The Five Points of Calvinism

[FreeGrace]

Ask him, if a Born again Christian, who later decided to convert to Islam, and they renounced Jesus as Lord, and confessed Allah as Lord, if they are still saved.

I say No.
He says yes.

What does the Bible say about whatever occurs in the future? Rom 8:38,39 - 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What does "things to come" mean? It means ANYTHING that may occur in the future. Since Paul did NOT give us any exclusions of what might occur in the future, even the silly example given about a believer who converts to Islam would be covered.

Is there any verse that specifically and clearly states that anyone who leaves the faith will lose their salvation? Of course not. If so, I would believe your view rather than the view that I hold.

If there is any mention of exclusions to what might occur in the future, that would or could separate us from the love of Christ, please share.

 

[JLB]

otoh, no one from the non-OSAS side has provided any evidence from Scripture that any of the warning passages are about loss of salvation. That continues to be just an opinion, and a faulty one at that.

if a Born again Christian, who later decided to convert to Islam, and they renounced Jesus as Lord, and confessed Allah as Lord, are they are still saved, according to your doctrine?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Is there any verse that specifically and clearly states that anyone who leaves the faith will lose their salvation? Of course not. If so, I would believe your view rather than the view that I hold.

Easy -

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

And again -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

EDITED to remove the snark.... reba


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible is very clear; if a person has put their faith/trust in Christ for eternal life, they HAVE it (Jn 5:24). And it is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). End of story.

No one has refuted that. If it can be refuted, I will repent of my view and reject it. Until then, there is no reason in Scripture to believe what is not taught.

If the word "gift" Charisma ONLY referred to eternal you might have a point.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.1 Corinthians 12:4

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The call and the gifts of grace to answer the call, is without repentance.

Since it refers to the grace of God and the gifts of the Spirit as well, you have to read the context.

Here's the context - God did not spare the natural branches...

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.


Otherwise you also will be cut off.


Probably the most easily refuted scripture in the OSAS doctrine.


JLB

 

[reba]

Posted to all members....

Follow the rules for the forums...
It is a shame that grown men will not adhere to what they have agreed to. The constant snarks, rude remarks, elevated egos ..they are so unchristian...
With a couple clicks any members access to a thread can/will be limited... We moderators try the most gentle corrections first... O how is wish we only needed a gentle reminder .

 

[Deborah13]

Revelation 14:9-12

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

JLB, I don't believe a believer did/will take the mark of the beast.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The ones who are marked are under a strong delusion, sent by God, because they did not believe the Gospel so that they could be saved.

 

[JLB]

The ones who are marked are under a strong delusion, sent by God, because they did not believe the Gospel so that they could be saved.

Deb,

I hear where you are coming from.

However, as you have witnessed for yourself, even on this Forum, there are those who simply refuse to believe, nor practice the Truth, yet they are those who claim to believe the Gospel.

Look closely at what the scripture says.

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

Deb,

We know the world, that is to say, those who reject the Gospel, are lost and will perish.

Why then would God need to send them strong delusion, as they are already lost.

Let me post the scripture from the Old Testament where
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 has its origin.

13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

God sent a false prophet that worked signs and wonders, to see if HIS PEOPLE would turn away from Him and serve other gods.

It will happen again in these last days.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

However, as you have witnessed for yourself, even on this Forum, there are those who simply refuse to believe, nor practice the Truth, yet they are those who claim to believe the Gospel.

Claimers are not believers in the truth.

We know the world, that is to say, those who reject the Gospel, are lost and will perish.
Why then would God need to send them strong delusion, as they are already lost.

Because they rejected the truth. So now it's too late. Those who God has sent the delusion to, will never see, they will believe the lie.

13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

God sent a false prophet that worked signs and wonders, to see if HIS PEOPLE would turn away from Him and serve other gods.

There is no delusion sent by God on this people in this scripture. Moses says don't listen to false prophets, the same thing that the apostles taught in the NT church about the false prophets running around then. God was not sending a delusion then either.
What is a delusion, a blinding to not be able to see the truth, but believe a lie.
The delusion is a judgement.
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So where do you see believers (the ones who believe the Gospel) having a delusion put on them, by God, so that they will believe a lie?

 

[JLB]

Claimers are not believers in the truth.

Because they rejected the truth. So now it's too late. Those who God has sent the delusion to, will never see, they will believe the lie.


There is no delusion sent by God on this people in this scripture. Moses says don't listen to false prophets, the same thing that the apostles taught in the NT church about the false prophets running around then. God was not sending a delusion then either.
What is a delusion, a blinding to not be able to see the truth, but believe a lie.
The delusion is a judgement.
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So where do you see believers (the ones who believe the Gospel) having a delusion put on them, by God, so that they will believe a lie?

Again, Deb, God doesn't need to send any delusion upon the unsaved, for they are already doomed to destruction.


1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,'
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

the sign or the wonder comes to pass... for the Lord your God is testing you.

Was this test from God, for His people, or the Satan's.


Likewise this warning from John, do you think it is for the people of God, or Satan's people.

Remember, the angel that announced this warning came after the angel that preached the gospel.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-11


Maybe you believe that no Christian will take the mark of the beast?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Claimers are not believers in the truth.

So in your mind, it is impossible for someone to believe the Gospel and get Baptized, and go to Church for awhile, then after awhile they turn away from God... and believe in "other gods?

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first... 2 Thessalonians 2:3


What do these believers fall away from?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"otoh, no one from the non-OSAS side has provided any evidence from Scripture that any of the warning passages are about loss of salvation. That continues to be just an opinion, and a faulty one at that."

if a Born again Christian, who later decided to convert to Islam, and they renounced Jesus as Lord, and confessed Allah as Lord, are they are still saved, according to your doctrine?

I already explained what Scripture says about this scenario: Rom 8:38,39 -
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did Paul include any exclusions listed for "things to come"? No. If turning from the faith would result in loss of salvation, this is the place where Paul would have HAD to add that exclusion from this list. But he didn't.

 

[Deborah13]

Again, Deb, God doesn't need to send any delusion upon the unsaved, for they are already doomed to destruction.

NASV
10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
You are saying the people in v10 are saved?

11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
What is the reason He sends the delusion?
What does the delusion cause to happen?

So you believe that God will send a delusion on believers so that they will believe what is false?

Please explain to me what you believe these scriptures say, by using the words in the verses. I would greatly appreciate that.

Likewise this warning from John, do you think it is for the people of God, or Satan's people.

A warning for those who do not believe the truth. They'd better get on board the Jesus gospel train or they will be lost forever.

 

[Deborah13]

So in your mind, it is impossible for someone to believe the Gospel and get Baptized, and go to Church for awhile, then after awhile they turn away from God... and believe in "other gods?

Nope, they have just joined the ones who do not believe the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Is there any verse that specifically and clearly states that anyone who leaves the faith will lose their salvation? Of course not. If so, I would believe your view rather than the view that I hold."

Easy -
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Not so easy. Where does this passage, or any other, indicate that believers or former believers will do this? Your view is just another assumption.

And again -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

How many times have we been over this? Too many. This is about loss of reward, not about not getting into the kingdom. Our inheritance is IN the kingdom:
Matt 5:12 "great is your REWARD IN heaven"
Matt 19:21 "treature IN heaven"
Matt 19:30 "rank IN heaven"
Matt 20:26-27 "whoever wants to be great IN the kingdom"
Mark 10:21 "treasure IN heaven"

A parallel passage to Gal 5:19-21 is Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance IN the kingdom of Christ and God.

So, the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "an inheritance IN the kingdom". It has nothing to do with getting to the kingdom.

 

[JLB]

Nope, they have just joined the ones who do not believe the truth.

They had indeed joined the unbelievers, because now they no longer believe.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"he Bible is very clear; if a person has put their faith/trust in Christ for eternal life, they HAVE it (Jn 5:24). And it is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). End of story.

No one has refuted that. If it can be refuted, I will repent of my view and reject it. Until then, there is no reason in Scripture to believe what is not taught."

If the word "gift" Charisma ONLY referred to eternal you might have a point.

I never said "gift" ONLY referred to eternal life. I did say (repeatedly) that eternal life is AMONG the gifts of God that are irrevocable. I've asked for any evidence that Paul didn't include eternal life as any gift that was not revocable. And guess what…there isn't any. So, even eternal life is irrevocable.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.1 Corinthians 12:4

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The call and the gifts of grace to answer the call, is without repentance.

Since it refers to the grace of God and the gifts of the Spirit as well, you have to read the context.

Here's the context - God did not spare the natural branches...

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Probably the most easily refuted scripture in the OSAS doctrine.

This has also been repeatedly refuted. The agricultural metaphor deals with production of the branches. And when a branch fails to produce for the farmer, the farmer removes the branch from the vine. The passage is about being useful TO God, not about getting or losing salvation. To be "discarded" by God doesn't mean loss of salvation as is being assumed. It means God won't use you in His service. For the Jews of Paul's day, this was eye opening. Recall how they viewed themselves; the chosen race of God. To be told they would be discarded by God was shocking.

Your view spiritualizes Rom 11:21-22, which twists the truth out of it.

 

[JLB]

Not so easy. Where does this passage, or any other, indicate that believers or former believers will do this? Your view is just another assumption.

How many times have we been over this? Too many. This is about loss of reward, not about not getting into the kingdom. Our inheritance is IN the kingdom:
Matt 5:12 "great is your REWARD IN heaven"
Matt 19:21 "treature IN heaven"
Matt 19:30 "rank IN heaven"
Matt 20:26-27 "whoever wants to be great IN the kingdom"
Mark 10:21 "treasure IN heaven"

A parallel passage to Gal 5:19-21 is Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance IN the kingdom of Christ and God.

So, the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "an inheritance IN the kingdom". It has nothing to do with getting to the kingdom.

The word says inherit the kingdom.

There is no doubt what this means at all, as Jesus makes it clear.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Come you blessed, inherit the kingdom...


Now for the others who do not inherit the kingdom.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41


Right hand - inherit the kingdom of God

Left hand - inherit the everlasting fires of hell.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

They had indeed joined the unbelievers, because now they no longer believe.JLB

This is just a major assumption. Please show where the Bible describes one who has believed as an unbeliever.

When the Bible speaks of an unbeliever, it always refers to those who have never believed.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"he Bible is very clear; if a person has put their faith/trust in Christ for eternal life, they HAVE it (Jn 5:24). And it is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). End of story.

No one has refuted that. If it can be refuted, I will repent of my view and reject it. Until then, there is no reason in Scripture to believe what is not taught."

I has been easily refuted.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:20-23

Does broken off mean they are no longer in covenant, because of unbelief, or is this just another verse talking about "losing rewards".

Read these words - if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in,...


Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Please explain what being broken off and cut off from the tree, of which is supported by the root.

The natural branches who were broken off because of unbelief, were they never believers, or were they believers who fell into unbelief?


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is just a major assumption. Please show where the Bible describes one who has believed as an unbeliever.

When the Bible speaks of an unbeliever, it always refers to those who have never believed.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:19-23

Because of unbelief they were broken off...Otherwise you also will be cut off.

They were in the "olive tree" which represents God's Covenant people.

Because they "fell into" unbelief means they were in the tree, because they believed, but the fell into unbelief, and were broken off by God.

Unbelievers have unbelief

Believers have belief.

Believers believe, that why they are called believers.

Simple.

Unbelief = Cut Off.

Of course, maybe you don't think the Olive Tree means they are/were in Covenant with God?


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12



JLB