The Five Points of Calvinism

[dianegcook]

And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
(Luk 14:19-20)
For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
(Luk 14:24)

Could it be everyone was designed to be in the Lord Jesus? Made for some purpose for God's use?

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
(Col 1:16)
and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
(Col 1:20)

Was anything made not to serve God?

Could it be that the many that were called were the ones that could hear, and not all those were worthy of choosing?

In that parable, I believe it means, Israel was chosen, thus, He called the Gentiles, whomever will.

But, also He blinded Israel, so salvation would come to the Gentiles.
Is it freewill to be blinded?

Was Satan created for destruction?

Isa.54:16

 

[Brother Mike]

To continue. The law of sin and death says if you do this, you will die. Sin leads to death. Jesus said, if you do this you shall live. Keep his commandments. So I posted his commandments. So you see the difference. It is night and day, life and death. Follow Jesus and you will live. Follow the law and you will die.

So let's not return to our vomit.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

What if someone has them and only keeps them for a little while?

 

[JLB]

To continue. The law of sin and death says if you do this, you will die. Sin leads to death. Jesus said, if you do this you shall live. Keep his commandments. So I posted his commandments. So you see the difference. It is night and day, life and death. Follow Jesus and you will live. Follow the law and you will die.

So let's not return to our vomit.

Brother, The law has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The law was added, until the Seed should come. That means it was always to be temporary.

The Seed has come, and abolished in His flesh, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

The enmity between Jew and Gentile was the law of Moses, the very thing that made a distinction between the two.

What is also just as true, is those walk according to the Spirit, fulfill the righteous requirement of the law.

The requirement of the law was to obey, all of it.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4


JLB

 

[JLB]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
(Joh 8:51)

What if someone has them and only keeps them for a little while?

But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Luke 8:21

 

[Brother Mike]

In that parable, I believe it means, Israel was chosen, thus, He called the Gentiles, whomever will.

But, also He blinded Israel, so salvation would come to the Gentiles.
Is it freewill to be blinded?

Was Satan created for destruction?

Isa.54:16

Well, Jesus ministry was to Israel. The Parable is calling out to all those that be of Abraham's seed.
Jesus only spoke in Parables when the masses gathered, Greeks outside of Israel included. Those of the Jews that knew the scriptures and had ears to hear followed him. At the end, Jesus had a very large Jewish following.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

If there is no difference, and God made all, then Every creature was made for a purpose.

Is it freewill to be blinded?

I was having a discussion About free will in another thread. It went far deeper than what is needed here.

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
(Mat 13:34-35)
Many Jews did understand.

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
(Joh 12:39-40)
The religious leaders though had their own issues.

Was Satan created for destruction?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;
(Jer 51:20)

Now doubt God created him, but was the original plan to make him evil and hurt many?

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Eze 28:15)

But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Luke 8:21

pretty much settles it.

 

[gr8grace3]

JLB said:
"Paul rightly teaches that no one is justified by the works of the law, since the law is not of faith.
James rightly teaches that a person is justified by obeying God's Voice, which is where faith comes from.
I just don't see how the difference in the two different "works" is not glaringly obvious.
James teaches us an important principle concerning the law of faith."
No one gets saved by obeying the "law of faith". If so, what verse tells us this? We know how people are saved; by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. That was Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

James was addressing saved Jews. He wasn't trying to convert them or save them. He was encouraging them to demonstrate their faith in the eyes of others. If one doesn't demonstrate their faith (live by faith), then their faith is useless (James 2:20 - argon: barren or useless) towards others. Which v.15 and 16 demonstrate well.

The justification mentioned by James in 2:24 was in reference to others, not to God. The principle is found in many other NT passages:
Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

All these verses support the point of James in ch 2 about being justified in the eyes of other people by our works.
Rom 12:17, 14:18 and 2 Cor 8:21 all say the same thing: do what is right in the SIGHT of the Lord and in the SIGHT of men. We are justified in the SIGHT of men when we live out or faith. But, those believers who behave as the example of James 2:15,16 will NOT be justified in the SIGHT of others. They will be viewed rightly as hypocrites.

2 Cor 5:12, 1 Tim 3:7, 1 Thess 4:12, and 1 Pet 2:12 stress the importance of our behavior/lifestyle/appearance before others.

And, 1 Jn 3:18 is directly related to James 2:15,16 by not showing love (demonstrating our faith) in deed and truth.

Please explain how any of these verses don't support my view.

Truth showed up again!

 

[childeye]

Now doubt God created him, but was the original plan to make him evil and hurt many?

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Eze 28:15)

The vanity that is inherent in creation is most likely circumstantial and unavoidable. Vanity began in Satan because he was the highest angel and the most gifted of God's creation. He had the most to take for granted, and this eventually became iniquity. The eagle should not look down upon the lowly dung beatle, and the dung beatle should not aspire to be the eagle, for God has made them perfect for their station and each serves the other accordingly. Vanity finds fault where there is no fault, hence wickedness always finds a fault in others. God will probably always be taken for granted which is why we ask, why does evil happen rather than why does good happen. Luke 7:33-34.

 

[JLB]

All these verses support the point of James in ch 2 about being justified in the eyes of other people by our works.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24


God is the one who justified Abraham.

It doesn't matter what others think about our obedience to God.

People can not justify us in the eyes of God.

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:26

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The vanity that is inherent in creation is most likely circumstantial and unavoidable. Vanity began in Satan because he was the highest angel and the most gifted of God's creation. He had the most to take for granted, and this eventually became iniquity. The eagle should not look down upon the lowly dung beatle, and the dung beatle should not aspire to be the eagle, for God has made them perfect for their station and each serves the other accordingly. Vanity finds fault where there is no fault, hence wickedness always finds a fault in others. God will probably always be taken for granted which is why we ask, why does evil happen rather than why does good happen.

far More complex than I would have worded it. Pretty good.

 

[childeye]

far More complex than I would have worded it. Pretty good.

How about we found fault in paradise?

 

[childeye]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24


God is the one who justified Abraham.

It doesn't matter what others think about our obedience to God.

People can not justify us in the eyes of God.

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:26

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18


JLB

Good post JLB. There's semantic confusion with the word works as applied to faith vs. works as applied to the law as pertains to righteousness, and you are clearing that up.

 

[MarkT]

Brother, The law has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The law was added, until the Seed should come. That means it was always to be temporary.

The Seed has come, and abolished in His flesh, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

The enmity between Jew and Gentile was the law of Moses, the very thing that made a distinction between the two.

What is also just as true, is those walk according to the Spirit, fulfill the righteous requirement of the law.

The requirement of the law was to obey, all of it.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4


JLB

Hebrews 8:13 says the law is ready to vanish. It doesn't say it has vanished. The law has not vanished, neither will it pass away, not until all is accomplished. Not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Mt. 5:18

The law required death for sin. That was 'the just requirement of the law' which Jesus accomplished.

What I meant to say is we are not justified by the law.

Sins can be forgiven by prayer.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 8:13 says the law is ready to vanish. It doesn't say it has vanished. The law has not vanished, neither will it pass away, not until all is accomplished. Not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Mt. 5:18

The law required death for sin. That was 'the just requirement of the law' which Jesus accomplished.

What I meant to say is we are not justified by the law.

Sins can be forgiven by prayer.

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the law?

He said He came to fulfill the law.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

until it's fulfilled.

The law was added til the seed should come. Galatians 3:1


13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

He, which is God Himself, has made it obsolete.

When God spoke through the mouth of Jeremiah, the words "I will make a New Covenant" the old became obsolete, and was ready to pass away. When the same Lord that spoke through the mouth of Jeremiah, also said "behold the new covenant in My blood" the old had vanished away.

The scripture also plainly says that the law of commandments contained in ordinances was abolished.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ephesians 2:14-15

I think we should take this discussion to PM, so as not to derail this thread.

Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

Good post JLB. There's semantic confusion with the word works as applied to faith vs. works as applied to the law as pertains to righteousness, and you are clearing that up.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok here are some scripture where believing is not mentioned. That is why we need the whole counsel of God.

Why must you always try to diminish the command to believe?

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

Actually, the phrase "sanctified by FAITH in Me" refutes your claim.

This scripture teaches the way to receive the forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance among the sanctified, is by turning from darkness to light, turning from the power of Satan to God.

No, it is "by FAITH in Me" that is the key here. We receive forgiveness of sins BY FAITH, which is exactly what Acts 10:43 SAYS.
"3“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

and again
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

And what exactly did Cornelius and friends DO? Check out the verse just before the one you've cited:
Acts 11:17 - 7“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Once again, your own verse is about believing in the Lord Jesus.

and again
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

OK, 1 out of your 3 verses don't mention believing. So what? [This isn't a competition. ToS 2.4]

 

[FreeGrace]

Strong's Number: 4100 - Pisteuo
Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

Your claim is that pisteuo means to obey. Even in the "evidence" that you've presented, there is NO MENTION of obedience. I have no idea why you've highlighted "saving faith in red. Yes, believing is doing something, but that doesn't equate to believing being obedience.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

Proving what, exactly?

Here is how disobedience and unbelief are interchanged.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
Unbelief is disobedience.

Sure, if you compare 2 translations. I've already explained the MEANING of 2 Greek words: pistis and pietho. Did you research them for yourself? Pistis is NOT pietho. They are DIFFERENT words. Only pietho means to obey.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"All these verses support the point of James in ch 2 about being justified in the eyes of other people by our works."

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24
God is the one who justified Abraham.
It doesn't matter what others think about our obedience to God.
People can not justify us in the eyes of God.
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:26
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18
JLB

I provided many verses throughout the NT that affirm the fact that James was speaking about being justified in the eyes of others. Ignore those verses or whatever. Makes no difference. Truth is truth.

If James was speaking about being justified in the eyes of God in James 2:24, then he was directly contradicting all of Scripture. And that's what your theology does.

 

[JLB]

Why must you always try to diminish the command to believe?

I'm actually wanting to bring out the fullness of the word believe as the Godhead intends us to understand and apply to our lives.

In the Garden, the sin that brought death to all mankind was disobedience.

Adam chose to believe Satan over God.

Adam chose to obey Satan rather than God.

The way we know that Adam chose to believe Satan, was He obeyed Satan.

You might say;

Wrong!!
Satan never spoke to Adam.

Here is the first principle of understanding believe/obey.

When you believe the person that Satan is empowering to deceive you into disobeying God, then you are obeying/believing Satan rather than God.

Adam simply chose not to believe God, therefore he disobeyed God, and ate of the tree.

That is why the bible uses disobedience and unbelief interchangeably.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Disobedience is Unbelief.

Adam did not believe God, therefore he disobeyed Him.

Adam believed what Satan said, therefore he obeyed what Satan said.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I provided many verses throughout the NT that affirm the fact that James was speaking about being justified in the eyes of others. Ignore those verses or whatever. Makes no difference. Truth is truth.

I provided the truth that God is the one that justifies, not people.

Was Jesus justified in the eyes of the Jews?

Makes no sense that others need to approve of whom God Justifes.

[ToS 2.4]


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your claim is that pisteuo means to obey. Even in the "evidence" that you've presented, there is NO MENTION of obedience. I have no idea why you've highlighted "saving faith in red. Yes, believing is doing something, but that doesn't equate to believing being obedience.

Yes the doing is obeying the One whom faith comes from.

That's why the scripture says....

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God.
Romans 8:14

JLB