The Five Points of Calvinism

[Choir Loft]

It has been noted at least by some that Five Point Calvinism is influencing the doctrines of evangelical and fundamentalist churches today. According to truthreallymatters.com it is one of the "The 10 Most Deadly Heresies Affecting American Churches in These Last Days".

The Southern Baptist Convention will experience division over this teaching whether they want it or not. Many of their pastors have succumbed to it:


Do you know what this teaching is and how it can be refuted from Scripture? According to truthreallymatters.com:

TULIP (1) can be refuted by scripture only if the student of truth knows a little of recent Presbyterian history and a little of the methods of applied logic. Otherwise you'll just get into a shouting match with snippets of scripture being tossed back and forth like a tennis ball in a tournament. Nothing will be decided.

The weak point in the Calvinist argument is the first one - Total Depravity. The remaining four points all hang upon the first and if you defeat that one, the rest of the argument will collapse of its own weight. Basically stated, if a man is totally depraved then he has completely lost the capacity of reason, to make any decision at all regarding those things which God demands or asks. He cannot decide to trust and obey God or to surrender to Christ. If this is true, then why is the Bible full of statements by God asking and demanding men to choose righteousness? If man cannot decide for God, then why did Jesus insist upon repentance - the ultimate act of decision?

The heresy in TULIP is that it encourages an attitude of fatalism nearly identical with that of Islam. Christianity is all about choice from beginning to end - choose this day who you will serve. It's all about choosing life and not death, God and not self.

It is written that judgment would begin in the house of the Lord. If so, then I don't know quite what to make of a story I heard during our men's Bible study not long ago. Our pastor as well as a couple of elders heard this story from persons who attended a recent national meeting of the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). For generations, the Presbyterian Church has been famous for it's rigid compliance to scripture & morality.

A small group of men usually gather prior to the annual PCUSA meeting to pray for the sessions. That's all the small group does and they do it in a separate nearby location.

The large meeting room has a huge electronic board which is used to tally and display the vote, kind of like the type you see in State legislatures. The annual sessions usually deal with boring matters, but the meeting in question had a radical agenda.

The last item on the agenda was an amendment to the church interpretation of scripture. It asked for a vote to change the view of the Bible from THE word of God to A word of God. When passed it would effectively dilute the substance of the entire book to the level of a secular work. Rumors anticipated that the vote would accept the change by a dramatic margin.

The convention was held for a full week and the weather had been beautiful; warm, clear and sunny. Just before the vote was to be taken the sky suddenly became dark cloudy and ominous. Lightning flashed and a loud clap of thunder shook the entire building. The power went out and the electronic tally board went dark.

When power was restored the vote was taken and the item to change the status of the Bible was accepted. At the same time over in the prayer room, every member suddenly received the impression that they were released from prayer for the PCUSA; permanently.

The persons who told me this story are reliable honest men. They are not taken to flights of fancy or conspiracy theories.

I believe that what they told me is true. The meaning of it, in terms of the tide of future events, eludes me. Let the reader make his or her own conclusions.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1)
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

 

[FreeGrace]

My objection to your idea that soil 2 was saved is that this particular parable is clearly making a prfound distinction (a transition so to speak) from verse 12 to verse 13 as they are different soil types. Thus, a clearly different object of their belief.

Precisely because soil 1 and 2 are different, I believe that means the one was obviously unsaved, because the devil stole away the seed "lest they believe AND be saved". That didn't happen to soil 2. They received the seed (gospel) with joy, AND Jesus said they "believed". The length of time they believed is irrelevant, since there is no Scripture that speaks of any certain time limit on believing before one is saved. In fact, Jesus noted that those who believe ARE saved, per Jn 5:24.

Plus, the text tells us the object of soil #2's belief. It's not monotheism, sure. Or a belief that Seattle would win the Superbowl.

To me, the object of soil 2's belief was joy (good times). Thus they were surprised (scorched) by their affliction. But never saved.

There is no faith in joy. Is that you're saying? They clearly received the seed, which is the gospel, with joy. They received the gospel with joy, and they BELIEVED. What did they believe? In joy? No, in the gospel, which is what saves a person.

The only part of the gospel that one can call "joy" is the fact that Jesus did the dying in our place so that we can be saved. Since they believed, that is what they had to believe.

There were saved. But they fell away from their faith when testing/temptation came their way. Why? No root. No foundational strength. They never grew up in their salvation. Those who don't live like the Corinthians.

 

[chessman]

They received the seed (gospel)

I recognize it's a parable, not history, but you said; They received the Gospel??? Jesus had not been put to death, buried nor ressurected at the time He gave this parable. That's a lot to read into the text, IMO. Plus, per the Text, they only had their own root after hearing The Word. That doesn't sound like they had the Holy Spirit in them to me.

The length of time they believed is irrelevant, ...

Ah, but the object of their belief is entirely relevant.

Galatians 2:19-20 (LEB) ... I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. ​

I think soil #2 never was crucified (condemned) with Christ. They received The Word with immediate joy, remember. It sounds like they were skipping past their recognition of their sins and condemnation thereof. Plus, it makes little sense that Jesus meant they believed in The Gospel since He'd not been raised yet.

If you are like me, you've lived with Christ and the Holy Spirit in you for decades. Maybe it's hard to remember yourself way back when, before you were saved. But as I recall, my first reaction to hearing The Gospel and the conviction by the Holy Spirit was not immediate joy. It was a profound sense of condemnation of and for my sin. Much like what Paul describes in Gal 2:19-20. That condemnation doesn't jive with soil 2's "immediate joy".

There is no faith in joy. Is that you're saying?

I'm saying that soil 2 evidently did not believe themselves to be sinners first. Prior to joy, there must come a time of recognition of our sin and condemnation thereof.

​

 

[FreeGrace]

I recognize it's a parable, not history, but you said; They received the Gospel???

No, I did not ask a question. I made a statement. The parable itself calls the seed the "Word of God" in Luke 8:11. And in v.12 Jesus explained WHY the devil steals the seed (Word of God) away from people; "lest they believe (the Word of God) and be saved" (8:12). Now, we all know that salvation is through believing the gospel, which is the Word of God.

Jesus had not been put to death, buried nor ressurected at the time He gave this parable. That's a lot to read into the text, IMO.

Not at all. The Jews all had Isaiah 53. How do you think people before Jesus were saved?

Plus, per the Text, they only had their own root after hearing The Word. That doesn't sound like they had the Holy Spirit in them to me.

Correct. They didn't. Why? Because Jesus was clear that the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit wouldn't come until AFTER His resurrection.

Ah, but the object of their belief is entirely relevant.

Galatians 2:19-20 (LEB) ... I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. ​

The object of belief is always relevant. Do you think I don't think so? What would lead you to that erroneous understanding of my view?

I think soil #2 never was crucified (condemned) with Christ.

I have no idea what your point is. Gal 2:19-20 was written AFTER Christ's crucifixion and could NOT have been stated before He was crucified. You're conflating unrelated verses together.

They received The Word with immediate joy, remember.

I've never forgotten. And they believed, remember.

It sounds like they were skipping past their recognition of their sins and condemnation thereof.

It does not at all. The seed represents the gospel, which, when believed results in salvation (Lu 8:12). Soil #2 believed the gospel. End of discussion. They believed…therefore…they were saved. You have no evidence to the contrary. Except what you think, as you've noted above. But the text refutes your thoughts.

Plus, it makes little sense that Jesus meant they believed in The Gospel since He'd not been raised yet.

Your statement here suggests that you don't believe that anyone from the OT could be saved, then. Isa 53 is a clear reference to the FUTURE crucifixion of the Messiah, who died for humanity.

If you are like me, you've lived with Christ and the Holy Spirit in you for decades. Maybe it's hard to remember yourself way back when, before you were saved. But as I recall, my first reaction to hearing The Gospel and the conviction by the Holy Spirit was not immediate joy.

How about WHEN you did believe the gospel? Was there joy, or sadness, on your part? Jesus is clearly making the point that soil #1 didn't believe, and soil #2 DID believe. And was saved. Since all who believe the gospel ARE saved.

It was a profound sense of condemnation of and for my sin. Much like what Paul describes in Gal 2:19-20. That condemnation doesn't jive with soil 2's "immediate joy".

Your analysis doesn't jive with Jesus' comments.

I'm saying that soil 2 evidently did not believe themselves to be sinners first.

I think you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the parable. This is what Jesus was saying:

Soil #1 didn't believe the gospel, and wasn't saved.
Soil #2 did believe the gospel and was saved. But only believed until they were tested/tempted, then they fell away and didn't produce any fruit.
Soil #3 believed the gospel but became distracted by life's pleasures, etc, and didn't produce fruit.
Soil #4 believed the gospel and produced fruit. They were neither overcome by testing or distracted by life's pleasures.

The parable is about the various ways people respond to the gospel.[/QUOTE]

 

[chessman]

Your statement here suggests that you don't believe that anyone from the OT could be saved,

No my statement did not suggest that.
Of course people in the OT could be saved.
They have the same two options to be saved as we do.
1. They could have lived a sin free life.
2. They could have believed in The Root described in Is 53 to cleanse them of their sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

No my statement did not suggest that.
Of course people in the OT could be saved.
They have the same two options to be saved as we do.
1. They could have lived a sin free life.
2. They could have believed in The Root described in Is 53 to cleanse them of their sin.

OK, good.

 

[JLB]

All of the discussion about root systems or not, or faith verses believing, or any other such thing is simply and clearly explained by Jesus, with these words...

Lest they believe...and be saved.

Believe = saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

Likewise if believe = saved then believe for awhile = saved for a while.

Simple complete and irrefutable truth from Jesus Christ.

Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for awhile.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Simple complete and irrefutable truth from Jesus Christ.

Believe = saved
Believe for a while = saved for awhile.
JLB

What is irrefutable truth, is that eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God per Rom 6:23, and the gifts (charisma) of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

So your logic is quite flawed. Once a person believes, they are saved. And that gift is irrevocable, as Scripture clearly says.

No one has yet proven from Scripture that Paul never intended, nor did he exclude the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29.

Those who exclude the gift of eternal life as a gift that isn't irrevocable is simply rejecting Scripture.

There are zero verses that plainly SAY that one can lose their salvation or eternal life. Because that gift is irrevocable.

It's interesting to note that the various gifts of the Holy Spirit uses a different Greek word, than the Greek word for "gift" when describing both salvation in Eph 2:8 and eternal life in Rom 6:23.

Your view has been refuted, soundly. Eternal life is irrevocable, but one must reject either Rom 6:23 or Rom 11:29 or both in order to continue to claim that salvation can be lost.

 

[chessman]

I have no idea what your point is.

I will post it a second time here:

I think soil #2 never were crucified (condemned) with Christ.

Isaiah 53:1-2, 11-12 (LEB) Who has believed our message,and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? ​

Good question. Did soil #2 believe in the message AND have the object The Arm (The Root)?

Or did they believe in another object (themselves, their own root)? Their immediate joy and Jesus saying they had no root in themselves indicates they did not believe themselves to be transgressors/sinners nor have His Root in them.

For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground.
​

[notice that in this Is 53 passage, it is Jesus that is The Root. Yet in soil #2's clarification they had no Root in themselves.]

In his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, shall declare many righteous,and he is the one who will bear their iniquities.

Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many,and with the strong ones he will divide bounty,because he poured his life out to death and was counted with the transgressors;and he was the one who bore the sin of many and will intercede for the transgressors.
​

As I pointed out in my first post here, in order for one to be saved via The Gospel it is necessary for that someone to first see their own sin and condemnation thereof. Not first feel immediate joy. AND to have The Root (Jesus) in them. Soil 2 had neither.

believe for awhile = saved for a while.

Simple complete and irrefutable truth from Jesus Christ.

JLB

Except of course Jesus Christ never said "believe for a while = saved for a while". JLB did. I understand you think that's what Jesus said. You err. Evidently you've repeated your statement so often, that you think Jesus actually said it.

Nor is JLB's statement above a complete statement of what Jesus said about soil 1 or soil 2. You both can disregard that Jesus said soil #2 had no Root in themselves till the cows come home. It's not a complete clarification to the parable without those clarifying words of Jesus in it though. Just as it's obvious some people can't find Jesus (The Root) prophecied in Is 53. The Jews, till this day, still think it's a prophecy about them, not Jesus their Messiah. Odd really.

As for how you both start out your argument (premise 1) with soil 1:
"Believe = saved"
You neither know logic very well evidently.

The text of Luke says of soil 1 "the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved."

"Believe AND be saved". When you AND some thing with another thing you need both things to complete the operation. Heat AND oxygen = fire.

The AND is there for a reason. Nowhere in logic does an AND mean equals to. Don't believe me? Read Is 53 again:

Who has believed our message,and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?​

Believing the message is one thing.
Revealing The Arm of Yahweh is another thing.

For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground.​

Jesus is like a shoot AND like a root.

You'd have a better point if Jesus would have said; 'the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.

But that's not what He said either.

 

[FreeGrace]

I will post it a second time here:

Isaiah 53:1-2, 11-12 (LEB) Who has believed our message,and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? ​

Good question. Did soil #2 believe in the message AND have the object The Arm (The Root)?

This is nothing more than conflating 2 different passages. It is not proper to import one text upon another, especially when the second text is a parable, for goodness' sake.

What we do know is that Luke recorded that Jesus SAID that the second soil BELIEVED. Do you believe what Luke wrote? If not, I think you have a problem.

The text is very clear: the second soil believed for a while and then fell away from their faith.

Or did they believe in another object (themselves, their own root)?

Your ruminations and imagination add nothing to the text. Well, just confusion.

Their immediate joy and Jesus saying they had no root in themselves indicates they did not believe themselves to be transgressors/sinners nor have His Root in them.

Seriously? Jesus was clear about what He meant in Luke 8:12 by "lest they BELIEVE and be saved". He was making that point that those who BELIEVE are saved. And then He went on to say that the second soil BELIEVED for a while. They were saved.

BTW, the gospel is about the FACT that we are sinners, and need saving. The joy of the second soil would relate to their happiness that Jesus died for them.

Remember, the seed represents the gospel.

For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground.

Irrelevant to the parable.
​

[notice that in this Is 53 passage, it is Jesus that is The Root. Yet in soil #2's clarification they had no Root in themselves.]

The parable relates to an agricultural economy, where everyone understood what happens to plants that don't "take root" because of shallow soil, which means a lack of nutrients and water. Such plants cannot produce fruit, which is the point of the parable.

Your forcing Isa 53 into the parable is nothing short of "spiritualizing" the parable.

​

As I pointed out in my first post here, in order for one to be saved via The Gospel it is necessary for that someone to first see their own sin and condemnation thereof. Not first feel immediate joy. AND to have The Root (Jesus) in them. Soil 2 had neither.

These assumptions are simply preposterous. When one BELIEVES, do they feel joy that Jesus died for them, or sad that they are sinners? Gimme a break!!

Except of course Jesus Christ never said "believe for a while = saved for a while". JLB did. I understand you think that's what Jesus said. You err.

No, you err again. JLB is totally wrong about his claims. Paul was clear that eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God, in Rom 6:23, AND he wrote that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). So please don't lay that nonsense of loss of salvation on me.

I KNOW what Jesus said. He said the second soil BELIEVED for a while. But because they did BELIEVE, they are SAVED.

Evidently you've repeated your statement so often, that you think Jesus actually said it.

I have no problem repeating what Luke quoted Jesus as saying: "they BELIEVED for a while". It's you who doesn't BELIEVE what Luke wrote.

Nor is JLB's statement above a complete statement of what Jesus said about soil 1 or soil 2. You both can disregard that Jesus said soil #2 had no Root in themselves till the cows come home.

Let's just leave him out of this, ok? He won't accept Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29.

As for how you both start out your argument (premise 1) with soil 1:
"Believe = saved"
You neither know logic very well evidently.

Please quit equating my view with his. I REJECT his view completely.

The text of Luke says of soil 1 "the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved."

"Believe AND be saved". When you AND some thing with another thing you need both things to complete the operation. Heat AND oxygen = fire.

You're preaching to the choir here.

Believing the message is one thing.
Revealing The Arm of Yahweh is another thing.

Are you saying that salvation is some kind of 2 step dance?

For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground.

​

Jesus is like a shoot AND like a root.

Totally irrelevant to the parable of the soils. You are just spiritualizing a parable.

 

[JLB]

What is irrefutable truth, is that eternal life is a gift (charisma) of God per Rom 6:23, and the gifts (charisma) of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

So your logic is quite flawed. Once a person believes, they are saved. And that gift is irrevocable, as Scripture clearly says.

No one has yet proven from Scripture that Paul never intended, nor did he exclude the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29.

Those who exclude the gift of eternal life as a gift that isn't irrevocable is simply rejecting Scripture.

There are zero verses that plainly SAY that one can lose their salvation or eternal life. Because that gift is irrevocable.

It's interesting to note that the various gifts of the Holy Spirit uses a different Greek word, than the Greek word for "gift" when describing both salvation in Eph 2:8 and eternal life in Rom 6:23.

Your view has been refuted, soundly. Eternal life is irrevocable, but one must reject either Rom 6:23 or Rom 11:29 or both in order to continue to claim that salvation can be lost.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off... 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:20-22,29

V.22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off...

The gifts and calling are irrevocable, and in this context Paul is addressing the gifts and calling of the New Covenant that is still extended to the Jews.

Paul warns Gentile Christians in very plain Covenant language...

• V.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

We must believe and continue... otherwise be cut off.

• V.22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul teaches that they will be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

• V.23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Likewise, the second soil who believed for a while, then turned away, must also believe again, and not continue in unbelief, in order to be grafted back in.

Believe = saved.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No one has yet proven from Scripture that Paul never intended, nor did he exclude the gift of eternal life from Rom 11:29.

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Gifts -Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma

Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

Paul uses the same word in the very next Chapter of Romans, stating we have different "gifts" that all flow from Grace.

6 Having then gifts [charisma] differing according to the grace [charis] that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; Romans 12:6

Paul says of Charisma that we have been given different gifts or endowments of God's grace.

Charisma comes from the word Charis which is translated in English as Grace.

God's gift to us is His Grace. For by grace you have been saved...

For by grace you have been saved...through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


God's gift to us is His Grace, by which we are saved, through faith.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The eternal life is being IN CHRIST JESUS!
Outside of Christ Jesus there is no eternal life. It is by grace we are granted the right to be in [Covenant with] Christ Jesus whereby we have eternal life.

If we are cut off from Christ then we are cut off from eternal life.

We are cut off from Christ if we become covenant breakers.

Gift - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma

Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Likewise, the second soil who believed for a while, then turned away, must also believe again, and not continue in unbelief, in order to be grafted back in.

Believe = saved.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.JLB

You have failed to show that Paul wasn't including the gift (charisma) of eternal life as being irrevocable. God's gifts (charisma) ARE irrevocable. That is irrefutable.

Unless you can do that, you have no point.

And, since it IS irrefutable that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable, you can't prove otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

One of these gifts (charisma) is eternal life, per Rom 6:23.

Gifts -Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma
Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

Paul uses the same word in the very next Chapter of Romans, stating we have different "gifts" that all flow from Grace.

Your point?? He also used that EXACT SAME WORD in Rom 6:23 regarding eternal life. Your refusal to accept that FACT does great harm to your view that salvation can be lost.

Paul says of Charisma that we have been given different gifts or endowments of God's grace.

Paul used that EXACT SAME WORD (charisma) for eternal life in Rom 6:23 and salvation in Eph 2:8.

Charisma comes from the word Charis which is translated in English as Grace.

God's gift to us is His Grace. For by grace you have been saved...

And it is by His grace that He gifts us eternal life, which is synonymous with salvation.

Eternal life and salvation are irrevocable charisma of God.

For by grace you have been saved...through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

Thanks for making my point.

The eternal life is being IN CHRIST JESUS!
Outside of Christ Jesus there is no eternal life. It is by grace we are granted the right to be in [Covenant with] Christ Jesus whereby we have eternal life.

We know from Eph 1:13,14 that those who believe are placed in Christ Jesus.

Now, IF you can produce any verse that tells us that failure to continue to believe results in being placed back outside of Jesus Christ, you would have a point. But, as it stands (fact), Eph 1:13,14, and 4:30 tells us WHY we are sealed by the Holy Spirit; for the day of redemption. In fact, that is God's promise to those who have believed.

What you still don't seem to get is the FACT that there are ZERO verses that tell us that salvation or eternal life can be revoked, or lost in any kind of wording.

If we are cut off from Christ then we are cut off from eternal life.

What verse supports your opinion here? ZERO. None. Why do you believe an unsubstantiated opinion?

We are cut off from Christ if we become covenant breakers.

Again, zero support from Scripture to support your opinion.

Gift - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma
Definition

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy SpiritJLB

Again, thanks for making my point!! Eternal life is a charisma, per Rom 6:23. And salvation is also a charisma, per Eph 2:8.

So, eternal life and salvation are IRREVOCABLE.

You have not proven your case in the slightest. But you have demonstrated a disinterest in Truth.

 

[JLB]

One of these gifts (charisma) is eternal life, per Rom 6:23.

Romans 6:23 says -

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Not eternal life, but eternal life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ, means in Covenant with Christ.

If you are not in Christ, then the eternal life is not in you.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His, and if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:9-10

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who live a life of unrepentant sin will receive the wages of sin, which is death.

Covenant breakers will be dealt with by the lord when He returns, if they continue to practice sin and the works of the flesh.

"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51


... and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

Cut in pieces or cut in two is covenant language. See Genesis 15

 

[JLB]

Your point?? He also used that EXACT SAME WORD in Rom 6:23 regarding eternal life. Your refusal to accept that FACT does great harm to your view that salvation can be lost.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

If you choose to turn away from Christ, then you are no longer in Christ.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 6:23 says -

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Not eternal life, but eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Yes, sure. Those who have believed have been placed in union with Christ. Where are ANY verses that tell us that anyone who has been placed in Christ can be, or has been, removed from union with Christ? There aren't any.

In Christ, means in Covenant with Christ.

If you are not in Christ, then the eternal life is not in you.

Sure. I fully agree. But you're still not reading WHOLE verses.
Eph 1:13,14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You would have a point, ONLY IF you had verses that SAY that loss of faith equals loss of salvation. You believe an opinion; not what Scripture says.

Do you know what a pledge means? It is God's PROMISE that those who have been placed in Christ (sealed in Him) have been sealed WITH A VIEW TO THE REDEMPTION OF GOD'S OWN POSSESSION.

Apparently you don't understand what that means. So I'll explain it to you. Those who have believed are given the right to be called God's children. No verses that indicate that this can be reversed or revoked.

Those who have believed have been sealed with a view to REDEMPTION. Why? Because those who have believed are God's OWN POSSESSION.

Eph 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Very clear. Those who have believed have been sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Do you have any verses that indicate that believers can lose the sealing of the Holy Spirit. You do NOT.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His, and if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:9-10

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who live a life of unrepentant sin will receive the wages of sin, which is death.

Your opinion is NOT supported by Rom 6:23 or any other verse.

Covenant breakers will be dealt with by the lord when He returns, if they continue to practice sin and the works of the flesh.

Yes, they will. But NOT by the revocation of His charisma. Because the charisma of God is IRREVOCABLE.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

If you choose to turn away from Christ, then you are no longer in Christ.
JLB

Why can't you prove your opinion with Scripture? Believers (WHEN they believe-Eph 1:13) are sealed for the day of redemption. It is sad that some seem not to understand what that means. Just as some seem not to understand what irrevocable means.

All you have are opinions about what you think is true. But you haven't supported ANY of your opinions with Scripture.

 

[Obadiah]

Enough of the bickering.

A&T Guidelines: Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

ToS 2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[JLB]

Yes, sure. Those who have believed have been placed in union with Christ. Where are ANY verses that tell us that anyone who has been placed in Christ can be, or has been, removed from union with Christ? There aren't any.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


and again -

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

and again -

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB