The gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace, is there a difference

[Jethro Bodine]

48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He (JESUS) said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:48-50 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

See? No gospel of works here. He taught the same gospel of salvation through the forgiveness of sin as Paul did later.

Even John the Baptist taught that:

76“And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS;

77To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
By the forgiveness of their sins,

78Because of the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Sunrise from on high will visit us "
(Luke 1:76-78 NASB bold mine)

 

[dirtfarmer]

He is the messiah to the all not just the Jews..

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

You know that Cyrus was called messiah in Isaiah 45:1, don't you?
Isaiah 45:1 " Thus saith the LORD to his anointed(messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:

 

[dirtfarmer]

So now, we don't have to endure to the end?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Am I to believe that you believe that salvation can be lost?

 

[reba]

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

You know that Cyrus was called messiah in Isaiah 45:1, don't you?
Isaiah 45:1 " Thus saith the LORD to his anointed(messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:

I do not see your connection to 2 gospels ?

 

[civilwarbuff]

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

You know that Cyrus was called messiah in Isaiah 45:1, don't you?
Isaiah 45:1 " Thus saith the LORD to his anointed(messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:

It has more meanings than messiah depending upon who is being addressed.....
H4899
מָשִׁיחַ
mâshı̂yach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.
Total KJV occurrences: 39

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Am I to believe that you believe that salvation can be lost?

Oh, boy......look out.

Enduring to the end signifies that you have the justification that comes by faith apart from works.

14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB)

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The person who stops holding fast the word of the gospel either never believed unto salvation in the first place, or they have abandoned the faith somewhere along the line. Born again people do not continue in their sin (1 John 3:9 NASB). Going back to your sin (not enduring to the end) signifies that you do not have the faith that justifies and are no longer born again by the Spirit, or simply never have been.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Am I to believe that you believe that salvation can be lost?

No, I know exactly where and Who Salvation is.

I do believe, that if a person decides to turn away from Salvation, then God does not force them to keep believing anymore than He forced them to initially believe.

Do you believe God forces people to believe?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Oh, boy......look out.

Enduring to the end signifies that you have the justification that comes by faith apart from works.

14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB)

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The person who stops holding fast the word of the gospel either never believed unto salvation in the first place, or they have abandoned the faith somewhere along the line. Born again people do not continue in their sin (1 John 3:9 NASB). Going back to your sin (not enduring to the end) signifies that you do not have the faith that justifies and are no longer born again by the Spirit, or simply never have been.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 " Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and whereby ye stand. By which ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believe in vain."

The "believing in vain has to do with some not believing that Jesus was resurrected, not that they had stopped believing that Jesus was Christ the savior. In verse 13 " but if there be no resurrection of the dead": verse14 " if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." : verse 17 " And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain, and ye are yet in your sins."

1 Peter 1:5 " Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

 

[dirtfarmer]

No, I know exactly where and Who Salvation is.

I do believe, that if a person decides to turn away from Salvation, then God does not force them to keep believing anymore than He forced them to initially believe.

Do you believe God forces people to believe?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

You will have to that question yourself. Did God force you to believe? or was it because of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit? Did you not have the power to refuse the Spirit's conviction.?

1 John 2:19 " They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not of us."

You can argue with scripture, but this says that they never had faith to begin with.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

You will have to that question yourself. Did God force you to believe? or was it because of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit? Did you not have the power to refuse the Spirit's conviction.?

1 John 2:19 " They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not of us."

You can argue with scripture, but this says that they never had faith to begin with.

I know the answer to the question.

I'm not arguing with scripture at all. I was simply asking you a question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "believing in vain has to do with some not believing that Jesus was resurrected, not that they had stopped believing that Jesus was Christ the savior.

I'm not saying it does.
What I'm saying is exactly what Paul says: "(Y)ou are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). If you stop holding fast you cease to be saved.

1 Peter 1:5 " Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

"through faith".
You failed to emphasize the exact argument being made--that it is through faith that one is kept by the power of God and stays saved. OSAS is all about the power of God but then ignores the condition for having that power--the condition of a continuing faith.

1 John 2:19 " They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not of us."

You can argue with scripture, but this says that they never had faith to begin with.

If it is only the ones who don't really have faith that fall away, why does John just a couple of verses later warn these believers to not deny Christ like those who left did, and instead to continue (abide) in Christ?

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:19-24 NASB)

I don't think it fair or right for OSAS to strip verse 19 away from the context of everything John says there in chapter 2 that shows that it isn't only those who 'didn't really' believe to begin with that fall away. He's making a very clear warning to anointed, saved believers who know the truth not to also deny Christ and stop abiding in him. The condition for not losing your salvation is that you continue in the word by which you were first saved.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Faith isn't something you can turn on or off with a switch. It's from God. You cannot keep having faith. If you don't have faith, you never had it.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Faith isn't something you can turn on or off with a switch. It's from God. You cannot keep having faith. If you don't have faith, you never had it.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

I agree with you 100%. We either have faith or we don't. Romans 1:16-17 states: " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith."

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm not saying it does.
What I'm saying is exactly what Paul says: "(Y)ou are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). If you stop holding fast you cease to be saved.


"through faith".
You failed to emphasize the exact argument being made--that it is through faith that one is kept by the power of God and stays saved. OSAS is all about the power of God but then ignores the condition for having that power--the condition of a continuing faith.


If it is only the ones who don't really have faith that fall away, why does John just a couple of verses later warn these believers to not deny Christ like those who left did, and instead to continue (abide) in Christ?

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:19-24 NASB)

I don't think it fair or right for OSAS to strip verse 19 away from the context of everything John says there in chapter 2 that shows that it isn't only those who 'didn't really' believe to begin with that fall away. He's making a very clear warning to anointed, saved believers who know the truth not to also deny Christ and stop abiding in him. The condition for not losing your salvation is that you continue in the word by which you were first saved.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

There is nothing about "holding fast in 1 Corinthians 15:2. It is stated "ye have believed in vain" but that is about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul in verse 10 says that the grace of God was not bestowed on him in vain. Paul believed in the "resurrected Christ" therefore he had not believed in vain.

We have had this discussion before therefore I will not enter into a discussion about vain belief.

 

[JLB]

there is one gospel the Gospel of Jesus the Christ

 

[Papa Zoom]

dirtfarmer here

There is division between believers, most say that the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God are one in the same. What do you believe concerning this, is the gospel of the kingdom different from the gospel of the grace of God?

Tell me what you think. There is but one Gospel. But this Gospel is about both the Kingdom of God and of God's grace to man.

 

[Nathan]

Faith isn't something you can turn on or off with a switch. It's from God. You cannot keep having faith. If you don't have faith, you never had it.

Do you think someone can abandon their faith?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Do you think someone can abandon their faith?

Well, I've seen it happen but then I wonder if their faith was real. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Tell me what you think. There is but one Gospel. But this Gospel is about both the Kingdom of God and of God's grace to man.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

As I understand there are several gospels, but only one way to be saved, and that is by faith. Scripture states: "the just shall live by faith"

How was Noah saved, by believing the gospel of the kingdom? NO, Noah was saved by faith. When God told Noah you have 120 years to build an ark as I will describe to you. Noah was saved because he believed God, to me that is faith. The gospel(good news) that God gave Noah was not about an earthly kingdom, but about a 40day and night rain from heaven which had never happened before. But, Noah believed God when he told him that water is going to fall from the sky.

Abram's name was changed to Abraham. Abraham was counted righteous(saved) because God told him to leave the country and his kindred unto a land that he would show him. By faith Abram looked for a city built by God and wandered all his life.

John preached baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Paul preached salvation by faith in the crucified Christ and his resurrection.

All these gospels(good news) had one thing in common, FAITH. We are saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ.
Noah was saved by FAITH. He built the ark
Abram was saved by FAITH. He left his country and his kindred and wandered all his life looking for a city build by God.

Salvation has always been by faith, never by works.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well, I've seen it happen but then I wonder if their faith was real. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

Scripture says that it wasn't real .