The Good News/The Bad News

[PeterJens]

Peter,

I'm still thinking through how faith relates to belief. Are they the same or are there differences. This is what I'm thinking on: Could belief and faith be slightly different terms. As an example, when Jesus told someone, "Your faith has made you well" faith was a gift from him (cf. Eph 2:8-9).

However, once that gift has been received by a person, is that now belief? I think of the times in the NT when Jesus said "your faith" or "their faith". However, it can't be self-generated faith, as faith is a gift from God (2 Thess 1:11 NIV).


So, does to believe mean that we accept the gift of faith extended by God, believing in Jesus for salvation, and demonstrate that belief by good deeds performed to demonstrate we have the genuine gift of faith and so believe, based on that faith?

I'm thinking through these options and your interaction and those by others have helped me do that. I'm not at a final decision yet.

Oz

You raise an interesting question about belief and faith.
There is another feature about belief. I can believe something is true, but it does not change my actions or is of benefit to me. If one believes in something, it is an active belief that results in an action.

So I can believe I breath in oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide. My belief does not change my breathing.
If I know a room has very low oxygen in it, my belief will lead to change of behaviour, avoiding the room or using breathing equipment, or airing out the room so the oxygen level is reasonable. This action could be read as me believing that I need the oxygen level to be reasonable to survive.

Consequential belief creates action, in a situation where belief may not be visible, ie. until the consequences come about one appears just like everyone else.

What is instructive to me way John the Baptist preaching was forgiveness of sins through the baptism of repentance. So an action was linked to forgiveness. John went further to say unless one showed the fruit of repentance it was worthless. One difficulty is we desire to separate belief from who we are and what we become. In our hearts we desire to be valued for our existence, rather than the consequences of our actions. A baby is loved for being ones child, not because they have done anything. But the fruit of ones life is the value of what one is.

I know I hate this idea of measuring or valuing things, but if the fruit of our lives is selfishness and death, surely that should be judged. If through Jesus and His work in our hearts is life and love, then surely that should be rewarded.
God puts a value on being a good servant who behaved responsibly with His gifts. To believe in Jesus is to open the door to all of this. It is embedded in the parables.

God bless you

 

[OzSpen]

You raise an interesting question about belief and faith.
There is another feature about belief. I can believe something is true, but it does not change my actions or is of benefit to me. If one believes in something, it is an active belief that results in an action.

So I can believe I breath in oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide. My belief does not change my breathing.
If I know a room has very low oxygen in it, my belief will lead to change of behaviour, avoiding the room or using breathing equipment, or airing out the room so the oxygen level is reasonable. This action could be read as me believing that I need the oxygen level to be reasonable to survive.

Consequential belief creates action, in a situation where belief may not be visible, ie. until the consequences come about one appears just like everyone else.

What is instructive to me way John the Baptist preaching was forgiveness of sins through the baptism of repentance. So an action was linked to forgiveness. John went further to say unless one showed the fruit of repentance it was worthless. One difficulty is we desire to separate belief from who we are and what we become. In our hearts we desire to be valued for our existence, rather than the consequences of our actions. A baby is loved for being ones child, not because they have done anything. But the fruit of ones life is the value of what one is.

I know I hate this idea of measuring or valuing things, but if the fruit of our lives is selfishness and death, surely that should be judged. If through Jesus and His work in our hearts is life and love, then surely that should be rewarded.
God puts a value on being a good servant who behaved responsibly with His gifts. To believe in Jesus is to open the door to all of this. It is embedded in the parables.

God bless you

Peter,

How, then, are you concluding with the relationship of faith to "I believe"?

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

Therefore, in my understanding, the root meaning of pistis and pisteuo is basically the same: "faith" and "I believe/I have faith". Both refer to "divine persuasion."

First,
thank you for helping me to better understand this subject.

Im struggling to understand your reasoning above. Pistis (faith)is the singular feminin noun in Greek. Faith in English is also a noun. (person, place or thing).

Pisteuo, (believe) as you stated above is a verb in the Greek language. In English, believe is also a verb which can be used either transitively or intransitive.

In the example you gave of John 3:16, the verb believe is transative. In other words, the object the verb believe points to is “him”. Put another way, the object of of believing is Gods Son. To break it down, Gods Son is the noun. Believing is the action being performed on the noun.

If I were to say, “I believe”, without an object to which apply my belief, the sentence, “I believe“ is incomplete.

If I were to say, “I have faith”, it would be considered a full sentence because faith is the object. I could just as easily say, “I have a ball” and be grammatically correct. Neither sentence describes the noun. For example, what kind of ball do I have? Similarly, what kind of faith do I have. Likewise, no action is taken on the nouns.

If you would, please help me understand your reasoning. I’m not understanding how you can say the root meaning of both these words are basically the same.

 

[stovebolts]

You raise an interesting question about belief and faith.
There is another feature about belief. I can believe something is true, but it does not change my actions or is of benefit to me. If one believes in something, it is an active belief that results in an action.

What your describing is the word believe being used transitively or intransitively.

Transitive and Intransitive Verbs—What’s the Difference?

The word transitive often makes people think of transit, which leads to the mistaken assumption…

www.grammarly.com

 

[OzSpen]

First,
thank you for helping me to better understand this subject.

Im struggling to understand your reasoning above. Pistis (faith)is the singular feminin noun in Greek. Faith in English is also a noun. (person, place or thing).

Pisteuo, (believe) as you stated above is a verb in the Greek language. In English, believe is also a verb which can be used either transitively or intransitive.

In the example you gave of John 3:16, the verb believe is transative. In other words, the object the verb believe points to is “him”. Put another way, the object of of believing is Gods Son. To break it down, Gods Son is the noun. Believing is the action being performed on the noun.

If I were to say, “I believe”, without an object to which apply my belief, the sentence, “I believe“ is incomplete.

If I were to say, “I have faith”, it would be considered a full sentence because faith is the object. I could just as easily say, “I have a ball” and be grammatically correct. Neither sentence describes the noun. For example, what kind of ball do I have? Similarly, what kind of faith do I have. Likewise, no action is taken on the nouns.

If you would, please help me understand your reasoning. I’m not understanding how you can say the root meaning of both these words are basically the same.

SB,

I'm simply giving you the etymology (derivation, root meaning) of "faith" and "believe".

The facts are that in Greek the root meanings of faith and believe come from peitho, which means “tried to convince” (Acts 18:4), “persuade, appeal to someone” (2 Cor 5:11), “conciliate, satisfy” (Matt 28:14), “depend on, trust in, put one’s confidence in” (Philm 21; Lk 11:22), “be convinced, be sure, certain” (Rom 2:19; Heb 13:18); in the passive voice, “be persuaded, be convinced, come to believe” (Luke 16:31; Heb 11:13); “obey, follow” (Rom 2:8; Gal 3:1); and “be convinced, certain” (Heb 6:9; Luke 20:6).

Let's see if we can find a couple examples in English where the roots apply but there can be slightly different meanings. However, mostly words with common root meanings are synonyms:

• "Cause" as a noun can use synonyms, effect, make, creation, production. The nouns "causal" and "causality" also have the same root as "cause". As a verb, "beget" has a similar root to "cause".
• "Justification" (Rom 5:18) has the same root as "justice" and "pronouncing righteous".

Like the noun, "faith" and the verb "to believe", the noun "justification" has a similar root to the verbal phrase, "pronouncing righteous".

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

I'm simply giving you the etymology (derivation, root meaning) of "faith" and "believe".

The facts are that in Greek the root meanings of faith and believe come from peitho, which means “tried to convince” (Acts 18:4), “persuade, appeal to someone” (2 Cor 5:11), “conciliate, satisfy” (Matt 28:14), “depend on, trust in, put one’s confidence in” (Philm 21; Lk 11:22), “be convinced, be sure, certain” (Rom 2:19; Heb 13:18); in the passive voice, “be persuaded, be convinced, come to believe” (Luke 16:31; Heb 11:13); “obey, follow” (Rom 2:8; Gal 3:1); and “be convinced, certain” (Heb 6:9; Luke 20:6).

Let's see if we can find a couple examples in English where the roots apply but there can be slightly different meanings. However, mostly words with common root meanings are synonyms:

• "Cause" as a noun can use synonyms, effect, make, creation, production. The nouns "causal" and "causality" also have the same root as "cause". As a verb, "beget" has a similar root to "cause".
• "Justification" (Rom 5:18) has the same root as "justice" and "pronouncing righteous".

Like the noun, "faith" and the verb "to believe", the noun "justification" has a similar root to the verbal phrase, "pronouncing righteous".

Oz

Let me see if I understand you.
Faith and believe are different words with different meanings and application both in the English language and within the Greek language.
However, in the Greek, both words share a common root from which both words derive.

When I think of the discipline within etymology, I think in terms of a family tree. In this case, Peitho assumes the role of parent while faith and belief are its children.

Within both the Greek and English, faith and believe are not considered synonyms, nor should they be used as such.

Is this an accurate summation?

 

[OzSpen]

Let me see if I understand you.
Faith and believe are different words with different meanings and application both in the English language and within the Greek language.
However, in the Greek, both words share a common root from which both words derive.

When I think of the discipline within etymology, I think in terms of a family tree. In this case, Peitho assumes the role of parent while faith and belief are its children.

Within both the Greek and English, faith and believe are not considered synonyms, nor should they be used as such.

Is this an accurate summation?

SB,

If you go to the Oxford English Dictionary and check the meaning of "faith", you will find it gives the synonyms of: "trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence, optimism, hopefulness, hope, expectation."

But you don't think faith and believe/belief are synonyms. The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees.

The Merriam-Webster American dictionary meaning of "faith" is "belief and trust in and loyalty to God."

Therefore, both British and American dictionaries have determined "faith" and "belief" are synonyms.

The same is true for the Greek synonyms of faith and belief. I've given you their etymology.

I prefer to use the analogy of the roots, trunk, and branches of trees. It is mango season here right now. I love the taste of Kensington Pride (Bowen) mangoes. The root, trunk, branches, leaves, flowers and fruit belong to the genus Mangifera. It doesn't matter whether the variety is Kensington Pride, Calypso, R2E2, Brooks, etc. They are all from the root/genus Mangifera. It would be false to say the Calypso mango is not from the genus Mangifera.

Also, I'm not convinced from the Greek genus/root that belief and faith have different meanings. However, I'm still thinking through and praying about what you've said.

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

If you go to the Oxford English Dictionary and check the meaning of "faith", you will find it gives the synonyms of: "trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence, optimism, hopefulness, hope, expectation."

But you don't think faith and believe/belief are synonyms. The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees.

The Merriam-Webster American dictionary meaning of "faith" is "belief and trust in and loyalty to God."

I‘ve got to be honest, it’s been well over 20 years since I’ve delved into etymology. Although I’m a lazy writer much of the time, I’ve spent hundreds of hours chasing down derivations and properly using them in sentences. From a textual exegesis point of view, it is invaluable. And that is what you and I are doing, we are exercising the principals and discipline of the fundamental building block for textual exegesis.

Given what you’ve provided in the quote above, we can focus on the Noun, Faith first. There are rules for using synonyms, and it is possible to choose the wrong synonym.

From the link you provided.

Choose the Right Synonym for faith​

Noun

BELIEF, FAITH, CREDENCE, CREDIT mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. BELIEF may or may not imply certitude in the believer. my belief that I had caught all the errors FAITH almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof. an unshakable faith in God CREDENCE suggests intellectual assent without implying anything about grounds for assent. a theory now given credence by scientists CREDIT may imply assent on grounds other than direct proof. gave full credit to the statement of a reputable witness.

A synonym for faith we might use would be Belief.

Click on the link for Belief, it is a Noun, not a Verb. Believe is a Verb, thus, Believe is not a synonym for faith. To use Believe and Faith synonymously would be incorrect.

Furthermore, the Verb Believe can be used two separate ways.
1. Transative.
2. Intransative

When a verb is used in a transative manner, it is all the more important to choose the correct synonym.

All words carry nuance, and choosing the correct word is imperative to a clear understanding of the idea being communicated. Using the wrong word effectively alters the subtle uniqueness of the idea being conveyed. Using a synonym can be an aid to better communicate the nuance of an over arching idea we are trying to communicate. In other words, the majority of the time synonyms are not always interchangeable. Use the proper synonym.

If we use the synonym belief for faith, we may loose the nuance of certainty, depending on context of course.

You claim certainty over the Greek language. When Peter gets out of the boat and takes his eyes of Jesus, Jesus replies, Ye of little faith. What Greek word is being used for faith? And does it carry the same nuance as belief in English? I’m intrigued what you find, and yes, I rather enjoy this.

 

[stovebolts]

But you don't think faith and believe/belief are synonyms. The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees.

I wanted to use the word faith and it’s synonym belief in a proper context. I do not agree that believe (verb) is a synonym for faith (noun).

My belief system is hinged upon the teachings of Christ. There are times I misunderstand these teachings and it causes me to reevaluate those teachings as I mature. As a result, my belief in the teachings of Christ will change to line up with Gods intended purpose.
However, while my belief changes, my faith remains anchored unwavering in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So one of the two statements is true:
1. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)
or
2. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS NOT SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)

If statement 1 is true then BELIEVE and FAITH are synonyms; else, they are not synonyms. (IMO)

Sure looks like they are synonyms to me.
Aside: Or the dictionary definitions are incorrect ... or my definition of "synonym" is incorrect or I made a typo.

-----------------

Definition of belief​

: something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed
Merriam-Webster

 

[PeterJens]

View attachment 10345

So one of the two statements is true:
1. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)
or
2. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS NOT SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)

If statement 1 is true then BELIEVE and FAITH are synonyms; else, they are not synonyms. (IMO)

Sure looks like they are synonyms to me.
Aside: Or the dictionary definitions are incorrect ... or my definition of "synonym" is incorrect or I made a typo.

-----------------

Definition of belief​

: something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed
Merriam-Webster

I got the translation of Tyndals bible, in old english, and it is obvious though to us language is rigid and defined with spellings one way only, in human history, language is fluid and it is the repeated use of the words in certain contexts that comes to define them within a culture. I have also come across believers who redefine the meaning of certain words into their framework, excluding other views and uses of the words.

Ultimately my concern is how God implements the meaning behind the words as representations of His communion and fellowship with us. We are born of God, born of the Spirit, which is His choice not ours. Jesus was very keen to tell the apostles they were chosen, not they found Jesus.

So however we define the words belief or faith, the Lord wants to emphasis it is His gift to us, purchased by His blood. I continually am reminded that it is His life in His words that inspires and drives me forward, not anything of myself, so He deserves all the honour. I am reminded though we desire many things, it is His will that prevails in all things.

Now imagine as we investigate a word, our very investigation changes how we use the word, so therefore we can only really comment on how it means to us at the moment. Jesus said some astounding things about belief, that belief defines our very reality, and within the Lords will we can obtain anything. It is ironic this is both freeing and limiting, freeing that the Lord will respond to our requests, limiting, we know most of what we ask for is based on non-spiritual outlooks.

A classic example of this is a compromised believer who thinks sinning is not an issue between Him and the Lord, when Jesus lays down the straight path to walk as testimony of knowing Him. It is exalting Gods grace in forgiving sinners, but declaring it is so ineffectual the believers life shows nothing as a result, which means it is powerless to make a difference. But then their view of belief is admitting the lostness of man, and God accepts them in their sin.

So for me the content of the word faith or belief is more critical than the discussion are they synonyms. I would propose many have touched faith but have nothing in their hearts and are clearly lost but can use scripture to support their position and make themselves feel secure.

God bless you

 

[stovebolts]

View attachment 10345

So one of the two statements is true:
1. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)
or
2. (Believe) accept (something) as true IS NOT SIMILAR TO complete trust in someone of something (Faith)

If statement 1 is true then BELIEVE and FAITH are synonyms; else, they are not synonyms. (IMO)

Sure looks like they are synonyms to me.
Aside: Or the dictionary definitions are incorrect ... or my definition of "synonym" is incorrect or I made a typo.

-----------------

Definition of belief​

: something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed
Merriam-Webster

Thankfully, the English language is not based on your logic.
You don’t have the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms. They are not. You don’t have the authority to change the mechanics of the English language.
Respectfully, we are all capable of misusing and misunderstanding the English language. We can even reason our mis-use and misunderstandings. However, when we violate the mechanical constructs of our language, we are in error.

As a side note, I’m going to assume you pulled your definitions from dictionary.com. Ahhh, the epitome of dumbing down the English language. But this does show how language changes. I believe a word can change meaning in about 40 years. I could be wrong.

I like the definition of belief from Webster that you posted as it shows the uncertainty contained within its meaning. Belief is something that is “considered” true. It’s an opinion which is held. There is a difference between something which is considered as true, or held as an opinion as true.

Tell me, is it your belief that Jesus died, was buried and rose from the grave? In other words, does Jesus raising from the grave depend on your belief?

belief carries the nuance of uncertainty. Faith carries the nuance of certainty. Each word carries a different nuance. Synonyms generally carry different nuances. We use synonyms to better express a thought or idea. A poor use of synonyms would be neglecting their nuance and using the wrong word just because we like the way it sounds. Another poor use would be to create synonyms to win a theological debate on an Internet forum lol.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Thankfully, the English language is not based on your logic.

Agreed. Thankfully, the English language is not based on your logic also. This is point that no one disagrees with ... surprised you bring it up.

You don’t have the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms.

Agreed. Same applies to you.

They are not.

Well, assuming you also don't have the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms ... I don't see why you make the statement.
I think we both agree neither one of us has the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms. That's why I used Google to get dictionary definitions. A dictionary is an authority on definitions, synonyms and such.

You don’t have the authority to change the mechanics of the English language.

Agreed. Covering the same ground here.

As a side note, I’m going to assume you pulled your definitions from dictionary.com.

I googled it.

But this does show how language changes. I believe a word can change meaning in about 40 years.

Agreed. Example: GAY
.... makes me wonder about the reliability of those that translated the original text or copies of original text or copies of copies of orginal text .... Hypothetical Example: Paul writes person is gay in a verse meaning happy. Greek word for GAY changes over 40 years to HOMOSEXUAL. Then in 100 A.D. someone gets a copy of Paul's letter. Did Paul mean GAY as in happy or homosexual. ... Granted, crude example and many other forces at work, context ... just making an observation. Not as if there was an updated Greek dictionary coming out every year to keep track of changes in meanings of words, or meanings within certain cultures. (All this being said, my knowledge is ... as you mentioned several times avoid, not AUTHORITATIVE, just thoughts)

... Also, a word may mean one thing in one culture and differ in another .. example: Hood (USA) or bonnet (UK) of a car

I like the definition of belief from Webster that you posted as it shows the uncertainty contained within its meaning. Belief is something that is “considered” true. It’s an opinion which is held. There is a difference between something which is considered as true, or held as an opinion as true.

agreed .... the big question in life ... WHAT IS TRUTH! Our faith says we believe Christ is the truth, but we see through a mirror dimly (well, I do).

Tell me, is it your belief that Jesus died, was buried and rose from the grave?

Yes

In other words, does Jesus raising from the grave depend on your belief?

No

belief carries the nuance of uncertainty. Faith carries the nuance of certainty. Each word carries a different nuance.

I would say BELIEF and FAITH both carry a certain amount of certainty and uncertainty; they are synonyms IMO. Most words have nuances. Your definition of most words will differ to varying degree from mine (mathematics, not so much I suppose)

Another poor use would be to create synonyms to win a theological debate on an Internet forum lol.

Agreed ... and just as true: it is a GOOD use to create synonyms to win a theological debate on an Internet forum lol.

Mark 9:24 24 Immediately the father of the boy cried out [with a desperate, piercing cry], saying, “I do believe; help [me overcome] my unbelief.”
A verse that, IMO, that equates the verb "believe" with the noun "unbelief". Granted, an antonym ... antonyms being the counterpart of synonyms ... well, you can figure it out (maybe)

Aside: How does it goes ... Literal, historical, grammatical interpretation. Hmm, I wish God's word was more systematic ... mathematics, now there is something not open to nuances IMO.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Agreed. Thankfully, the English language is not based on your logic also. This is point that no one disagrees with ... surprised you bring it up.


Agreed. Same applies to you.


Well, assuming you also don't have the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms ... I don't see why you make the statement.
I think we both agree neither one of us has the authority to decide that Faith and Believe are synonyms. That's why I used Google to get dictionary definitions. A dictionary is an authority on definitions, synonyms and such.


Agreed. Covering the same ground here.


I googled it.


Agreed. Example: GAY
.... makes me wonder about the reliability of those that translated the original text or copies of original text or copies of copies of orginal text .... Hypothetical Example: Paul writes person is gay in a verse meaning happy. Greek word for GAY changes over 40 years to HOMOSEXUAL. Then in 100 A.D. someone gets a copy of Paul's letter. Did Paul mean GAY as in happy or homosexual. ... Granted, crude example and many other forces at work, context ... just making an observation. Not as if there was an updated Greek dictionary coming out every year to keep track of changes in meanings of words, or meanings within certain cultures. (All this being said, my knowledge is ... as you mentioned several times avoid, not AUTHORITATIVE, just thoughts)

... Also, a word may mean one thing in one culture and differ in another .. example: Hood (USA) or bonnet (UK) of a car


agreed .... the big question in life ... WHAT IS TRUTH! Our faith says we believe Christ is the truth, but we see through a mirror dimly (well, I do).



Yes


No



I would say BELIEF and FAITH both carry a certain amount of certainty and uncertainty; they are synonyms IMO. Most words have nuances. Your definition of most words will differ to varying degree from mine (mathematics, not so much I suppose)


Agreed ... and just as true: it is a GOOD use to create synonyms to win a theological debate on an Internet forum lol.

Mark 9:24 24 Immediately the father of the boy cried out [with a desperate, piercing cry], saying, “I do believe; help [me overcome] my unbelief.”
A verse that, IMO, that equates the verb "believe" with the noun "unbelief". Granted, an antonym ... antonyms being the counterpart of synonyms ... well, you can figure it out (maybe)

Aside: How does it goes ... Literal, historical, grammatical interpretation. Hmm, I wish God's word was more systematic ... mathematics, now there is something not open to nuances IMO.

Oh, I don't know...there are nuances in math...

 

[Fastfredy0]

Oh, I don't know...there are nuances in math...

Hmmm, I suppose there may be an exception. I don't know of one. Give an example? The square root of -1 .... or the idea of infinity? Maybe the approximation or the number of significant digits to describe an amount, like the U.S. is 28 trillion when the amount to the exact penny could only be known by God.
My point was general: that math has few nuances to it, well language has many.

Aside: Even God can't count to infinity plus 1 IMO.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

0
We know that an integral domain RR is a UFD (unique factorization domain) if each nonzero, nonunit element of RR can be written as a product of irreducibles, and the factorization is unique if the following sense: If r=q1⋯qn=q′1⋯q′mr=q1⋯qn=q1′⋯qm′ (given two factorization of rr into irreducibles), then n=mn=m and for each ii there is jj such that aiai and ajaj are associates.
But does the converse also hold? Say, r=q1⋯qnr=q1⋯qn. If q′1⋯q′nq1′⋯qn′ is an element of RR such that q′1q1′ and q1q1 are associates, then q′1⋯q′n=rq1′⋯qn′=r. It it true, or no?
If (q′1)=(q1)(q1′)=(q1), then we can write q′1⋯q′nq1′⋯qn′ as u1⋯unq1⋯qnu1⋯unq1⋯qn(where uiui is a unit in RR such that qi=uiq′iqi=uiqi′).
And they are equal if an only if u1⋯un=1u1⋯un=1.
I see no reason for that to always hold. Is there one?

 

[PeterJens]

0
We know that an integral domain RR is a UFD (unique factorization domain) if each nonzero, nonunit element of RR can be written as a product of irreducibles, and the factorization is unique if the following sense: If r=q1⋯qn=q′1⋯q′mr=q1⋯qn=q1′⋯qm′ (given two factorization of rr into irreducibles), then n=mn=m and for each ii there is jj such that aiai and ajaj are associates.
But does the converse also hold? Say, r=q1⋯qnr=q1⋯qn. If q′1⋯q′nq1′⋯qn′ is an element of RR such that q′1q1′ and q1q1 are associates, then q′1⋯q′n=rq1′⋯qn′=r. It it true, or no?
If (q′1)=(q1)(q1′)=(q1), then we can write q′1⋯q′nq1′⋯qn′ as u1⋯unq1⋯qnu1⋯unq1⋯qn(where uiui is a unit in RR such that qi=uiq′iqi=uiqi′).
And they are equal if an only if u1⋯un=1u1⋯un=1.
I see no reason for that to always hold. Is there one?

It is interesting to me, how few believers understand truth ultimately is only definable in reference to an assumption or a position. Equally this position is external to ourselves and we can only over time gain deeper understanding of where we need to be.

Speaking generally can be confusing, but God is the reference point for everything and His nature. Everything we see and what we are is His creation. The rules, the consistency and inconsistency, the morality, the sense of guilt or freedom, all are His structure. It is not possible to objectify any of it, because He is the ultimate reference.

I find as an insecure fearful human this challenges my independence. I want to be able to stand back and test and be sure it is ok. I want also to be able to test the boundaries and see alternatives. But what I have discovered is the only reality is how far or close we are from Him and His principles define whether we live in peace or tumult.

Jesus's proposition is love working in community with boundaries rules everything and works, while satan declares self interest and domination is all that matters. The argument with Job is he was only interested with God because of the reward, not the innate love and truth involved. The conclusion is Job thought he understood the injustice of his position, and called it unfair, while in the end, Jobs walk was a walk of testimony to the power of righteousness over self interest. Our question is can love exist without paying a price? The answer is no, it costs or it has no value or rigidity. Life can only exist with rules and obedience to them.

So I realise my understanding of faith and belief changes as I draw closer to Jesus, so it is a daily experience, and words can only express some of where I am today, which will have shifted tomorrow. This sounds fluid, but nuance in situations can have profound affects.

A for instance of this was God expressing to Moses he would destroy Israel and make a nation out of Moses and his offspring. The sub text is did God express this so Moses could express the long term future of promise that Israel held, and maintain the promise, while bringing judgement on the current generation, 40 years in the desert. God is involved in community and calls us His family, His people, which is stunning, from beginning to end. And seriously do we expect God to do the exaggerated things we ask for, global peace, like tomorrow, as if this is possible. But particular situations, with a real door open, He does listen and respond. Now that is faith in action.

God bless you

 

[stovebolts]

Agreed. Thankfully, the English language is not based on your logic also. This is point that no one disagrees with ... surprised you bring it up.

If statement 1 is true then BELIEVE and FAITH are synonyms; else, they are not synonyms. (IMO)

Sure looks like they are synonyms to me.
Aside: Or the dictionary definitions are incorrect ... or my definition of "synonym" is incorrect or I made a typo.

Since we both agree neither of us have the authority to change the mechanics of the English language, then the burden is on you to show from a reputable dictionary that believe and faith are indeed synonyms.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have faith that my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have belief that my husband will drive me to the florist.

Am I getting to the florist in all 3 cases??

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Since you have access to the Internet, there's no need to purchase any volumes of the writings of the ECF. They are all available on the New Advent and CCEL sites for FREE.

I will not accept the view that God's gift of teachers (through commentaries) is not for the body of Christ. There are too many holes in that kind of theology that 'castrates' one of God's gift from the body.

Oz

Sorry if this is a repeat reply....I was offline for about 2 days.

I don't have anything against commentaries - this is not what I meant at all.

It's just that when reading a commentary, one will find differing opinions as to what a text means.
How would I know who is right UNLESS I already have some kind of understanding about what the bible
is about, the nature of God/Jesus, why the N.T. was written, etc.

You mentioned 1 Timothy 2:15.....women will be saved by childbirth.

I doubt anyone really knows what Paul meant by this... do we even have the correct wording??
A commentary will not help much since there is varying opinion.

But I do believe commentaries are necessary to fully understand the N.T.
or I should say: The writings of Paul.