[_ Old Earth _] The Flaws of the Geologic Column (Timeline)

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Evo

... I would like to see this evidence actually. we take a literal view point of the bible and say that all living things were created at once, than we would see human remains buried with remains of dinosaurs and modern chicken remains next to that of a Priscacara liops. But we don't.

Actually you have a skewered understanding of scriptures.
We do not believe God created all living things at once.
The scriptures say that God created animals after their own kind. Therefore, He created for example, the first pair of dogs and from that first pair or kind, all other breeds were based.

Also, if I use your logic, then I guess bears, camels, cranes etc, etc, etc don't exist because we don't see humans buried with any other animals either.
Humans don't usually bury their dead with animals.

John

 

[Evointrinsic]

Sorry, by "at once" I meant all around 6000 years ago. If a person believes that the earth is 6000 years old, and we know how fossils are formed/preserved and why, then we would find human remains in the same sedimentary rock as we do dinosaurs. I don't literally mean directly next to a dinosaur.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Sorry, by "at once" I meant all around 6000 years ago. If a person believes that the earth is 6000 years old, and we know how fossils are formed/preserved and why, then we would find human remains in the same sedimentary rock as we do dinosaurs. I don't literally mean directly next to a dinosaur.

How are fossils formed and why Evo?

Bronzesnake

 

[Evointrinsic]

There are several processes that plants and animals or their parts can be preserved. No matter which way preservation occurs it takes a lot of luck, pure happenstance. Most living things are quickly recycled upon death. Scavengers and bacteria usually consume all but bones and shells.

Freezing (refrigeration)-This is the best means of preservation of ancient materials. It happens only rarely. The animal must be continually frozen from the time of death until discovery. That limits the possibilities to cold hardy animals from the last ice age. There have been remarkable discoveries of mammoth and wooly rhinoceros found in ice from Alaska and Siberia. Specimens with flesh, skin, and hair intact have been found. Some of these finds suggest that they were flash frozen, with food still in the mouth and stomach.

Drying (desiccation)- Mummified bodies of animals including humans have been discovered in arid parts of the world. The soft tissues including skin and organs are preserved for thousands of years if they are completely dried.

Asphalt- In what is now downtown Los Angeles lies a 23 acre park called The La Brea Tar Pits, officially Hancock Park. Within the park are over 100 pits filled with sticky asphalt or tar. The tar pits were formed by crude oil seeping through fissures in the earth. The lighter elements of the oil evaporate leaving thick sticky asphalt.

The pits are famous for the number and high quality of Pleistocene fossils that have been pulled from the pits. The fossils date between 10 and 40 thousand years old. Asphalt is an excellent preservative. Bones, teeth, shells, the exoskeletons of insects, and even some plant seeds have been pulled from the pits.

Amber- Insects, spiders, and even small lizard have been found, nearly perfectly preserved in amber. Picture this scenario: A fly lands on a tree branch in an area that is now the Baltic sea. While looking for food it steps in sticky sap that the tree has made to protect itself from fungal infection.

As the fly struggles to escape it becomes more and more entombed in the sap until it is completely engulfed and suffocates. The tree eventually dies and falls into the swampy water from which it grew. Over the course of millions of years the tree along with countless others becomes a coal deposit and the sap with our fly inside is polymerized and hardened into amber. As more time passes the coal bed is submerged as the sea level rises. Eventually the currents uncover the coal bed, slowly eating into the Surface, little by little. When the erosion reaches the amber it floats to the surface because it is lighter than the salty water. It is then washed ashore where it can be found.

Carbonization (distillation)- In this process of fossilization plant leaves, and some soft body parts of fish, reptiles, and marine invertebrates decompose leaving behind only the carbon. This carbon creates an impression in the rock outlining the fossil, sometimes with great detail.

Permineralization-This is the most common method of fossil preservation. Minerals fill the cellular spaces and crystallize. The shape of the original plant or animal is preserved as rock. Sometimes the original material is dissolved away leaving the form and structure but none of the organic material remains. For a detailed and illustrated description see How Are Fossils Formed? The Work of Ages.

Fossils have also been created by peat bogs, paraffin deposits, and volcanic ash.

http://www.fossils-facts-and-finds.com/how_are_fossils_formed.html

I'd also suggest reading this page as well http://www.fossils-facts-and-finds.com/fossil_formation.html

If you'd like more detailed information i can get you that as well, all in all it's the same information though.

 

[Crying Rock]

Barbarian observes:
Actually, not. The fossils originally were used by scientists (who were creationists) to date the rocks. They noted that certain fossils were always found in a certain level of the geologic column.

How about a source?

Sure. Look here:
http://www.geologyclass.org/correlation_concepts.htm

Sedgwick was a friend of Darwin's and took him on as a student before he wrote his book, but completely disagreed with Darwin's theory. And yet, here he was, using index fossils. Surprise.

[quote:2fc4j8v9]You see, I know for a fact that fossils are not only found at certain levels on the geologic column...

"...Barbarian observes:

...They noted that certain fossils were always found in a certain level of the geologic column... [/quote:2fc4j8v9]

Why do you think that is?

 

[Evointrinsic]

Crying rock, you really need to work on your quoting skills. I'm going to assume your referring to the last part of that quote where barbarian states:

...They noted that certain fossils were always found in a certain level of the geologic column...

In that case, please watch this entire video (It's about the great flood, but I'm not here to argue that, it gives very nice examples on why fossils are found in specific levels of the geologic column)

[youtube:jfegpv1f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSvktyxVYA&feature=related[/youtube:jfegpv1f]

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian on 19th century creationists:
They noted that certain fossils were always found in a certain level of the geologic column...

Why do you think that is?

Hint: It's the same reason you won't find a Cambrian rabbit or a Triassic triolobite.

 

[Pard]

Barbarian on 19th century creationists

Though I doubt they were called "creationists", those were the good days, before evolution reared its ugly, lying head...

 

[Barbarian]

Though I doubt they were called "creationists"

In a sense. The Seventh-Day Adventists had not yet invented YE creationism. Christians have always been OE creationists.

 

[jasoncran]

Though I doubt they were called "creationists"

In a sense. The Seventh-Day Adventists had not yet invented YE creationism. Christians have always been OE creationists.

provide evidence for this.

 

[Crying Rock]

Barbarian on 19th century creationists:
They noted that certain fossils were always found in a certain level of the geologic column...

Why do you think that is?

Hint: It's the same reason you won't find a Cambrian rabbit or a Triassic triolobite.

Would you expect to find any land dwelling organism in Cambrian strata?

 

[Barbarian]

Would you expect to find any land dwelling organism in Cambrian strata?

I wouldn't. But creationists would. They think it's all flood sediments. How about a trilobite in Triassic ocean sediments?

 

[Crying Rock]

Would you expect to find any land dwelling organism in Cambrian strata?

I wouldn't. But creationists would. They think it's all flood sediments. How about a trilobite in Triassic ocean sediments?

How about it? Do you know of any trilobite fossils that have been found higher in the geologic column than Permian deposits?

In what deposits are the earliest land dwelling organisms found?

 

[lordkalvan]

Though I doubt they were called "creationists", those were the good days, before evolution reared its ugly, lying head...

Evolution does not have a personality and is rather a theory that best explains the development of life on Earth, supported by a great deal of consilient evidence. Your assertion appears to be founded on dislike of this theory rather than on any reasoned analysis of it. Why this should make an era of less knowledge and understanding of the natural world in some way preferable to one in which that knowledge and understanding has been extended significantly, I don't know, but I am sure you are quite happy to decline any medical treatments and advances that are founded on the understanding and knowledge provided by evolutionary theory.

 

[lordkalvan]

...We do not believe God created all living things at once.
The scriptures say that God created animals after their own kind. Therefore, He created for example, the first pair of dogs and from that first pair or kind, all other breeds were based....

What do you mean by 'breed' and what do you mean by 'based'? These seem like rather vague terms. Are you arguing that all members of the family Canidae developed from the dog 'kind'? What evidence supports your argument either way?

So how many beetle 'kinds' did God create? How many spider 'kinds'? How many bacteria 'kinds'? How many bird 'kinds'?

 

[Barbarian]

How about it? Do you know of any trilobite fossils that have been found higher in the geologic column than Permian deposits?

According to creationism, there should be. But their absence in "flood deposits" that feature other marine invertebrates is a huge problem for YE.

 

[Crying Rock]

How about it? Do you know of any trilobite fossils that have been found higher in the geologic column than Permian deposits?

According to creationism, there should be. But their absence in "flood deposits" that feature other marine invertebrates is a huge problem for YE.

Again, you know I'm an OE proponent.

That's not the issue I'm debating.

In what environment do you think trilobites inhabited?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Tr ... tion_event

 

[Barbarian]

In what environment do you think trilobites inhabited?

Environments. There were deep-water ones, coastal ones, free-swimming ones, etc.

If you had been able to scuba dive during the Ordovician Period, some 450 million years ago, you would have seen at once that the seas swarmed with trilobites. A few trilobites were as large as dinner plates, many more were the size of modern shrimp, and yet others were smaller than peas. They lived almost
everywhere, from shallow waters to deep environments beyond the reach of light. There were spiny ones like fully laden pincushions and smooth ones looking rather like large pill bugs. Some carried strange colander-like brims, unlike any animal living today. Many had large and obvious eyes; others again
were blind.
http://www.cornellcollege.edu/geology/c ... obites.pdf

 

[Crying Rock]

In what environment do you think trilobites inhabited?

Environments. There were deep-water ones, coastal ones, free-swimming ones, etc.

If you had been able to scuba dive during the Ordovician Period, some 450 million years ago, you would have seen at once that the seas swarmed with trilobites. A few trilobites were as large as dinner plates, many more were the size of modern shrimp, and yet others were smaller than peas. They lived almost
everywhere, from shallow waters to deep environments beyond the reach of light. There were spiny ones like fully laden pincushions and smooth ones looking rather like large pill bugs. Some carried strange colander-like brims, unlike any animal living today. Many had large and obvious eyes; others again
were blind.
http://www.cornellcollege.edu/geology/c ... obites.pdf

Environment. Marine. Is sea level higher or lower than land? I can think of one exception: Death Valley. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[Barbarian]

Environment. Marine.

Which is like saying "Environment. Land."

Pretty much useless. Trilobites were benthic, nektonic, even sort of planktonic.