The Great Tribulation

[Highway54]

Mathew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Many people dont understand what tribulation Christ is speaking of in this verse.
He is speaking of the tribulation suffered by the saints .It's their persecution for following Christ and testifying of him.

Luke 21:12
But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.


The great tribulation takes place after this persecution.The saints that have survived through the persecution are delivered at the time of the great tribulation when the stars fall from the sky.The dead in Christ are raised at that time . Those who have not repented of their sins and took part in the persecution of the saints are punished at this time.This is the time of God's wrath.

Many people dont understand what tribulation Christ is speaking of in this verse.
He is speaking of the tribulation suffered by the saints .It's their persecution for following Christ and testifying of him.

Hi Shi, all people alive will undergo this tribulation, including Christians

The saints that have survived through the persecution are delivered at the time of the great tribulation when the stars fall from the sky.

Yes I agree they are delivered when God sends His forces to rescue them when He cuts the days short as Jesus said at Mat 24:22

The dead in Christ are raised at that time

We believe the first resurrection has already occurred (Rev 20:6) because of what is stated at 1 Cor 15: 51,52 and 1 Thes 4:15-17. It is a difficult subject and we may very well be in error, I cannot say since they are resurrected to heaven it is not visible to us. But that is the record of the account in the Bible that shows the raising of those dead in Christ.

They will definitely all be changed when Mat 24:22 is fulfilled.

 

[Edward]

We believe the first resurrection has already occurred (Rev 20:6) because of what is stated at 1 Cor 15: 51,52 and 1 Thes 4:15-17. It is a difficult subject and we may very well be in error, I cannot say since they are resurrected to heaven it is not visible to us. But that is the record of the account in the Bible that shows the raising of those dead in Christ.

How can that be? Apparently we agree that there are two resurrections. One resurrection unto life and a 2nd resurrection unto death. Let's look closer at

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

Riddle me this. The two bold print sentences. When Jesus returns, He will have the believers who have died with Him, right? (v14).

Ok.

But when he comes back two verses later it says the Believers who have died will rise from their graves! Ask yourself how it is possible to rise from your grave when you are with Jesus coming back?

The answer is, when you die, your soul goes to be with the Lord and your body goes to the grave. This passage is rapture scriptures.

First (before the great tribulation & wrath of God) Jesus comes in the air for the church. We get raptured and go to heaven with Him. And we come back with Jesus at His 2nd coming. This is after the great tribulation and there is no resurrection at that time but we do know that many will be saved during the tribulation because John saw the souls of them that were martyred under the throne! Not people. Souls. How long until you avenge us, Lord? After the last Martyr has died. Most if not all people who get saved during the tribulation will be martyred.

Anxious to see if you can answer my question.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Hi Shi, all people alive will undergo this tribulation, including Christians

Yes I agree they are delivered when God sends His forces to rescue them when He cuts the days short as Jesus said at Mat 24:22

We believe the first resurrection has already occurred (Rev 20:6) because of what is stated at 1 Cor 15: 51,52 and 1 Thes 4:15-17. It is a difficult subject and we may very well be in error, I cannot say since they are resurrected to heaven it is not visible to us. But that is the record of the account in the Bible that shows the raising of those dead in Christ.

They will definitely all be changed when Mat 24:22 is fulfilled.

Those resurected in the first resurrection are not resurected into the sky.
They are resurected into the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

I would be traveling east myself to get to the kingdom of heaven where Abraham ,Issac and Jacob will be at that time.And they are not in the sky either.

 

[Edward]

Those resurected in the first resurrection are not resurected into the sky.
They are resurected into the kingdom of heaven.

Almost. But we do meet the Lord in the air, and then we go to heaven. For the marriage supper of the Lamb. With Abraham and Issac and Jacob...!

Then we the saints which are in heaven with Him, return to the earth when Jesus returns.

I Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

 

[dwb001]

Almost. But we do meet the Lord in the air, and then we go to heaven. For the marriage supper of the Lamb. With Abraham and Issac and Jacob...!

Then we the saints which are in heaven with Him, return to the earth when Jesus returns.

I Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

There is no timeline in the quoted verse.
So the "rapture" you are quoting could happen before, during or after the Tribulation or the Millennium for that matter.

 

[Edward]

There is no timeline in the quoted verse.
So the "rapture" you are quoting could happen before, during or after the Tribulation or the Millennium for that matter.

It said we eat a feast in Heaven with Abraham, Issiac and Jacob, right?

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven./

We know it is before the great tribulation. When Jesus said this in scripture, Abraham was already long dead. So it is prophetical or to hapen in the future. Make sense?

All of it from the great tribulation and on up to where we go to where the New Jerusalem come down and then we dwell there with God. it's all on a timeline through prophecy. Many things have to happen before Jesus returns to earth for judgement. They have to institute the mark of the beast, many famines and pestelinces and the abomination of desolation. After the abomimation of desecration, it will be 1260 more days until Jesus returns.

In this timeline in scripture when are we supposed to go have a feast with Abraham? It would have to be before the tribulation! The rapture is the only thing that we don't know when it is coming.

If you want to read the timeline, some is Daniel and some is in Revelation. All of that was put forth in the rapture thread. Perhaps a rereading of that woud refresh your memory?

The timeline is there for everything except the Rapture, oh and it doesn't really say when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb happens, but that is certainly a feast and in heaven. The Marriage supper feast will be happening at the same time that the tribulation is happening on earth.

Consider it this way,
I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2-3)
For God has not appointed us to Wrath. (1 Thess. 5:9)
“Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.../ (Isaiah 26:20)

That's all scripture. Hide from what indignation? The Great Tribulation. Why go into your chambers and shut the door? That is about a traditional Hebrew wedding, what happens. They get married and then they go into the Bridal chamber for 7 days and don't come out. Sound familiar yet? You can't have a Marriage Supper of the Lamb without a Marriage, right?

This can not happen post great trib or post millenium, or it would say something about it in the prophetical timeline.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Almost. But we do meet the Lord in the air, and then we go to heaven. For the marriage supper of the Lamb. With Abraham and Issac and Jacob...!

Then we the saints which are in heaven with Him, return to the earth when Jesus returns.

I Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

That's not what revelation says.
Revelation says those resurected saints reign with Christ upon earth for 1000 years.It says nothing about them flying away into the sky.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



Unless you think Gog and all the sinners fly away into heaven too,your narrative doesn't fit.Christ and the resurected saints are upon earth in order for Gog and his numerous army to compass the camp of those resurected saints .
Ezekiel 38 corresponds to this as the resurected saints rise from their graves in Ezekiel 37 and Gog invades the land of Israel in chapter 38.

 

[Edward]

I disagree. I believe the place of Death and Hell are still active.
My belief is based on Rev 1:18 and other places where Jesus says He has the keys to hell and death. Why having the keys to an empty room would be important enough to mention, I don't know.

The place of death is still active. It is Abrahams Bosom that is not active anymore. Jesus did not take the condemned out of Hades, he took the Believers.

This is really the first time you are asking for my opinion. Or so it feels to me.
So why should I do anything but ask questions of your opinion?
I am getting to know what/why you believe what you do and if you can back up your claims.
Now if you were to ask me some questions... maybe I would answer you and explain my possition.

Well I'm getting pretty tired of your answers being based on opinion which you make no effort to provide support to with scriptures or such, It's like you wont even try to treat the subject even semi academically. So what's the point? Why should I continue to even answer you and write it all out for you only for you to ggive it an, Huh-Uh!! With no backing. That seems like a waste of my time with you.

That's fine. If you don't have an answer that is alright.
If you are just choosing not to answer... then that is on you.

Right. I have given you plenty of answers to which your response is to ignore what I said or to just quote dwb001 1:1 "Huh-Uh!!" and somehow you think that will suffice. Choose what you want to believe but why should I even answer you if you're going to act like that? You almost have me convinced that talking to you is an inefficient use of time.

 

[dwb001]

The place of death is still active. It is Abrahams Bosom that is not active anymore. Jesus did not take the condemned out of Hades, he took the Believers.

Source?
What is your response to Jesus having the keys to Death and Hell?
The fourth horseman is followed by the fifth. Death and Hell.
Rev 20:13 "Death and Hell gave up the dead that were in THEM" so there are two places with dead in them.

Well I'm getting pretty tired of your answers being based on opinion which you make no effort to provide support to with scriptures or such, It's like you wont even try to treat the subject even semi academically. So what's the point? Why should I continue to even answer you and write it all out for you only for you to ggive it an, Huh-Uh!! With no backing. That seems like a waste of my time with you.



Right. I have given you plenty of answers to which your response is to ignore what I said or to just quote dwb001 1:1 "Huh-Uh!!" and somehow you think that will suffice. Choose what you want to believe but why should I even answer you if you're going to act like that? You almost have me convinced that talking to you is an inefficient use of time.

If the answer I give is not sufficient for you... ask a followup question.
That is how conversation works.
If I give a short answer it is because I believe that it is sufficient.
Brevity is my style. So ask a question in good faith... and if I can I will answer it.

 

[Edward]

Source?
What is your response to Jesus having the keys to Death and Hell?
The fourth horseman is followed by the fifth. Death and Hell.
Rev 20:13 "Death and Hell gave up the dead that were in THEM" so there are two places with dead in them.

If the answer I give is not sufficient for you... ask a followup question.
That is how conversation works.
If I give a short answer it is because I believe that it is sufficient.
Brevity is my style. So ask a question in good faith... and if I can I will answer it.

It's in your Bible. You could always reread the rapture theads to find it as I have posted it before.

Right, Huh-Uh is not a sufficient answer for me. Ask a question in good faith? Ok. Will you go back through my posts and answer the many questions that I have already asked you before I ask you more?

I'm guessing your answer will be, Huh-Uh. Have a nice day Bro.

 

[dwb001]

It's in your Bible. You could always reread the rapture theads to find it as I have posted it before.

This thread is the Trib not the Rap.
Please keep to the lane we are in.

Right, Huh-Uh is not a sufficient answer for me. Ask a question in good faith? Ok. Will you go back through my posts and answer the many questions that I have already asked you before I ask you more?

I'm guessing your answer will be, Huh-Uh. Have a nice day Bro.

I have scrolled back and don't see any questions I didn't answer.
Yes I will answer your questions... but no I am not going to search for them.
I did try to look... but nothing jumped out.

So any question you ask next I will answer... honestly and thoughtfully.
How is that for a deal?

 

[Edward]

This thread is the Trib not the Rap.
Please keep to the lane we are in.

I have scrolled back and don't see any questions I didn't answer.
Yes I will answer your questions... but no I am not going to search for them.
I did try to look... but nothing jumped out.

So any question you ask next I will answer... honestly and thoughtfully.
How is that for a deal?

Deal. But I have to take care of something right now.

 

[Highway54]

How can that be? Apparently we agree that there are two resurrections. One resurrection unto life and a 2nd resurrection unto death. Let's look closer at

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

Riddle me this. The two bold print sentences. When Jesus returns, He will have the believers who have died with Him, right? (v14).

Ok.

But when he comes back two verses later it says the Believers who have died will rise from their graves! Ask yourself how it is possible to rise from your grave when you are with Jesus coming back?

The answer is, when you die, your soul goes to be with the Lord and your body goes to the grave. This passage is rapture scriptures.

First (before the great tribulation & wrath of God) Jesus comes in the air for the church. We get raptured and go to heaven with Him. And we come back with Jesus at His 2nd coming. This is after the great tribulation and there is no resurrection at that time but we do know that many will be saved during the tribulation because John saw the souls of them that were martyred under the throne! Not people. Souls. How long until you avenge us, Lord? After the last Martyr has died. Most if not all people who get saved during the tribulation will be martyred.

Anxious to see if you can answer my question.

Hi Ed. Will do my best sir:

First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

Riddle me this. The two bold print sentences. When Jesus returns, He will have the believers who have died with Him, right? (v14).

Jesus returned to heaven to sit at his Fathers right hand for a period of time. Those who go to be with Jesus started being gathered on Pentecost of the year 33 CE, who were baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming born again. They would be gathered until the final sealing of them occurred just prior to Jesus' return, which you commented on. You mentioned how some of them would be with him, as I mentioned as well, this would indicate that the first resurrection of them had happened at some point prior to his return logically. Now if that resurrection has already happened, anointed ones still die, therefore like mentioned Pauls commenting about them being changed in the twinkling of an eye comes into play 1 Cor 15. Then like you said in 1 Thes the remainder of them who are still alive when Jesus returns, will be "raptured" to meet him in the air, thus completing their heavenly reward.

It may require some thought but there are three phases of gathering the holy ones, the first resurrection, those who die between the first resurrection, and they the "rapturing" of those remaining when he returns. Make any sense Ed?

I think you actually understand it by your comment, but haven't quite put it together yet as the three phases to completion of the gathering of the "saints".

 

[Highway54]

Those resurected in the first resurrection are not resurected into the sky.
They are resurected into the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

I would be traveling east myself to get to the kingdom of heaven where Abraham ,Issac and Jacob will be at that time.And they are not in the sky either.

Those of the first resurrection are resurrected to heaven, redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and Priests of the Kingdom Shi. Rev 20:6

 

[dwb001]

Those of the first resurrection are resurrected to heaven, redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and Priests of the Kingdom Shi. Rev 20:6

Wow... everything in the first part 20th chapter of Revelation is on Earth.
Not resurrected to heaven... but to an Earthly Kingdom of Jesus for 1000 years.
As the book says.
You are adding to the words of Revelation... careful of Rev 22:18-19.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Those of the first resurrection are resurrected to heaven, redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and Priests of the Kingdom Shi. Rev 20:6

So where are you going to add your prophecy of going to heaven to the prophecy in revelation 20?
Exactly between which verses does your prophecy go?

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Highway54]

Wow... everything in the first part 20th chapter of Revelation is on Earth.
Not resurrected to heaven... but to an Earthly Kingdom of Jesus for 1000 years.
As the book says.
You are adding to the words of Revelation... careful of Rev 22:18-19.

May I ask where Jesus was resurrected to Dw? Where do those who are redeemed from the earth go to when they are resurrected?: Re 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, [even] they that had been purchased out of the earth.

You are very perceptive of realizing that most humans will inherit the earth, but they are not part of the first resurrection recorded in Rev 20:6 rather they are the ones who come to life at the end of the thousand years of verse 5

 

[Highway54]

So where are you going to add your prophecy of going to heaven to the prophecy in revelation 20?
Exactly between which verses does your prophecy go?

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Wow, I was asked that by another person Shiloh, my answer is in post 200. I will say you are quite perceptive about realizing there will be people on earth.

 

[dwb001]

May I ask where Jesus was resurrected to Dw?

I don't know where Dw is... but Jesus was resurrected to Earth.
He walked in the garden, visited the upper room and ate fish with the boys.
That stuff was on the Earth.

Where do those who are redeemed from the earth go to when they are resurrected?:

To Earth.
All part of that first resurection.

Re 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, [even] they that had been purchased out of the earth.

And there seems to be a bit of confusion between the redeemed and the 144k.

You are very perceptive of realizing that most humans will inherit the earth, but they are not part of the first resurrection recorded in Rev 20:6 rather they are the ones who come to life at the end of the thousand years of verse 5

Right.
After the 1000 years we have the Rapture event with the Great White Throne and some resurrect to life eternal and some to the Lake of Fire.
Then we are all caught up into the air as the Old Earth gets consumed and we come back down to the New Earth and enter into God's rest.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Wow, I was asked that by another person Shiloh, my answer is in post 200. I will say you are quite perceptive about realizing there will be people on earth.

Nearly the entire Bible says there will be people on earth including those who reign with Christ in the Lord's land.

Ever since Abraham was promised that land 1000s of years ago for an everlasting possession.God will keep his promise he made to Abraham.

Genesis 17:8
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Everlasting is a mighty long time.Abraham will dwell in Canaan for that amount of time.