gospel, but their lives have no room for Jesus because of their lives are full of pleasure, toys, and wealth. End result? NOT SAVED.

8:15 The good soil. This heart has been prepared by the Holy Spirit (perhaps the Elect) with an "honest heart" Result? SAVED.

So, it seems you reject that one who has believed, per Luke 8:13 was saved, then. Is that your view?

If so, what verse/passage teaches that one must believe for some specific period of time before they are saved?

Or, since Paul was clear that eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable, how can one argue against any of that?

Oh, and, btw, Jesus said that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, per Jn 5:24.

From all that, it should be obvious that the second soil, which did believe, was saved.

 

[JLB]

Ok JLB. Lets look at the explanation that Jesus gave to his Disciples upon their asking for it.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
8:14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
8:15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

8:12 The path. These people heard the Gospel, BUT, Satan comes along and "takes away" the words of the Gospel, end result? NOT SAVED!

8:13 The rock. They hear the Gospel, and receive it with joy, BUT, because they have no past experience with godly matter, they believe until some testing comes along and they FALL AWAY. End result, NOT SAVED.

8:14 The thorns. The hear the Gospel, but their lives have no room for Jesus because of their lives are full of pleasure, toys, and wealth. End result? NOT SAVED.

8:15 The good soil. This heart has been prepared by the Holy Spirit (perhaps the Elect) with an "honest heart" Result? SAVED.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus teaches His disciples that the very thing for one to be saved is to believe, as He says lest they believe and be saved.


It is from these words of Jesus that I draw the conclusion: Believe = Saved


What do you say?

Does Believe = Saved according to the words of Jesus? ...as He says lest they believe and be saved.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus teaches His disciples that the very thing for one to be saved is to believe, as He says lest they believe and be saved.


It is from these words of Jesus that I draw the conclusion: Believe = Saved


What do you say?

Does Believe = Saved according to the words of Jesus? ...as He says lest they believe and be saved.


JLB

Please look again at what the verse is saying prior to "lest they believe and be saved."....Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12....Is not the verse saying, the devil takes the word out of their hearts so that they won't believe and be saved....Please note that the word of the Gospel does not stay in their hearts, it's removed by the devil. If it is removed, the person cannot be saved. The word LEST is the key to the passage.

 

[JLB]

Please look again at what the verse is saying prior to "lest they believe and be saved."....Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12.

Yes sir, that is my point.

Believing is the missing ingredient to being saved.

Those in group # 1 were not saved because they did not believe, because according to Jesus, believing = saved.

...as He said lest they believe and be saved.

By these words, we are taught one must believe to be saved.

Do you agree?

Or is there another way for a person to be saved?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes sir, that is my point.

Believing is the missing ingredient to being saved.

Those in group # 1 were not saved because they did not believe, because according to Jesus, believing = saved.

...as He said lest they believe and be saved.

By these words, we are taught one must believe to be saved.

Do you agree?

Or is there another way for a person to be saved?JLB

I can't wait for you to drop your bomb on Chopper and see what his reply will be!!

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir, that is my point.

Believing is the missing ingredient to being saved.

Those in group # 1 were not saved because they did not believe, because according to Jesus, believing = saved.

...as He said lest they believe and be saved.

By these words, we are taught one must believe to be saved.

Do you agree?

Or is there another way for a person to be saved?


JLB

You are correct. You have to believe in order to be saved. The devil took away the word so they could not believe, thus this group is lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are correct. You have to believe in order to be saved. The devil took away the word so they could not believe, thus this group is lost.

What do you do with the second soil, who "believed for a while"? And the seed produced a plant?