The Five Points of Calvinism

[Brother Mike]

Is it easier to heal a sickness or to forgive sin?
So who has the stronger faith the one who believes their sins are forgiven or the one who believes for a physical healing in this world?

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
(Col 2:6-7)

which one is the greater miracle. Changing temporal flesh, or changing a eternal spirit? The Same faith it took to receive Jesus, is the same faith you receive anything else.

Well, it seems to me that it takes a lot of faith in the power of God to believe He has the power to keep you and not lose you. To believe that if you stray He will find you and carry you back to the flock.

A stray sheep will be glad to get back to the flock, not noticing the patches of good grass it was following led it away, and it no longer could see the rest of the sheep.

A sheep that left with the wolf saying there is profit and better things than grass, will not want to be carried back to that it did not esteem as worthy.

So I don't get arrogant towards those who do believe in OSAS.

If a person believes one thing that is wrong, then they must also believe something else, just as wrong, yet they will claim they don't. It's called confusion.

If one says it's wrong to lie, yet tell their 4 year old that the tooth fairy will leave money under the pillow, then they don't really believe that lying is wrong.

 

[JLB]

Well, it seems to me that it takes a lot of faith in the power of God to believe He has the power to keep you and not lose you. To believe that if you stray He will find you and carry you back to the flock.

I totally believe He will come after those who stray.

I also believe, that when the heart becomes hardened, it is possible to turn away in a state of unbelief.

The scripture warns us of the deceitfulness of sin.

Those who practice, as a lifestyle, the gratifying of the sinful desires of the flesh, can become overcome by that sin.

Today, we call it addiction.

An addiction forms from a habit, a lifestyle choice to obey the sinful passions of the flesh, whereby these become our master that we obey.

James teaches us the pattern -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15

When sin has time to grow and mature within the believer, who has become entangled again, it becomes full grown... and brings forth death.

This speaks of a sinful lifestyle that continues, as one who practices...

Look at what James says -

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

We choose of our freewill to become God's enemy!

Then we become hardened...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13

again

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


These are just a few of the clear warnings in the Bible about sin, and the choices we make, to disobey the Holy Command of the Gospel to repent.


The Lord gives us time to repent, He is patient and kind and loving, longsuffering.

He loves us and will never stop loving us... never the less, these warning exist in the scriptures.


Yet, those that have been deceived into believing the lie, and even teach others, that it is impossible for us to lose our precious salvation...impossible to die and go to hell as a born again Christian, no matter what we do and how long we do it, because God is somehow obligated to save us no matter what.

And all the scriptures that warn us... well those don't mean we will lose our salvation... they say.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:19-21


it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness...



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Of course. Because that is the Biblical position. When God saves someone, there are no "strings attached", no warnings of losing that salvation. Because salvation is by grace. Those who understand what grace is don't have any problem with how the child of God may act later on. I don't mean that turning back to a sinful lifestyle isn't a problem, both for the one who turns back and the believer who observes it. For the one who does turn back to sin, the problem will be God's discipline during their lifetime, up to and including removal from this earth and loss of eternal reward. They will NOT reign with Christ, as 2 Tim 2:12 clearly indicates. Does reigning with Christ sound like something that would be quite nice for eternity? It sure does. Does being disciplined by God during this lifetime sound like something that would be quite unpleasant? It sure does.

God has given His children both positive and negative motivation for serving Him.

otoh, no one from the non-OSAS side has provided any evidence from Scripture that any of the warning passages are about loss of salvation. That continues to be just an opinion, and a faulty one at that.


Interesting that the word 'believes' was in quotes. As if to suggest that they really haven't believed, or something like that.

The Bible is very clear; if a person has put their faith/trust in Christ for eternal life, they HAVE it (Jn 5:24). And it is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). End of story.

No one has refuted that. If it can be refuted, I will repent of my view and reject it. Until then, there is no reason in Scripture to believe what is not taught.

Jn. 5:24 says, 'he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.'

So it doesn't say if a person has put their faith and trust in Christ, because that could mean anything. There are all kinds of false teachers who are using his name, and who claim to know him, and by them many are deceived.

Jesus said, "He who hears my word". It certainly is a gift.

He said all who honour the Son, honour the Father. John 5:23-24 To honour the Son is to keep his commandments.

And Ro. 6:23 is talking about the Jews who will come to believe and be saved.

Mt. 8:12

Mt. 7:21-27

Even believers, if they do not do the will of the Father, will be cast out.

And those who fall into unbelief, who afterwards do what is evil, they will be resurrected to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:29

 

[Deborah13]

A stray sheep will be glad to get back to the flock, not noticing the patches of good grass it was following led it away, and it no longer could see the rest of the sheep.

Exactly. So the people who believe the Lord will never leave them without a sheppard are some of the most grateful for what the Lord has done for them. Like little children who know that no matter how much they misbehave, their father still loves them and if there is anyway that he can stop them from hurting themselves, he would, even give his life for them.
There is no way they could possibly repay him for that kind of love and they love him in return, so much so that they want to please him and their lives prove it.

How would you live if you believed you couldn't lose your salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

Who's the you? Not all people who believe OSAS are Calvinists or agree with the Calvinist doctrines.

He was replying to my comments:
"Exactly! Calvinism gives those in hell an excuse for being there: "I wasn't chosen by God to go to heaven. And those that He did choose are just as much a sinner as I am. So it's not my fault for being here. I wasn't chosen. If I had been, I wouldn't be here."

So I assume his comments were directed at me.

 

[JLB]

Exactly. So the people who believe the Lord will never leave them without a sheppard are some of the most grateful for what the Lord has done for them. Like little children who know that no matter how much they misbehave, their father still loves them and if there is anyway that he can stop them from hurting themselves, he would, even give his life for them.
There is no way they could possibly repay him for that kind of love and they love him in return, so much so that they want to please him and their lives prove it.

How would you live if you believed you couldn't lose your salvation?

Thanks a great thought, Deb.

I agree, God loves us very much.

However, the truth of the warnings in the scripture can not be changed based on how we feel.

It is on His terms.

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You can't believe that you have free will, until suddenly you get saved, then not have any Free will to walk away from Jesus. There is no such thing as that.

A person Has free will or they don't have free will. People that believe in OSAS do not believe in Free will. Just ask them who decides if you stay sick or not. Their will to have faith and believe, or God's will.

Sounds rather "authoritarian" for one who really cannot know what others think. I am one of those Deb 13 noted; I am not a Calvinist and I am convinced of OSAS, and I am just as convinced that God created mankind with a free will.

You will find out real quick they don't really believe what they say they do.

And just how does one find this out? Hey, I know. Try me on for size.

 

[FreeGrace]

I totally believe He will come after those who stray.
I also believe, that when the heart becomes hardened, it is possible to turn away in a state of unbelief.
The scripture warns us of the deceitfulness of sin.
Those who practice, as a lifestyle, the gratifying of the sinful desires of the flesh, can become overcome by that sin.
Today, we call it addiction.
An addiction forms from a habit, a lifestyle choice to obey the sinful passions of the flesh, whereby these become our master that we obey.
James teaches us the pattern -
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15
When sin has time to grow and mature within the believer, who has become entangled again, it becomes full grown... and brings forth death.
This speaks of a sinful lifestyle that continues, as one who practices...
Look at what James says -
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4
We choose of our freewill to become God's enemy!
Then we become hardened...
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13
again
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16
and again
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
These are just a few of the clear warnings in the Bible about sin, and the choices we make, to disobey the Holy Command of the Gospel to repent.
The Lord gives us time to repent, He is patient and kind and loving, longsuffering.
He loves us and will never stop loving us... never the less, these warning exist in the scriptures.
Yet, those that have been deceived into believing the lie, and even teach others, that it is impossible for us to lose our precious salvation...impossible to die and go to hell as a born again Christian, no matter what we do and how long we do it, because God is somehow obligated to save us no matter what.
And all the scriptures that warn us... well those don't mean we will lose our salvation... they say.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:19-21
it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness...
JLB

There still has not been a shred of evidence that Paul had excluded eternal life from the gifts that he said were irrevocable. Since it was Paul who decided what he alone meant by 'gifts' in the first place.

So, if Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life in the gifts that are irrevocable, where is that plain language of evidence found within the book to the Romans? One is limited to that book only because of a little issue called context. Only in Romans did Paul specifically (clear language) define what he meant by 'gifts'. Before he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So we HAVE TO know what Paul defined as gifts. Not me, not you, not anyone else. Only the author.

So, please direct my attention to any passage in the book of Romans where Paul used clear language to tell us that eternal life, though a gift, was not one of the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jn. 5:24 says, 'he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.'

So it doesn't say if a person has put their faith and trust in Christ, because that could mean anything.

I think most reasonable people would agree that "believes" and "put their faith and truth" mean the same thing. So let's not get hung up on semantics.

Jesus said, "He who hears my word". It certainly is a gift.

Where does the Bible describe hearing Jesus' word as a gift?

And Ro. 6:23 is talking about the Jews who will come to believe and be saved.

Actually, it's about anyone who believes in Christ. That's where eternal life is. And eternal life is a gift of God. That is irrevocable.

Even believers, if they do not do the will of the Father, will be cast out.

Cast out of what, exactly? Their homes? Heaven? What?

And those who fall into unbelief, who afterwards do what is evil, they will be resurrected to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:29

So Jesus didn't die for all sin, huh?

Jn 5:29 - and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So one gets eternal life by doing "good deeds", huh?

And, one gets judgment for committing "evil deeds", huh?

That would be a salvation by works system. Not at all different than what the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed.

I'll have none of that, thank you.

The Bible is clear: we are saved by grace through faith. Not by works (good deeds), lest any man should boast.

I cannot imagine how it could be said any more clear than that. So I won't even try. Paul nailed it.

 

[JLB]

There still has not been a shred of evidence that Paul had excluded eternal life from the gifts that he said were irrevocable. Since it was Paul who decided what he alone meant by 'gifts' in the first place.

So, if Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life in the gifts that are irrevocable, where is that plain language of evidence found within the book to the Romans? One is limited to that book only because of a little issue called context. Only in Romans did Paul specifically (clear language) define what he meant by 'gifts'. Before he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So we HAVE TO know what Paul defined as gifts. Not me, not you, not anyone else. Only the author.

So, please direct my attention to any passage in the book of Romans where Paul used clear language to tell us that eternal life, though a gift, was not one of the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

I have many times.

with many scriptures, while easily refuting your misunderstanding of Romans 11:29


JLB

 

[JLB]

I think most reasonable people would agree that "believes" and "put their faith and truth" mean the same thing. So let's not get hung up on semantics.


Where does the Bible describe hearing Jesus' word as a gift?


Actually, it's about anyone who believes in Christ. That's where eternal life is. And eternal life is a gift of God. That is irrevocable.


Cast out of what, exactly? Their homes? Heaven? What?


So Jesus didn't die for all sin, huh?

Jn 5:29 - and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So one gets eternal life by doing "good deeds", huh?

And, one gets judgment for committing "evil deeds", huh?

That would be a salvation by works system. Not at all different than what the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed.

I'll have none of that, thank you.

The Bible is clear: we are saved by grace through faith. Not by works (good deeds), lest any man should boast.

I cannot imagine how it could be said any more clear than that. So I won't even try. Paul nailed it.

The scripture warns us of the deceitfulness of sin.

Those who practice, as a lifestyle, the gratifying of the sinful desires of the flesh, can become overcome by that sin.

Today, we call it addiction.

An addiction forms from a habit, a lifestyle choice to obey the sinful passions of the flesh, whereby these become our master that we obey.

James teaches us the pattern -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived,it gives birth to sin;and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15

When sin has time to grow and mature within the believer, who has become entangled again, it becomes full grown... and brings forth death.

This speaks of a sinful lifestyle that continues, as one who practices...

Look at what James says -

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

We choose of our freewill to become God's enemy!

Then we become hardened...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13

again

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


These are just a few of the clear warnings in the Bible about sin, and the choices we make, to disobey the Holy Command of the Gospel to repent.


The Lord gives us time to repent, He is patient and kind and loving, longsuffering.

He loves us and will never stop loving us... never the less, these warning exist in the scriptures.


Yet, those that have been deceived into believing the lie, and even teach others, that it is impossible for us to lose our precious salvation...impossible to die and go to hell as a born again Christian, no matter what we do and how long we do it, because God is somehow obligated to save us no matter what.

And all the scriptures that warn us... well those don't mean we will lose our salvation...they say.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:19-21


it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness...


JLB

 

[MarkT]

I think most reasonable people would agree that "believes" and "put their faith and truth" mean the same thing. So let's not get hung up on semantics.

Jesus said, 'he who hears my words'. He is pretty specific about who has passed from death to life. He said he who honours the Son honours the Father. John 5:22-23 So he who honours the Son has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Where does the Bible describe hearing Jesus' word as a gift?

The Bible says the words of a book will open the eyes of the blind.

In that day the deaf shall hear
the words of a book,
and out of their gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind shall see. Isa. 29:18

So If God opens our ears to hear and to see, I would call it a gift.

Actually, it's about anyone who believes in Christ. That's where eternal life is. And eternal life is a gift of God. That is irrevocable.

My mistake.

When Paul says 'the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable' Ro. 11:29, he is referring to the Jews who will be saved. Ro. 11:4-5

Cast out of what, exactly? Their homes? Heaven? What?

Out of the kingdom.

So Jesus didn't die for all sin, huh?

Jn 5:29 - and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So one gets eternal life by doing "good deeds", huh?

And, one gets judgment for committing "evil deeds", huh?

That would be a salvation by works system. Not at all different than what the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed.

I'll have none of that, thank you.

The Bible is clear: we are saved by grace through faith. Not by works (good deeds), lest any man should boast.

I cannot imagine how it could be said any more clear than that. So I won't even try. Paul nailed it.

No. I'm not saying good deeds ... unless you count love your neighbour as yourself a good deed. Or is following Jesus a good deed? How about love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind? Is that a good deed?

Keep his commandments. What is do unto others? Is that a works theology? I already said we are not under the law but under grace. We are now entirely dependent on God's mercy and his forgiveness, so that as we do unto others so it will be done to us. If we judge another, we will be condemned because we do the same thing. If we don't forgive men their trespasses, God won't forgive our trespasses.

What saves us from the wrath of God? Love and mercy and forgiveness; this is what God wants.

 

[Malachi]

Please go to the next letter. Thanks JLB

The next letter "U" stands for Unconditional Election. Theopedia defines it thus:

In Christian theology, election refers to God's choosing of individuals or peoples to be the objects of his grace or to otherwise fulfill his purposes. Most often God's election is associated with his choice of individuals unto salvation. The Calvinist view of election (also known as unconditional election) teaches that in eternity God chose some individuals from the mass of fallen humanity unto salvation without regard to any merit or foreseen faith in them, but solely based on His sovereign intentions.

What this means -- in essence -- is that God chooses some sinners for salvation and chooses others for damnation. Once again, this totally violates the true teaching of Scripture that (1) God will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth and (2) God is not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. That is why God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent.

 

[Brother Mike]

Sounds rather "authoritarian" for one who really cannot know what others think. I am one of those Deb 13 noted; I am not a Calvinist and I am convinced of OSAS, and I am just as convinced that God created mankind with a free will.

No such thing Free Grace. You believe once man is saved they can not resist God's mighty magical power irresistible Grace to walk away forever from the Lord Jesus Christ. That is Calvinism.

Despite you think you believe in Free Will, You believe God knows the end from the Beginning.

See, Election God forms the bowling ball, and goes down the hallway smashes each pot.
God's Foreknowledge. is God doing the precise calculations, able to take a lump of dirt in his hand and mesaure the balance out for planets, then forming the Ball, and rolling it, Just knowing each pot will be hit and broken.

It's still Election.

I am trying to show you something FreeGrace. Freewill means a fully saved man can walk away. There is no such thing As God's foreknowledge, God is the one that made and rolled the Ball. So it would have to be, what God declared, and it would have to be, man has complete free will in a way.

Man still has to pick which yoke he wears though, which is not fully free will regardless.

Just give it some thought for me, please. I Agree with JLB most all the way, but I also believe we have an advocate who covers all things. I don't fully take his stance on the hardness of doing well, though we should strive to do so.


Be blessed.

 

[Obadiah]

OK, from here on out on this thread everyone will be required to follow the guidelines of this forum. Read them here, in detail, and consider this a warning to follow them. In particular note that this forum is for theological debate, not arguing and bickering over non-supported opinions, so any post with opposing comments or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies. This also means it is not acceptable to post 1 verse and say one sentence about it, then write a 1000 word essay about a different point without backing it with scripture. You also can not post something referring to a scripture you or another member posted in a previous post unless you re-state which scripture you are referring to. This can be done as simply as quoting the post or simply typing the chapter and verse reference. It's not hard to do. Please understand these are rules that will be enforced and this can result in infraction points which will result in automatic 30 day suspensions if you accumulate 3 points. PLEASE don't let something as simple as this affect your ability to post in CF.NET! If your comment can not be made to fit within the guidelines, perhaps it's not an appropriate comment for this particular forum.

 

[JLB]

The next letter "U" stands for Unconditional Election. Theopedia defines it thus:


What this means -- in essence -- is that God chooses some sinners for salvation and chooses others for damnation. Once again, this totally violates the true teaching of Scripture that (1) God will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth and (2) God is not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. That is why God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent.

Ok.

So rather than; for God so loved the world... John 3:16

In Calvinism, it would be; for God so loved the predestined, elect ones...




JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't fully take his stance on the hardness of doing well, though we should strive to do so.

Don't tell me, you think I'm pushing a works Gospel, too?

The obedience of faith, means just that.

Obey the Gospel.

Repent is the command of the Gospel of the kingdom.

Maybe we can discuss the idea of repent, repentance and turning away and departing.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Remember the principle that James teaches.

Faith, all by itself, without the work of obedience, is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

(Post removed for violation of A&T guidelines requiring scripture references as well as for refusing a moderator's requests. Obadiah.)

 

[MarkT]

(Post removed for violation of A&T guidelines requiring scripture with references. Obadiah.)

 

[Brother Mike]

(Post removed for violation of A&T guidelines requiring scripture references as well as for refusing a moderator's requests. Obadiah.)