The Good News/The Bad News

[stovebolts]

I believe my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have faith that my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have belief that my husband will drive me to the florist.

Am I getting to the florist in all 3 cases??

I suppose that all depends on your husband, doesn’t it?
Your first sentence denotes uncertainty. You suspect he will drive you, but there is a slight hesitation. Perhaps he is running errands and if he runs late, the florist my get pushed back, or perhaps a friend will take you.
Your second sentence is rooted in confidence. There is no doubt, regardless of any obstacles that your husband will drive you to the florist.
Your third sentence just feels like bad English. Regardless, beliefs can and do change.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is good news. Paul points out that Jesus is also bad news for those who are lost.

14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.
15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
1 Cor 2:14-16

Jesus and morality judges those who wish to exploit others for their own ends and they fight and resist those who desire for truthful living and open sharing, because they would then be discovered and everything they have gained would be lost.

Sorry for delay.
Good point !

For those reading along....
you meant 2 Corinthians 2:14-16

I wonder, though, are we a smell of doom to those perishing?
If we (those who preach or represent God in some way) were....then wouldn't some
fear set in and perhaps lead some to salvation?

I doubt that the atheists of today are worried about being doomed.

There are some who believe unless you fit a certain category you are lost.
This puts the focus not on getting right with God, but confirming you are chosen or not.
Some then conclude they are not chosen but doomed, which is ludicrous and not Gods good news.

In fact, doubt as to their salvation seems to be an ongoing problem within calvinism.
Since it is God that does the choosing - how can one be absolutely sure that he IS a chosen one?
Instead, if it is we that choose then we can be sure that, indeed, we have chosen.

Jesus's good news is there is hope for anyone who will listen, learn and follow, literally.
It is what He said. By listening, learning and following you show you are chosen and called.
In one sense without the Holy Spirit warming ones heart at these words, you would never know their reality.
So rather than a sense of disappointment, by just being sensitive to the offer, declares God is working in you.

Jesus's good news is He is there beside you, in every situation you face and has an answer that will resolve everything, not just a little, but eternally. It is so close, but to those who shut love out, so very far away. And there are folk this lost, to whom the message of love and acceptance is so impossible they regard it as just optimistic evil, leading to exploitation. I know this after having a pastor use these exact sentiments to me, which I understand emotionally 100% after living in an emotionally hidden family, but also I know it is a lie of the enemy to keep people captive.

God bless you

Agreed.
Christians that claim to love Jesus but do not love their neighbor do leave me with some doubt....
but it's not up to me to know their spirit/soul...I leave that to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I came across a fellow who disliked the calvanist boxes.
He proposed something that I had not quite seen before.

The verse saying we are predestined before the creation of the world can be taken to imply we individually, ie. by our names or predestined by our position in faith. One interpretation is fatalistic, ie. the outcome has no choice along the way, you are either set to heaven or hell, or the other is set, those of faith are predestined to glory.

I agree that we are predestined by our position in faith.
This is the good news. If we have faith,,,we will be saved.
If we do not have faith...we cannot be saved.
Of course, we differ on where this faith comes from and
whether or not we could reject it.

I believe God is not a fatalistic God.
Did He truly create us JUST for His own entertainment?
This is a question we need to ask.

Equally the Lord reacts to things and we stand outside, not knowing the why, how or cause. As outsiders can anyone judge justice or truth or reality other than trusting because we know the Lord we know it is just. Our very subjectivity means trust is the only game in town.

Agreed.
And we trust because we know He loves us.
Can anyone trust a God that shows no love?
I think not.

I have met very insecure people who we have both discussed with, who cannot cope with the idea of possible rejection, not actual rejection just the possibility of it. I know people like this. But you have to stand back and admit unbelief and a lack of faith does not justify the denial of being rejected by the Lords will. For the Lord to be sovereign, He holds the right to reject us, though He declares who and how He will honour His people.

Aha!
And here is the key.
God "declares who and how He will honour His people".
He does not leave us in the dark regarding our salvation.

But are you saying we could not have faith and be in unbelief and still be saved??
(regarding the possibility of rejection).

Some then say this creates conditions on God, earning salvation, which to me is absurd. It is like a child denying their parents love because they know if they continually rebel they will be cast aside. A heart desiring to follow and love will never be cast aside, which is exactly what God declares, but this involves our free will and hearts.

Agreed 100%.

We do not create conditions on God...
HE creates conditions on us...
which is why election is conditional.

One individual we conflicted with turns out to be a white supremacist, yet declares God accepts him in this position. To me this is a denial of the very foundation of me a lost sinner in need of love, forgiveness and salvation, to then declare by my birth I have more value than my brother or sister next to me. Arguing theology with such people seems empty, because their failure is deeply emotional and embedded in who they believe they are. I cannot see how they know the Jesus I know and for one moment feel and behave as they do.

They do not know the same Jesus you know.
It's impossible to love God and hate humans that were created by Him.
I hate what some humans do...but I also know it's satan at work in them.

It is with great sadness that faith needs a true emotional reaction in ones heart, or it is just wishful thinking.
I can judge no man, but maybe open a door for them to find Jesus. God bless you

:nod

 

[GodsGrace]

I suppose that all depends on your husband, doesn’t it?
Your first sentence denotes uncertainty. You suspect he will drive you, but there is a slight hesitation. Perhaps he is running errands and if he runs late, the florist my get pushed back, or perhaps a friend will take you.
Your second sentence is rooted in confidence. There is no doubt, regardless of any obstacles that your husband will drive you to the florist.
Your third sentence just feels like bad English. Regardless, beliefs can and do change.

LOL --

I tried to use the NOUN BELIEF in the 3rd sentence, keeping the same theme.

In the faith sentence, I do agree with you that it sounds like the most certain one.

As to "I believe my husband will drive me to the florist".
Isn't this the same as when we say even the demons believe?

There are different types of "believe".
When referring to scripture, isn't the use of the word BELIEVE the same a HAVING FAITH IN??

We all know that BELIEVE in the Greek means much more than just having a mental belief.

In my first sentence I meant BELIEVE in this manner....
but you took it as a mental belief.

Comment?

 

[stovebolts]

As to "I believe my husband will drive me to the florist".
Isn't this the same as when we say even the demons believe?

In the first sentence, the verb is transitive.
In the second sentence, the verb is intransitive.
Because the verb is being used differently in each sentence, they carry different thoughts. As a result, we cannot say the verb is conveying the same meaning in both sentences.

There are different types of "believe".
When referring to scripture, isn't the use of the word BELIEVE the same a HAVING FAITH IN??

No, Believe is a verb. It’s something you do. Faith is a noun, it’s something you have.

We all know that BELIEVE in the Greek means much more than just having a mental belief.

I wouldn’t say we all know. I do not know Greek.
If I recall, I believe OzSpen said the Greek word for believe was a feminine, singular verb. I had asked him to elaborate so I could better understand, but I haven’t received a reply that helps me better comprehend.

In my first sentence I meant BELIEVE in this manner....
but you took it as a mental belief.

I took your statement in regard to believing your husband would take you to the florist just as I described. When you say I took it as a mental belief, I’m not sure exactly what you mean, except to say that belief is a noun and can carry the same uncertainty as believe depending on how it’s used.

To avoid any uncertainty, the noun faith can be used as you used in your second sentence. Or, one can add an adverb to the verb, such as wholeheartedly.

I wholeheartedly believe my husband...

 

[Fastfredy0]

Since we both agree neither of us have the authority to change the mechanics of the English language,

Agreed.

then the burden is on you to show from a reputable dictionary that believe and faith are indeed synonyms.

Partially agree. The burden is upon both of us as you are also arguing your point based on a meaning from a reputable dictionary. The point of contention is the definition of BELIEF, BELIEVE and FAITH. I fulfilled the burden IMO by posting definitions via cut and paste. I can get exact references. I even went to a bible dictionary. Go to the Bible dictionary at: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/belief-believe.html and you will see ....


They don't even try to show the Belief/Believe are nuanced ... they just say SEE FAITH
In mathematical terms this means
BELIEF = FAITH and BELIEVE = FAITH

Aside: This is not rocket science (as opposed to using the GREEK)
Aside2: I grant BELIEVE is a verb and BELIEF and FAITH are nouns

In Christian parlance .... I BELIEVE, therefore I have FAITH .... or I have FAITH, therefore I BELIEVE

 

[Fastfredy0]

I believe my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have faith that my husband will drive me to the florist.
I have belief that my husband will drive me to the florist.

Am I getting to the florist in all 3 cases??

Depends on whether or not your belief (faith) is true. .... but the result will either substantiate or deny all three statements as BELIEVE, FAITH and BELIEF are equivalent.

Aside: My 'belief' is that you are going, but my faith is not as strong as yours.

 

[stovebolts]

Agreed.


Partially agree. The burden is upon both of us as you are also arguing your point based on a meaning from a reputable dictionary. The point of contention is the definition of BELIEF, BELIEVE and FAITH. I fulfilled the burden IMO by posting definitions via cut and paste. I can get exact references. I even went to a bible dictionary. Go to the Bible dictionary at: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/belief-believe.html and you will see ....

View attachment 10347
They don't even try to show the Belief/Believe are nuanced ... they just say SEE FAITH
In mathematical terms this means
BELIEF = FAITH and BELIEVE = FAITH

Aside: This is not rocket science (as opposed to using the GREEK)
Aside2: I grant BELIEVE is a verb and BELIEF and FAITH are nouns

In Christian parlance .... I BELIEVE, therefore I have FAITH .... or I have FAITH, therefore I BELIEVE

I do not consider that a reputable dictionary. It doesn’t even come close. Pathetic.
Like Strongs, it may be a good tool, but it’s lacking.
My assertion is believe and faith are not synonyms.
Websters gives synonyms for faith, and believe is not one of them.
Your assertion is that faith and believe are synonyms. The burden of proof is on you to show from a reputable dictionary that they are indeed synonyms.
You can’t, because they are not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I do not consider that a reputable dictionary. It doesn’t even come close. Pathetic.
Like Strongs, it may be a good tool, but it’s lacking.

Convenient response.

 

[stovebolts]

Convenient response.

And an accurate response. Who regulates their work? Who certifies their work? How can you know with certainty they are correct?
Is the test for what is true, what is correct based upon seeking out sources that meet our criteria and bias?
What is a dictionary anyway? What are the minimal requirements to ascribe the title of dictionary?

Tell me, do you agree with this? Is so, does biblegateway meet these requirements to be considered a dictionary?

Definition of DICTIONARY

a reference source in print or electronic form containing words usually alphabetically arranged along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactic and idiomatic uses… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of dictionary​

1: a reference source in print or electronic form containing words usually alphabetically arranged along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactic and idiomatic uses
2: a reference book listing alphabetically terms or names important to a particular subject or activity along with discussion of their meanings and applications
3: a reference book listing alphabetically the words of one language and showing their meanings or translations in another language
4: a computerized list (as of items of data or words) used for reference (as for information retrieval or word processing)

 

[GodsGrace]

In the first sentence, the verb is transitive.
In the second sentence, the verb is intransitive.
Because the verb is being used differently in each sentence, they carry different thoughts. As a result, we cannot say the verb is conveying the same meaning in both sentences.




No, Believe is a verb. It’s something you do. Faith is a noun, it’s something you have.


I wouldn’t say we all know. I do not know Greek.
If I recall, I believe OzSpen said the Greek word for believe was a feminine, singular verb. I had asked him to elaborate so I could better understand, but I haven’t received a reply that helps me better comprehend.

I took your statement in regard to believing your husband would take you to the florist just as I described. When you say I took it as a mental belief, I’m not sure exactly what you mean, except to say that belief is a noun and can carry the same uncertainty as believe depending on how it’s used.

To avoid any uncertainty, the noun faith can be used as you used in your second sentence. Or, one can add an adverb to the verb, such as wholeheartedly.

I wholeheartedly believe my husband...

I'm not sure this is worth discussing further.

I'll only say again that in biblical terms BELIEVE means more than just mental assent.

I BELIEVE MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ME TO THE FLORIST...

is as certain as I HAVE FAITH THAT MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ME TO THE FLORIST.


The difference is due to the fact that we use the word BELIEVE in a different way.
I was not referring to the grammar of the words...

 

[GodsGrace]

Depends on whether or not your belief (faith) is true. .... but the result will either substantiate or deny all three statements as BELIEVE, FAITH and BELIEF are equivalent.

Aside: My 'belief' is that you are going, but my faith is not as strong as yours.

Do you agree with my above post, 491, as to the Greek meaning of belief?
Sorry, the post was prior to 491....

Please see 484....would you agree as to the Greek meaning of BELIEVE being different than the English meaning?

 

[stovebolts]

The difference is due to the fact that we use the word BELIEVE in a different way.
I was not referring to the grammar of the words...

So, your saying grammar isn’t important? Your saying that you can improperly use an English word and when your misunderstood, you push fault on others who have a proper understanding of the usage of said words?

Intent is very important, and I’m glad God looks at our hearts. Everyone, including myself misuses words. We often struggle to find the right words and we need to find more words to clarify our previous words.

Let me just say this. I understand your intent. However, your understanding of the basic meaning of Faith and Believe are lacking and incorrect according to the basic mechanics of the English language and how Webster’s dictionary defines both words and their uses. The two are not interchangeable. When you treat both words with the same exact meaning, you do a disservice to the English language. You also propagate misinformation and cause confusion through misunderstandings.

I don’t make the rules on the English language, but I do try to follow them.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Bible is to the theologian what nature is to the scientist, a source of unorganized or only partly organized facts out of which he formulates his generalizations. As it is unsafe for the scientist to draw conclusions before he has made a sufficient number of inductions, so it is unsafe for the Bible student to formulate doctrines out of isolated or insufficient proof-tests. Nowhere is this principle more important than in the study of the doctrine of salvation, for in no field are there more differences of opinion and in no study are the conclusions more far-reaching. Henry Thiessen

 

[stovebolts]

"Truth does not become more true if the whole world were to accept it; nor does it become less true if the whole world were to reject it." --- Maimonides

John 14:6 Jesus replied, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, your saying grammar isn’t important? Your saying that you can improperly use an English word and when your misunderstood, you push fault on others who have a proper understanding of the usage of said words?

Intent is very important, and I’m glad God looks at our hearts. Everyone, including myself misuses words. We often struggle to find the right words and we need to find more words to clarify our previous words.

Let me just say this. I understand your intent. However, your understanding of the basic meaning of Faith and Believe are lacking and incorrect according to the basic mechanics of the English language and how Webster’s dictionary defines both words and their uses. The two are not interchangeable. When you treat both words with the same exact meaning, you do a disservice to the English language. You also propagate misinformation and cause confusion through misunderstandings.

I don’t make the rules on the English language, but I do try to follow them.

I've been required to follow them more than you do.

Calm down for goodness sakes.

YOUR talking about grammar....
I'M talking about the difference between the English use of the word BELIEVE and the Greek usage.

Also, you're putting words into my mouth and this is not appreciated.
And I never push fault on anyone.

I hope you're not having a bad day....

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible is to the theologian what nature is to the scientist, a source of unorganized or only partly organized facts out of which he formulates his generalizations. As it is unsafe for the scientist to draw conclusions before he has made a sufficient number of inductions, so it is unsafe for the Bible student to formulate doctrines out of isolated or insufficient proof-tests. Nowhere is this principle more important than in the study of the doctrine of salvation, for in no field are there more differences of opinion and in no study are the conclusions more far-reaching. Henry Thiessen

How come you're not on my side of the fence?!
LOL

 

[Fastfredy0]

How come you're not on my side of the fence?!
LOL

What side it that? I lost track. The FAITH = BELIEVE 'thing'? That has become tedious.

Aside: By default, you are usually correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

What side it that? I lost track. The FAITH = BELIEVE 'thing'? That has become tedious.

Aside: By default, you are usually correct.

LOL
NO...I'm not interested in that either....
I mean the side that states we choose to be saved
when we meet God's conditions.
?

 

[Fastfredy0]

NO...I'm not interested in that either....
I mean the side that states we choose to be saved
when we meet God's conditions.

Hmm, you would have to expound on the statement before I took sides.

You're a synergist and I am a monergist, so chances are we are divided.