The Five Points of Calvinism

[Doulos Iesou]

But then you turn right around and say it’s not consequential that people who believe will receive eternal life. Weird and frankly, two quite contradictory statements.

I said that a little strangely, basically I am noting that a person might not have eternal life in the future, as it's experience is contingent on faith and unity with Christ.

I think v23 is Jesus praying to The Father that The Father would grant to those who believe through the close disciples' word Eternal Life.

Why do you think it is through the close disciples, and no where is their word's noted. Rather we have a prayer for the unity of believers that is for the purpose of bringing more people to faith.

Huh? People who in the future are already believers? That’s weird also. I think my summary is much more understandable. But then again, that’s why it’s my summary. I understand it better than yours and mine fits the text more directly.

I gave my summary in an earlier post, and I was making a clarifying point. I just don't think it is consequential to think that a person who is already a believer would then receive eternal life, as that is consistently made. Though there are distinctions about believers having it in the present, and yet believers entering into it as per Matthew 25:46 and the statement about receiving eternal life in the age to come in Luke 18:30.

Okay, that’s your opinion. I have a higher opinion of Jesus' and The Father's desires, evidently, than to think it doesn't denote something that will in fact take place. That would be for another thread, however.

It is drawn from the subjunctive mood of the word rendered "might know," and isn't just my opinion, but rather analysis of Jesus' own words.

My point was/is specifically that Jesus prayed for the quantitative meaning of Eternal Life in v23 for future people (not just the 'close disciples'). If you think that asserts OSAS principles, that's on you. I would agree, however.
In order to assert anti-OSAS you have to argue that Eternal Life is not eternal (as you seem to above) and that Jesus’ prayer in v23 is merely His desire for the future (as you seem to above).

No I only have to note that eternal life is conditional on continued belief in Christ, as per John 5:24. Also, that eternal life isn't something that is just possessed in the present, but is also entered in to, in the future as per Luke 18:30.

All you’ve done, really, is confirm that you don’t think Eternal Life is eternal

This is statement misrepresents my position, in that I don't think that aionios necessitates that it means "everlasting," or "forever." I think this word has a diverse and complicated Semantic Range, and therefore base my position on the usage of the word, which you even said you agreed with.

nor do you think Jesus’ prayer in v23 is more than an "expressed desire" on His part. That is that the creator and the sustainer of the universe has merely 'expressed desire' in v23.

I think there is power in prayer, but I don't think it invalidates human will with regards to disunity and unbelief. It is God's desire for peace and unity in the church, but often there is disunity and conflict. Does that mean that God is impotent or apathetic? No, to me it demonstrates the complexity of God's sovereign will and desires and human responsibility and freedom. That God who would desire that all men would be saved, would also ordain a universe in which not all men are saved. Hence, we are discussing issues of Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Me, too.

I would like to see each individual doctrine of TULIP and Calvin's doctrine discussed in an organized way.

I can start a thread particular to a certain aspect of the TULIP.

Which one would you like to see discussed the most, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement or Irresistible Grace. (I wouldn't want to do Perseverance of the Saints, as there are too many OSAS threads on this forum and isn't unique to Calvinism)

 

[Deborah13]

I can start a thread particular to a certain aspect of the TULIP.

Which one would you like to see discussed the most, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement or Irresistible Grace. (I wouldn't want to do Perseverance of the Saints, as there are too many OSAS threads on this forum and isn't unique to Calvinism)

When I studied it I found that the doctrines are build one upon the other, so if we started from the beginning with Total Depravity and continued step by step from there I think it would be helpful.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When I studied it I found that the doctrines are build one upon the other, so if we started from the beginning with Total Depravity and continued step by step from there I think it would be helpful.

Somewhat, though I have heard it presented in a different order as it was with John Piper's lengthy examination of the 5 points.

Total Depravity is a good place to start though, I will create a thread about this sometime soon.

 

[Deborah13]

Somewhat, though I have heard it presented in a different order as it was with John Piper's lengthy examination of the 5 points.

Total Depravity is a good place to start though, I will create a thread about this sometime soon.

Ok, thanks.

 

[JLB]

Calvinist doctrine says God's grace is irresistible and that if one is saved they Will perservere. They will not ever not believe. Therefore, they will never again be unbelievers.

I guess Calvinist's didn't read the Parable of the Sower.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These in this group, received the message of the kingdom with joy, as they believed for a while... then they fell away.

The believed for a while and were saved for a while, then they no longer believed.

These no longer believed, as they became unbelievers or ex believers as some would say.

The promise of Jesus Christ is for those who believe, not for those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:14-19


JLB

 

[chessman]

It seems that you and I are using the word "quantitative" differently, in that I am using it in regards to aionios' temporal elements, i.e. duration of time.

The reason it seems like we are talking past each other and/or using the word differently is not because neither of us understand what the word means. It's because you started off applying it to the entire verse to now just the word itself.
Here's your original mention:

Please substantiate that the belief that the Father sent Jesus [v3] is integral to "eternal life," remember we're not talking about what must be believed to have eternal life, but the qualitative meaning that is eternal life, fellowship and union with the Father and Son.

You've more recently, however, started talking about a qualitative meaning to the word itself (eternal), not so much how it's used in the verse. Which is fine too. As the word itself has a qualitative and quantitaive meaning, just as the verse does. But my point is the discussion was originally about the contents of Eternal Life given in v3. Which certainly has both qualities.

Why do you think it is through the close disciples, and no where is their word's noted.

Umm, this is a point we have clarified twice before. Now a third time:

I get it from the prayer where Jesus' transition begins:

John 17:20 (LEB) “And I do not ask on behalf of these only[close disciples], but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word[the close disciples' word]​

You said you agreed to this observation:

That is correct, that the prayer is now for those who will believe through their word.

 

[chessman]

It is drawn from the subjunctive mood of the word rendered "might know," and isn't just my opinion, but rather analysis of Jesus' own words.

Do you think the 'close disciples' will be with Jesus in the New Heaven/Earth?

I think this word has a diverse and complicated Semantic Range, and therefore base my position on the usage of the word, which you even said you agreed with.

Let's be clear and accurate here. I said I agreed with you that the phrase Eternal Life could best be understood as "life that comes from God and is with God".

You said: I have examined the usage of the phrase, and therefore come to the conclusion that it basically means, life that comes from God and is with God​

I said: I have examined the usages of aiōnios too and I agree with you so far.​

That's a far cry from me agreeing with you that the phrase aionios life doesn't necessitate "everlasting" life. I suppose (as I pointed out) it depends on your view of who/what God is and what quality of life comes from Him. Whether He's everlasting or not, that is. And thus what quality/quantity life He shares with John 17:3 type believers.

 

[JLB]

Keep in mind that the act of believing doesn't help God in saving those who believe. The saving is completely on God's part. Man has nothing to do with his salvation, any more than a drowning man helps the life guard who drags his sorry and soggy rear out of the water.

The point is that God saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly. In fact, the verse says that God is pleased to do so.

It's God's will that all men are saved.

However, only those who believe will be saved.

Believing is what transfers what God desires to give to the lost.

Without believing there is no salvation.

Our faith is the vehicle by which that what God has give, is transferred to the one in need of what God has.

But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:22

and again -

Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." Luke 7:50

and again -

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10

I agree. Just as the Greek word “Christ” carries the weight of Scripture and must be understood in it’s fullness as well. A shallow observation of John 17:3’s “Christ” yields a falsehood of belief in what Eternal Life is.

Everything that Christ is won't help you one single bit, unless you believe.

Eternal life belongs to God, and those who choose to believe.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Unless you believe, and show that you believe by doing the work of confessing Jesus as Lord, then you will not be saved.

Faith without works is dead.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

jBird. Bravo, Bravo. Other than Calvin's "Institues of the Christian Religion" and other books of various authors defending Calvins doctrines, you have presented the finest, easy to understand thesis on Calvinism.

I have been a student and believer in Calvin's doctrine for years. So I applaud your fine work of research and display of Calvins heart to reach folk who were caught up in doctrinal error. Thank you so very much.

I would like your permission to copy your thesis as I continue to defend the brilliant theology of John Calvin.

Chopper did you really find that presentation sound?

 

[Butch5]

Me, too.

I would like to see each individual doctrine of TULIP and Calvin's doctrine discussed in an organized way.

I thought about addressing some of the points in the presentation but didn't think it would be fair now since Jbird has left. I do believe that he had the majority of the Scriptures out of context.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper did you really find that presentation sound?

Hi Butch. Yes I did find each point and jBird's interpretation absolutely correct. You see, I actually went slow and studied all he was posting. As I said, I am a student of Calvin's theology. I have a few books written by others. Some try and counter Calvin but come up short, IMO.

You ask, "did I find his presentation sound?" Yes, sound in that it displays Calvins thoughts, not others. As I have posted before, my theology goes a little further than jBird's, in that I bring in the "General Call of the Gospel" which jBird does not. You see, Scripture speaks of people who have to "keep" their faith. Calvinism teaches that the Elect can't loose their Salvation, so who are these who can loose? That's where the general call comes in.

 

[JLB]

I thought about addressing some of the points in the presentation but didn't think it would be fair now since Jbird has left. I do believe that he had the majority of the Scriptures out of context.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

God chose us in Christ... before the foundation of the world.
He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

God chose us in Christ... before the foundation of the world.
He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him.


JLB

Many believe that JLB, but that is not Calvinism. God chose before the foundations of the earth, and because of God's choice, they were saved, not that of foreknowledge. IMO your view would show a weak God. Please understand that I don't mean any disrespect. You are a good friend.

 

[FreeGrace]

I guess Calvinist's didn't read the Parable of the Sower.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These in this group, received the message of the kingdom with joy, as they believed for a while... then they fell away.

The believed for a while and were saved for a while, then they no longer believed.

This assumption continues to be faulty. They believed for a while, and then fell away from their faith, not their salvation.

Your view still hasn't been proven from Scripture. It's only an opinion.

These no longer believed, as they became unbelievers or ex believers as some would say.

But since eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29), they are still saved.

The promise of Jesus Christ is for those who believe, not for those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving.

This opinion cannot be substantiated from Scripture.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:14-19JLB

To be a partaker of Christ does not mean to become saved. It means to be a partner. Again, eternal life isn't revocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's God's will that all men are saved.

However, only those who believe will be saved.

Again, your opinion cannot be substantiated from Scripture. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God, according to Rom 6:23 with 11:29.

Believing is what transfers what God desires to give to the lost.

This sentence doesn't make sense.

Without believing there is no salvation.

I agree. But what you keep missing is that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life, which is an irrevocable gift.

Our faith is the vehicle by which that what God has give, is transferred to the one in need of what God has.

And that gift is irrevocable.

Everything that Christ is won't help you one single bit, unless you believe.

Eternal life belongs to God, and those who choose to believe.
Agreed.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Agreed.

Unless you believe, and show that you believe by doing the work of confessing Jesus as Lord, then you will not be saved.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is an admission of what one believes. And one is saved by believing.

Faith without works is dead.
JLB

The word can be used both literally and figuratively. In James 2, the word is used in the sense of being of no use to those for whom believers are to demonstrate their faith.

Can you disprove this?

 

[FreeGrace]

Many believe that JLB, but that is not Calvinism. God chose before the foundations of the earth, and because of God's choice, they were saved, not that of foreknowledge.

But what does Eph 1:4 really say? It says that "God chose US". OK. Who are the "us" in v.4? Paul defines the "us" in v.19 as believers. So 1:4 says that God chose believers. And what did He choose believers FOR? "to be holy and blameless". This is commanded throughout the NT. There is no support for the idea that Eph 1:4 (or any other passage) teaches that God chooses who will believe, which seems to be your view.

Second, the Bible DOES say that we are chosen because of God's foreknowledge:
1 Pet 1:1-2
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus,Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Please note the bolded words. God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

 

[JLB]

Again, your opinion cannot be substantiated from Scripture. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God, according to Rom 6:23 with 11:29.

That's not what the scripture says -

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The everlasting life is conditional upon believing.

And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God, according to Rom 6:23 with 11:29.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ...

It does not say this gift is irrevocable.

...you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

The end result of a fruitful life of holiness is everlasting life.

Just as Peter says -

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.1 Peter 1:9

For now we have faith in Christ for the salvation of our souls, and the end being eternal life.

Trying to build a doctrine off of one scripture, or one scripture and another taken out of context is not a sound way of building upon a sure foundation.

There are many scriptures in the new Testament the teach us the fullness of truth through the whole counsel of God.

Other verses in Romans 6 that exhort us about these things -

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Paul tells us that presenting ourselves to obey sin leads to death...for the wages of sin is death!



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Many believe that JLB, but that is not Calvinism. God chose before the foundations of the earth, and because of God's choice, they were saved, not that of foreknowledge. IMO your view would show a weak God. Please understand that I don't mean any disrespect. You are a good friend.

How does it show a weak God if God wants people to choose Him?

King Jesus walks into an orphanage and chooses a few children to be His, they have no choice but to go with Him. verses
King Jesus walks into an orphanage and says all of you who want to be my children can come with Me.
Which King Jesus is stronger, more confident, more merciful, more full of grace?

To me a God who must force children to come to Him, is a God who is not confident enough to know that someone would want to choose Him because of who He is and what He has done to show the world His merciful nature. Because of the Gospel, glad tidings.
Did God force Abraham to follow Him? Why is God a jealous God?

I don't mean any disrespect, either.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Many believe that JLB, but that is not Calvinism. God chose before the foundations of the earth, and because of God's choice, they were saved, not that of foreknowledge. IMO your view would show a weak God. Please understand that I don't mean any disrespect. You are a good friend.

God is certainly not a weak God, and I definitely do not think that Calvinism is the only one who promotes a powerful God.

Would you think that God is weak for choosing to respect the free will of humanity? That although he could destroy them, or he could choose to save them all, he has lifted Christ above the earth and proclaims through us, to have the world turn and believe and so be saved.

Personally, I find the arbitrary election of particular individuals to salvation and reprobation of the rest to be and intolerable belief (again no offense intended). It basically amounts to God doing it all for himself, for his own glory, that he basically kind of set up this whole thing to show how great he is. Meanwhile, he effectively and determinatively plans the immense suffering of billions of people. It seems capricious, not powerful. God is loving and responsible with his sovereignty, in that he rules and reigns wisely.