The gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace, is there a difference

[dirtfarmer]

Here is another thought for ya Dirtfarmer. Consider Paul. Did he repent before or after Jesus called him and blinded him? Yet even though Jesus streightened Paul away from his Sin and turned him to Jesus's ministry; at least once in his letters Paul refers to himself as the greatest of all sinners. This shows that indeed Paul turned to Jesus and repented of his sins and was remorsefull of them.

hello Not_Now.Soon

Here is another thought for ya Dirtfarmer. Consider Paul. Did he repent before or after Jesus called him and blinded him? Yet even though Jesus streightened Paul away from his Sin and turned him to Jesus's ministry; at least once in his letters Paul refers to himself as the greatest of all sinners. This shows that indeed Paul turned to Jesus and repented of his sins and was remorsefull of them.

hello Not_Now.Soon, dirtfarmer here

I find it hard for Paul to think that he was "the worse sinner ever". What he is stating in 1 Timothy 1:15 the pattern (protos- first in time) of those that would be saved by grace. Do you really believe that Paul considered himself a "worse" sinner than Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, or Haman that tried to have all Jews killed. What about Ahab and Jezebel.

Consider what he wrote in Philippians 3:5-6 " Circumcised the eighth day; of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, prosecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

If he thought the he was the "chief of sinners" then why did he pin the 1st verse of 1 Corinthians 11: "Be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ".

 

[civilwarbuff]

Each of us is the "chief of sinners" which is why we need our Messiah.......

 

[Nathan]

This is where an understanding of the term "sinners" comes into play. He wasn't speaking of himself in the present tense in regards to that passage.

 

[Soul man]

dirtfarmer here

There is division between believers, most say that the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God are one in the same. What do you believe concerning this, is the gospel of the kingdom different from the gospel of the grace of God?

Absolutely two different messages, most respond with the pat answers your getting. They have nothing to do with each other, there will come a day I believe when people willbegin to read their bibles like they are written and enough of the man made doctrinal division.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Absolutely two different messages, most respond with the pat answers your getting. They have nothing to do with each other, there will come a day I believe when people willbegin to read their bibles like they are written and enough of the man made doctrinal division.

hello Soul man, dirtfarmer here

When the Spirit convicts them of that then there will be a deepening of their belief and others things of scripture will open to them.

God blessed you and will continue to open scriptures that many others are missing blessing from.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

hello Not_now.Soon, dirtfarmer here

Happy Easter to you also.

Does, "Christ died for the sin of the whole world", mean that when a believer sins that they are held against them, or does it mean that the penalty of sin has been paid and there is no condemnation. It is my belief that unbelief is the only sin that brings condemnation and that is only after we physically dies still in unbelief.

When a person believes they are "delivered from the kingdom of darkness and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son." This delivery and translation establishes a relationship with the Father that consist of fellowship. When we are overtaken in a fault the relationship is not severed but fellowship is broken. To restore fellowship we must confess ( say the same as God) that fault and fellowship is restored.

To restore the fellowship, it sounds like you have to turn from the sin. (Confess the fault sounds super close to repent, the difference sounds like it's whether a person confesses and God comes back into their life, or if they turn from that fault/sin.) I bring this up because I don't want the conversation to lead to smantics if the behavior we see is the same,

To me I think the main thing is turning to God. Which sounds like it's the big point to you to. To only not believe is the din that counts.

I think the stronger language of repent, not just confess because that was a big aspect to Jesus's teachings and healings.

 

[ezra]

To restore the fellowship, it sounds like you have to turn from the sin. (Confess the fault sounds super close to repent, the difference sounds like it's whether a person confesses and God comes back into their life, or if they turn from that fault/sin.) I bring this up because I don't want the conversation to lead to smantics if the behavior we see is the same,

To me I think the main thing is turning to God. Which sounds like it's the big point to you to. To only not believe is the din that counts.

I think the stronger language of repent, not just confess because that was a big aspect to Jesus's teachings and healings.

Godly sorrow brings repentance . when was the last time we was sorrowful for what we did a broken and contrite spirit

 

[dirtfarmer]

To restore the fellowship, it sounds like you have to turn from the sin. (Confess the fault sounds super close to repent, the difference sounds like it's whether a person confesses and God comes back into their life, or if they turn from that fault/sin.) I bring this up because I don't want the conversation to lead to smantics if the behavior we see is the same,

To me I think the main thing is turning to God. Which sounds like it's the big point to you to. To only not believe is the din that counts.

I think the stronger language of repent, not just confess because that was a big aspect to Jesus's teachings and healings.

hello Not_Now,Soon, dirtfarmer here

To me "to turn from the sin" sounds as if that is practicing sin, I don't find that a believer can practice sin, but they can stumble or be overtaken by a fault. If sin is a habit that we continually do, I don't find that salvation has occurred.

As believers we have already turned to God from sin, that is why we must confess sin as soon a we realize that we have sinned.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Godly sorrow brings repentance . when was the last time we was sorrowful for what we did a broken and contrite spirit

Use to ne more often then not. Grown up a bit, and not in that mindset as much, but I'd still say for me it's often enough.

For me the harder scripture to apply has been to have confidance and assurance in our faith.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

hello Not_Now,Soon, dirtfarmer here

To me "to turn from the sin" sounds as if that is practicing sin, I don't find that a believer can practice sin, but they can stumble or be overtaken by a fault. If sin is a habit that we continually do, I don't find that salvation has occurred.

As believers we have already turned to God from sin, that is why we must confess sin as soon a we realize that we have sinned.

Alright. That set of logic is the puzzle piece needed to make more sense of all of that. Not sure what to say about it though. But I think I'm happy to go on the idea that God's wisdom is better then man's. To trust His understanding and not think that our salvation is based on our correct understanding of His saving grace.

That logic has helped me a lot to continue to try to follow God, believe in Him, and do as I think is right. Without worrying that my doctrine is right. The main part is right.

 

[Soul man]

Alright. That set of logic is the puzzle piece needed to make more sense of all of that. Not sure what to say about it though. But I think I'm happy to go on the idea that God's wisdom is better then man's. To trust His understanding and not think that our salvation is based on our correct understanding of His saving grace.

That logic has helped me a lot to continue to try to follow God, believe in Him, and do as I think is right. Without worrying that my doctrine is right. The main part is right.

Not everyone can be as perfect as me (where's that darn smiley button) I understand that.
I understand sin is an issue, it's not that hard to figure out when you live for God. I also believe that the message that is preached alot in mainstream is against sin. Where I personally see a problem with that is; it's hearers get a message of sin.
We have come full circle in a since, that the oldtime religion as its known had what was referred to as a "whipping post."
You knew you had to show up, whether Sunday night or Wednesday night, and get your beating.
The whipping post was the pulpit, the preacher would thrash the folks with the letter of the law.
The saying was "they preached Hell so hot, you could feel the flames," that is hard preaching.
They would close with an altar call and it didn't matter what they said, filling the altar was priority.
That was the response they were looking for.
To be an AG preacher you had to be able too preach for two hours.
The test was you went before the board and preached, if you could preach for two hours, you were in, you qualify. Plus all the other qualifications, rules, by laws, that you had to live up to before you could even go before the board.
I have many stories, sorry dirtfarmer didn't mean to derail. I thought maybe some of our younger bible scholars we have in here might enjoy an old story.
I preached with many of the oldtimers that preached with AA Allen, Jack Cole, AB Smith, Leroy Jenkins, Paul Cunningham, Oral Roberts and R W Shambach.
If you're not familiar with what is referred to as the "Healing Revival," you can watch it on tape.
Gene .....a black man, I can't remember his last name, but he led AA Allen song service. He wore a Robe, he would start to dance and all you could see was his feet kicking out from under the Robe.
The Anointing was so strong you can feel it even on tape.
They rolled in sawdust in those old tents and Brush Arbors, tears flowed down their faces, stinging their cheeks.
They loved God, and that's what they knew, they were in revival.
Allen had 5 Semi trucks just to carry his folding chairs. 20,000 seat tent.
One preacher told me when radio first hit and got big for preachers, he got a little P O Box and went on air.
First time he went to check his mail,, his box was full and a note in there said 'come to the front desk we have the rest of your mail.' That was probably sometime in the 40's.

 

[Edward]

Almost every day...

 

[Nathan]

hello Not_Now,Soon, dirtfarmer here

To me "to turn from the sin" sounds as if that is practicing sin, I don't find that a believer can practice sin, but they can stumble or be overtaken by a fault. If sin is a habit that we continually do, I don't find that salvation has occurred.

As believers we have already turned to God from sin, that is why we must confess sin as soon a we realize that we have sinned.

You must be careful in this logic. The most - absolute #1 - deceiving sin, is that of which you do not see sin for what it is. Pride.

To think that a believer cannot fall into a habit of sin, and then if one finds themselves in it, to think that it means they never had faith.......that's dangerous.

No, a believer cannot keep on sinning. But a believer will constantly be shown his/her sin. It does a believer no good, and only brings in doubt, to think that him/her will be perfect in their life.

I find it interesting that people who do not believe in turning from faith, see the those who do believe you can, as detrimental to a persons salvation. Yet to say that if a believer finds themselves in habitual sin - they never were really a believer to begin with?

What's worse;

1. To understand what you believed, and that you are walking away from it?

or

2. To think that faith is something different than what you thought it was?

For me, #2 would be worse. If I truly believed that God gave me faith, gave me His Spirit, and then along the way I was shown sin - habitual sin - and I started doubting that God had really given me faith to believe - I might look for another way to believe. What disaster awaits us who think we can do something else than to receive the gift of God, or worse yet, deny that God gave us the gift in the first place.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You must be careful in this logic. The most - absolute #1 - deceiving sin, is that of which you do not see sin for what it is. Pride.

To think that a believer cannot fall into a habit of sin, and then if one finds themselves in it, to think that it means they never had faith.......that's dangerous.

No, a believer cannot keep on sinning. But a believer will constantly be shown his/her sin. It does a believer no good, and only brings in doubt, to think that him/her will be perfect in their life.

I find it interesting that people who do not believe in turning from faith, see the those who do believe you can, as detrimental to a persons salvation. Yet to say that if a believer finds themselves in habitual sin - they never were really a believer to begin with?

What's worse;

1. To understand what you believed, and that you are walking away from it?

or

2. To think that faith is something different than what you thought it was?

For me, #2 would be worse. If I truly believed that God gave me faith, gave me His Spirit, and then along the way I was shown sin - habitual sin - and I started doubting that God had really given me faith to believe - I might look for another way to believe. What disaster awaits us who think we can do something else than to receive the gift of God, or worse yet, deny that God gave us the gift in the first place.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I appreciate your concern. Assurance of salvation is not prideful but what is prideful is to continue in sin when you understand that you have sin in your life and continue living in that sin. Scripture states that if you are a child of God he will chasten you to remove the impurities. When God brings to mine those things that are sinful and you refuse to confess those, I find it hard to believe that you love God.

What I find hard to believe is that a person understands what God has accomplished thru Jesus Christ and then turns his back and refuses God offer of salvation. If we truly understand the love that God has and has shown to us, how is it possible to look for another way and be a believer? To me that is a description of a person still in UNBELIEF.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I appreciate your concern. Assurance of salvation is not prideful but what is prideful is to continue in sin when you understand that you have sin in your life and continue living in that sin. Scripture states that if you are a child of God he will chasten you to remove the impurities. When God brings to mine those things that are sinful and you refuse to confess those, I find it hard to believe that you love God.

What I find hard to believe is that a person understands what God has accomplished thru Jesus Christ and then turns his back and refuses God offer of salvation. If we truly understand the love that God has and has shown to us, how is it possible to look for another way and be a believer? To me that is a description of a person still in UNBELIEF.

I share your hard belief of who would turn their back on God. It does not make sense at all. In fact, I would have to say I do not know how I did it myself.

I did though. I hardened my heart to Him for a period of time in my life. For someone to tell me that I was not "saved" during that time is asinine. I know what faith I had been given, and who it came from. I knew I was grieving the Holy Spirit. I was in complete willful and deliberate sin.

It all came to a point though. I had to choose, I remember having to make the conscience choice, was I going to keep in it and turn my back on God, or was I going to turn away from it to God.

How I came to the decision I did was simple. If I decided to keep my back turned to God I had to deny the power of the Holy Spirit. If I was going to continue in sin, I had to deny that He saved me from the power of sin. If I was going to continue to willfully sin, it meant that I chose it over the freedom Christ gives. I remember knowing that I had to make a choice to abandon the faith that God gave me, or to continue in it by turning from sin.

That's the problem. Believers should know that Christ triumphed over sin, but at the same time we must not think that sin cannot still deceive. I never have come across a NT teaching that blew sin off as a moot issue to the believer - as if its a laughable subject. I assure you, it is not, and for good reason.

Assurance of your salvation is prideful. Assurance of Salvation in Him is not prideful.

1Co 10:1-14
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Pride blinds us. Think about it. It blinded Lucifer, who was in the very presence of God. It blinded Adam and Eve, again, people who walked with God. They are the ONLY humans ever to walk with God in completeness, yet pride separated them from Him.

Pride can blind us to the truth. There is a significant difference in confidence in Salvation, and pride in your salvation - however, the two often get mixed up. One relies on Christ the other on yourself.

Pride, which is not faith, comes in and says "you can have confidence in your salvation because you believed, and the Bible says whoever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life". Sounds right doesn't it? So did the serpents statement - "you shall not surely die".

Faith, which is assurance and true confidence, says "you can have confidence in Salvation because you believe, and the Bible says that whoever believes will have everlasting life".